Engine won't shut off (actually, ignition won't)

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Engine won't shut off (actually, ignition won't)

November 15, 2016, 10:46:59 am

I took the coach down to get inspected.
The inspector said start the engine, the headlights aren't on. I did, they did.

Tried to turn engine off. Returned switch to OFF position and nothing happened.
Turned to ACC position - engine still ran.

Thought maybe fuel solenoid stuck. Tried percussive adjustment(PA) with end of screwdriver to no avail.

Turned ignition briefly to start and starter kicked and engine stopped. Thought it was fixed...
On the way home though maybe I hadn't giver start-up process time to finish and all would now be well.

[Possible false trail... While trying to get the engine to stop I thought the light above the 'Raise' button on the HWH panel was bright white. While driving home and now there is no light. Though sun was causing reflection. ]

Got home.
Leveled the coach.
Turned ignition off
ENGINE STILL RAN.

Again 'Turned ignition briefly to start and starter kicked and engine stopped.'
But!!! idiot lights on information bar still on and bell ringing.

I pulled the kick panel in front of the passenger seat and applied PA to the solenoid to no avail.

I will disconnect start batts .

Diagnosis?
Suggestions?
TIA

Re: Engine won't shut off (actually, ignition won't)

Reply #1 – November 15, 2016, 11:37:46 am

You can manually stop the engine (8.3 cummins mechanical) by pulling on the fuel shutoff on the side of the injection pump.

Re: Engine won't shut off (actually, ignition won't)

Reply #2 – November 15, 2016, 11:41:35 am

R+R Ignition Switch, they really do go bad.

Re: Engine won't shut off (actually, ignition won't)

Reply #3 – November 15, 2016, 11:42:31 am

While running disconnect the electrical connection at the shutoff solenoid. There is a spring inside that will stick if broken. If it does not die with no 12 V there, that is most likely your problem.

Re: Engine won't shut off (actually, ignition won't)

Reply #4 – November 15, 2016, 01:10:55 pm

With Barry's (of Barry and Cindy) and David Abel's help I have narrowed my perception of the problem down to the ignition switch (thanks NancyS).

I finally found the schematic which contained the ignition switch.(IS) (see below)

I had already managed to shutoff the engine.
When I disconnected the wire from the IS to the ignition solenoid the annunciator turned off and the idiot lights turned off.
Reconnecting resumed the behavior.

Deciding that I have already played with live 12v circuits more than I want to my next step is to disconnect the chassis battery bank.
In order to do that I'll have to first disconnect the Trickl-Start device .

Then replace the ignition switch.

Re: Engine won't shut off (actually, ignition won't)

Reply #5 – November 15, 2016, 01:16:49 pm

Elliott,

Here is the important part of your diagnostics: "When I disconnected the wire from the IS to the ignition solenoid the annunciator turned off and the idiot lights turned off. Reconnecting resumed the behavior. "

Yes, if the ignition switch is supplying 12 VDC to the ignition solenoid signal terminal, even with the key/switch in the off position, the switch is the issue.

If turning off the key/switch cut 12VDC to the ignition solenoid signal terminal, then the likely culprit would be the ignition solenoid sticking. "Percussive adjustment" of the ignition solenoid would likely clear this up short term.

Re: Engine won't shut off (actually, ignition won't)

Reply #6 – November 16, 2016, 11:16:31 pm

As it turns out so far, the problem appears to be much more complicated.

I got a new ignition switch and key set from O'Reilly's for $33 and finished installing it this morning.
A couple of things I learned:

Read the write-ups on Beamalarm.com

you can take the assembly out the top and then take the plug out

Reread and don't just say "Oh, I get that"

I also learned that replacing the switch didn't solve the problem!!

Lets look a little deeper...
The ignition solenoid is behind the kick panel in front of passenger seat.
It has 4 posts, the two big ones, one on each side for power in and power out.
The two small ones in the middle are ground and the line(s) that 'trigger' the solenoid to pass current between the outer ones.

On my coach there are three wires to the 'trigger':
wire #103 connecting the ignition switch
wire #19, the fuel solenoid holding coil
and wire #21 somehow associated with the remote starter button in the back of the coach.

When energized by voltage on one of the small wires the solenoid kicks off the start sequence and when the voltage goes away the fuel shut-off solenoid drops and stops the engine. Except that when I turned the ignition switch to off the engine kept running.
The engine wouldn't shut off until I momentarily hit the starter. But even then the bell would still ring and the idiot lights were still on.

Barry and I spent some 20 minutes on the phone talking through the circuits and (me) moving wires around. He is a wonder!!

Back to the discourse.
I found that I could pull the lines off the 'trigger', disengaging the solenoid and shut both the engine and the bell off.
It wasn't sufficient to just remove wire 103, the wire from the switch to the solenoid.
We determined that some other source was keeping one of the lines hot and hence keeping the circuit open.

I had to break for an assigned task but during that time Barry had continued to look at the circuit diagrams and sent me a lengthy missive tracing out the remote starter path. To quote a portion of his email to me "... if you disconnect the wire #21 ... maybe your problems will go away..."

Lo and Behold!! I connected just lines #103 and #19 and not only did the engine start but it also STOPPED!!

For now I am going to give the problem a rest but I don't like to leave puzzles unsolved.
If you would get out your circuit diagrams and don your thinking caps maybe you can solve it first.

HTH

Re: Engine won't shut off (actually, ignition won't)

Reply #7 – November 16, 2016, 11:49:51 pm

You need to see Drawing A-4752, Remote Start. I don't have that diagram in my book. I think George and Steph have a copy for the '97 U270 - should be the same for your coach. I've never really looked closely at my remote start panel, but the way I understand it is you turn your ignition key (up front) to "ON", then push the "START" button in the engine compartment and the engine starts. The remote start button is a momentary switch, and should be hot only as long as you hold it down. To shut the engine down, you go back up to the front and turn the ignition key to "OFF". I think this is how it works...but I could be wrong.

IF this is the correct sequence, then I suspect in your case the push to "START" button in your engine compartment is stuck (or corroded) in the "closed" position, and that circuit is hot all the time. When you turn your ignition key to "OFF", because the remote start wire is still HOT, the ignition solenoid will not "release" and stays activated. Removing wire 21 BL breaks the connection between the faulty switch and the main ignition solenoid.

I would check both terminals on the remote start push button switch and see if they are both "HOT" all the time. If so, the switch is defective and should be replaced.

That is my guess.

Re: Engine won't shut off (actually, ignition won't)

Reply #8 – November 17, 2016, 07:13:30 am

Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie – November 16, 2016, 11:49:51 pm

You need to see Drawing A-4752, Remote Start. I don't have that diagram in my book. I think George and Steph have a copy for the '97 U270 - should be the same for your coach. I've never really looked closely at my remote start panel, but the way I understand it is you turn your ignition key (up front) to "ON", then push the "START" button in the engine compartment and the engine starts. The remote start button is a momentary switch, and should be hot only as long as you hold it down. To shut the engine down, you go back up to the front and turn the ignition key to "OFF". I think this is how it works...but I could be wrong.

My 1997 has a stop push button also on panel in engine compartment. So I can start and stop, as long as key it turned to run.

Re: Engine won't shut off (actually, ignition won't)

Reply #9 – November 17, 2016, 08:20:27 am

Assuming the remote start switch in the engine room is OFF, I would disconnect the 21 wire back there and connect it up front to see if the problem still exists.

The remote start switch is in a pretty protected place, but certainly more exposed than if inside the coach. It may be shorted out.

Re: Engine won't shut off (actually, ignition won't)

Reply #10 – November 17, 2016, 09:24:23 am

Quote from: turbojack – November 17, 2016, 07:13:30 am

My 1997 has a stop push button also on panel in engine compartment. So I can start and stop, as long as key it turned to run.

You forced me to run out and look at the remote start panel in our coach (photo below). Yep, you're correct - mine has a ENGINE ON/OFF toggle switch which (I suppose) performs the same function as your STOP push button. Like I said, I've never really paid any attention to this panel, or it's function. Now I am gonna have to get out there today and play with it, to figure out exactly how it works and interacts with the ignition switch up front.

BUT, my "guess" as to the cause of Elliott's problem remains the same, except now I'll amend it to say one of the switches on his panel is stuck or shorted so that it is sending continuous 12V to the ignition solenoid via wire 21.

(Please excuse my horrible looking engine compartment insulation - replacing it is on my "To Do" list, and getting closer to the top)

Re: Engine won't shut off (actually, ignition won't)

Reply #11 – November 17, 2016, 10:56:24 am

Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie – November 17, 2016, 09:24:23 am

You forced me to run out and look at the remote start panel in our coach (photo below). Yep, you're correct - mine has a ENGINE ON/OFF toggle switch which (I suppose) performs the same function as your STOP push button. Like I said, I've never really paid any attention to this panel, or it's function.

On Grand Villas, there is no remote stop engine. That switch only allows you to START the engine from the back with the key on. To shut the engine down you need to turn the key off. Foretravel engineering.

At least on mine, that's how it is.

Re: Engine won't shut off (actually, ignition won't)

Reply #12 – November 17, 2016, 05:02:38 pm

Quote from: Twig – November 17, 2016, 10:56:24 am

On Grand Villas, there is no remote stop engine. That switch only allows you to START the engine from the back with the key on. To shut the engine down you need to turn the key off. Foretravel engineering.

At least on mine, that's how it is.

I can start and stop mine from the back without a key in ignition....I wonder if I could drive it that way, or is it wired to the transmission selector pad and will shut down if trying to move the coach.

Re: Engine won't shut off (actually, ignition won't)

Reply #13 – November 17, 2016, 05:17:24 pm

Try to drive away without ignition key, that way you will know how much risk the coach is in. I think that our rear start panel is seldom needed and puts us at risk. Depending where the ignition source wire is connected, it may be possible to start without ignition key by jumping the start button to a source of power. Never used our rear start/stop panel in 16 years.

Re: Engine won't shut off (actually, ignition won't)

Reply #14 – November 17, 2016, 05:41:56 pm

Quote from: Barry & Cindy – November 17, 2016, 05:17:24 pm

Try to drive away without ignition key, that way you will know how much risk the coach is in.

We have a "secret switch" that has to be activated, with the ignition on, in order to start the engine from either bow or stern. The PO explained it me, but I've forgotten why he installed the switch. What I do know, is NO ONE can steal this coach. The lag, was,after we bought her, is I'd forget "the switch" and think, "now what?".

Re: Engine won't shut off (actually, ignition won't)

Reply #15 – November 17, 2016, 05:56:23 pm

Mike,

The now "not so secret" switch is to provide the Allison ECM with clean power-- a direct line from the chassis battery through the switch and directly to the Allison ECM. No noise from other items on the same circuit. Early Allison computers were not happy with noise on their 12 VDC lines. Things like dash fans can make a lot of "noise".

Re: Engine won't shut off (actually, ignition won't)

Reply #16 – November 17, 2016, 06:07:45 pm

Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie – November 16, 2016, 11:49:51 pm

You need to see Drawing A-4752, Remote Start. I don't have that diagram in my book. I think George and Steph have a copy for the '97 U270 - should be the same for your coach. I've never really looked closely at my remote start panel, but the way I understand it is you turn your ignition key (up front) to "ON", then push the "START" button in the engine compartment and the engine starts. The remote start button is a momentary switch, and should be hot only as long as you hold it down. To shut the engine down, you go back up to the front and turn the ignition key to "OFF". I think this is how it works...but I could be wrong.

Chuck,

I have the same remote panel as yours. No ignition key is needed. When you flip the switch up you'll hear the clunk of the solenoids and the red oil light comes on. I wait about 10 seconds and then push the button till it starts. After starting the red light goes off in a few seconds. Flip the switch down and it shuts off. I never tried to drive it this way without the key in the ignition. I suppose you could. Alton at FOT told me he could drive it off that way!

Here's a jpeg of A-4792 remote start wiring diagram. It's different than the setup that we have but you could probably figure out how ours is wired from the drawing. I can send you a copy if you need it.

Jerry

Re: Engine won't shut off (actually, ignition won't)

Reply #17 – November 17, 2016, 08:42:44 pm

Jerry,

Thanx for the info! I didn't get out to the coach today - had other "Honey Do's" to tend to. Tomorrow I will give your procedure a try, and verify it works on our coach. Don't know if I'll ever have any need to use the panel, but it's nice to know how to operate it, just in case.

It seems even among the GV owners, there is some confusion about how this panel works (or is supposed to work).

I won't need you to send me a copy of the diagram - the jpeg is fine. I'll add a hard copy to my Owner's Manual for future reference.

But enough about all us spectators! Where is Elliott, and what was the resolution of his original complaint?

Re: Engine won't shut off (actually, ignition won't)

Reply #18 – November 17, 2016, 10:21:28 pm

Quick status report:
I have good news and bad news (or at least another type of question)...

I spend most of the day at a "Coats For Kids" event and couldn't get back to the problem till late in the day.

I have to write fast, everytime I think I have the sequence and explaination for what is happening I lose it again.

let me start at the end point first.
The remote start panel in the back is not per any of the diagrams I have but I finally located mine (attached).
The significance is that the on/off switch is a toggle rather than momentary and there is only a start button.

The good news (I think)
I have reconnected #21 at the start solenoid,
With the toggle in the Engine on position and the ign switch on the engine will start by pushing the remote button.
With the toggle in the Engine on position the engine starts using the ignition key switch.
I first determined the toggle might not be correct when I looked at the remote panel and the red oil pressure light was on.

The bad news (I think)
I have to check again whether with the toggle in the engine off position am I back to ground zero.
And... the question is still, what caused the original problem

I have to look at this with a fresh mind.

Re: Engine won't shut off (actually, ignition won't)

Reply #19 – November 18, 2016, 06:32:29 am

Was the toggle switch in the ON position when you first saw it? That could be the source of your problem if you accidently bumped it.

Re: Engine won't shut off (actually, ignition won't)

Reply #20 – November 18, 2016, 06:44:28 am

This will be a little off track, but it fits under the header "key off, ignition on". I had seen this thread earlier in the week and did not pay much attention until I had a similar situation. I had MOT send a new alternator out to Tuscon and a truck repair shop installed it. We immediately left the shop and hit the road.
When we arrived outside Rodeo NM, the engine would shut down but the warning beeper and idiot lights, dash lights, and brake lights would not go off.
Thanks to Stuart at MOT. He called Keith and said the two small wires going into the alternator were crossed up. I disconnected the one wire and all of the gremlins turned off. In the morning I will loosen the other one and swap. If that is not the cure, then they sent the wrong alternator.
Just thought I would throw this in for someone down the road looking up this thread with the same problem.
Len

Re: Engine won't shut off (actually, ignition won't)

Reply #21 – November 19, 2016, 10:58:12 am

Here is an update on our little problem with the back feed situation. I swapped the two lines (E6 and E59) coming off the back of the alternator. The problem persisted. I contacted Aubrey at MOT, and the best he could tell me was they had sent the right alternator so he did not know what to tell me.

After asking three or four times if running the coach with the back feed would hurt anything and being told no, I have rigged an off switch for the E59 and will start back toward NAC to have it looked at. There is at least 14 hours of running between here and there, so I hope that Aubrey knows his stuff and I don't either fry the batteries or burn something else up.

Len

Re: Engine won't shut off (actually, ignition won't)

Reply #22 – November 19, 2016, 12:39:49 pm

Len,

The two small wires on the alternator should NOT be installed on the wrong terminal. Said another way, the ignition and sense wire provide very different functions and it is important to have them on the proper terminal.

Can you post a picture of the back of the alternator or post the PN?

Re: Engine won't shut off (actually, ignition won't)

Reply #23 – November 19, 2016, 02:44:36 pm

Wolfe,
According to Aubrey, the wires were attached correctly before we left Tuscon. E59 is on the stud on the port side of the alternator and E6 is attached to the stud on the starboard (passenger) side. In order to end the feedback I had disconnected the E59, and that let everything shut off. On suggestion of Keith, and before I had the wire numbers I very briefly swapped them to find out that did not make the cure. I have since reconnected correctly (according to Aubrey), and have installed an interrupt switch, so when we get off the road I can shut the feedback off.

We will be in Las Cruces with any luck tomorrow night, where I will have access to more tools, supplies etc.

Ideas will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Len

Re: Engine won't shut off (actually, ignition won't)

Reply #24 – November 19, 2016, 02:50:32 pm

Len,

If, with engine off, ignition off, the wire off it, the ignition/excite terminal of the alternator is hot (12 VDC positive), something is wrong with the alternator.

The sense wire/terminal will be hot all the time because it is directly connected to the chassis battery side of the battery isolator.

Brett

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