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2nd ATS

Is there a time delay built into the Magnatek used for the inverter? If so why and can this ATS be bypassed as the SW3012 has one built in? The ATS is not working and can be manually activated. Contacts are not showing any signs of wear. If it has a time delay it may be my problem as nothing happens after cutting shore power no matter how long you wait. It is the standard one Foretravel installed, model 100 50 amp.
1999 40 ft. U-320 wtfe build 5563 Chuck & Lynda's "Rollin' Inn"  2030 watts solar
prev. mh's 71 GMC 5 yrs. 73 Pace Setter 1 yr. 78 Vogue 5 yrs 81 FTX 40ft all electric 18 yrs. 1996 Monaco Signature 3 yrs.
2014 Grand Cherokee Overland
Dream as if you will live forever. Live as if you will die today.  James Dean

Re: 2nd ATS

Reply #1 –
Quote from: craneman –
.... can this ATS be bypassed as the SW3012 has one built in?

Because so many older coaches have been modified from the way they were build, I hesitate to give a definitive answer.

BUT,  the purpose of a second ATS can be served by EITHER a built in ATS in the inverter or a secondary ATS.  They provide exactly the same function:  When an external source of 120 VAC (shore power or generator) is sensed, they merely "pass through" that as the primary source.  When no external source available, the switch to "inverted" power source.

Said another way, with a built in ATS in the inverter, I see no reason for a second and separate ATS.
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: 2nd ATS

Reply #2 –
It just go worse!
Went out and cut the main circuit breaker while watching the contacts in the inverter ATS and it is now working. No way to trouble shoot it at this time. As soon as I cut the power the contacts switched immediately no delay. I never removed or gave percussive adjustment to anything. It had not been working since I did a check on Thursday to make sure everything was still ready to go to Quartzite. What ever caused the problem has to still be there. I will research how to bypass this ATS as I am sure the gremlin will return at the most inconvenient time. I will wait to bypass it at that time so that I might find out what was going on. I will do several tests during the next week and see if it will fail before we leave.
1999 40 ft. U-320 wtfe build 5563 Chuck & Lynda's "Rollin' Inn"  2030 watts solar
prev. mh's 71 GMC 5 yrs. 73 Pace Setter 1 yr. 78 Vogue 5 yrs 81 FTX 40ft all electric 18 yrs. 1996 Monaco Signature 3 yrs.
2014 Grand Cherokee Overland
Dream as if you will live forever. Live as if you will die today.  James Dean

Re: 2nd ATS

Reply #3 –
Quote from: craneman –
Is there a time delay built into the Magnatek used for the inverter?
 It is the standard one Foretravel installed, model 100 50 amp.

Cman,

No time delay on the Magnatek ATS 100
But they did use a few Lyght Power Systems LPT50CA also still no time delay on those also.

Pamela & Mike


Pamela & Mike 97 U 320

"It's not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters."

Re: 2nd ATS

Reply #4 –
Quote from: craneman –
It just go worse!
Went out and cut the main circuit breaker while watching the contacts in the inverter ATS and it is now working. No way to trouble shoot it at this time. As soon as I cut the power the contacts switched immediately no delay. I never removed or gave percussive adjustment to anything. It had not been working since I did a check on Thursday to make sure everything was still ready to go to Quartzite. What ever caused the problem has to still be there. I will research how to bypass this ATS as I am sure the gremlin will return at the most inconvenient time. I will wait to bypass it at that time so that I might find out what was going on. I will do several tests during the next week and see if it will fail before we leave.


What we call that is ...... Holding your mouth right!!  ^.^d

Re: 2nd ATS

Reply #5 –
consider buying a replacement ATS and taking with you...
Tim Fiedler    2025 LTV Unity MBL on Order
2000 Chevy Tracker 2 Door Convertible 4WD Now lifted 4.5"
1985 Citroen 2CV6 Charleston
Murphy Rebel on wheels with 175HP Titan
Cessna P337
1980 48' Westport MY (!/4 Share)

Re: 2nd ATS

Reply #6 –
Some time ago I asked about the two ATS units with regard to installing the Progressive EMS system. My recollection is that I was advised to install it before both of the ATS units.
 
I have a Magnum MS2812 charger/inverter which I have read also has an ATS function. I do not think I need three of these. Since it was installed by a Foretravel service center, I assume it was installed properly. Do I have to change anything to implement the built-in ATS function?
 
Which of my two existing ATS units can be removed before I install the EMS?
 
Thanks for any feedback, advise or nonpersonal observations  :D  y'all can provide,
 
Trent

Trent and Jean Eyler
2000  U295  4003  WTFE  ISC  350
Build#5603 MC#17385

Re: 2nd ATS

Reply #7 –
I'm not sure what this means, exactly, but Progressive says, (in large words) "Never plug the EMS into an inverter!".
1993 U-240 "La Villa Grande"..CAT 3116 w/ Pacbrake PRXB...Allison 3060 6-speed..
Previous: 1983 Airstream 310 turbo diesel, 1979 Airstream 280 turbo diesel
                                      Build # 4297
                                      PNW natives
                      Home base:  'Cactus Hug' (Ajo, Arizona)
                        DW Judy & Chet the wonder dog
                        Full-Timers 'Sailing the asphalt sea'

Re: 2nd ATS

Reply #8 –
Quote from: mike leary –
I'm not sure what this means, exactly, but Progressive says, (in large words) "Never plug the EMS into an inverter!".
Just guessing, probably means not to plug into the output of an inverter. Too many coaches have inverters and use pedestal EMS's both my Monaco and the Foretravel have inverters downstream of the EMS.
1999 40 ft. U-320 wtfe build 5563 Chuck & Lynda's "Rollin' Inn"  2030 watts solar
prev. mh's 71 GMC 5 yrs. 73 Pace Setter 1 yr. 78 Vogue 5 yrs 81 FTX 40ft all electric 18 yrs. 1996 Monaco Signature 3 yrs.
2014 Grand Cherokee Overland
Dream as if you will live forever. Live as if you will die today.  James Dean

Re: 2nd ATS

Reply #9 –
Trent,  don't remove any of the two ATS units.  They each serve completely different purposes.  You benefit from having two ATS units.  And you must have the Magnum "ATS" relay to function.

The builtin Magnum "ATS" relay is the trigger for your 2nd ATS.  The 2nd ATS is a premium feature that all Fortravels do not have, and is in the system because it can handle higher amperage than the Magnum relay.  The less expensive 2nd ATS protects the more expensive Magnum. 

Progressive industries EMS protects both shore and generator if hardwired on cable from 1st ATS to main panel breaker, but does not protect 1st ATS.  EMS protects shore and 1st ATS if wired between shore cable and 1st ATS.  Some have wired it one way and some have wired it in the other way, and some have installed two EMS units so both sides are protected. 

When the 2nd ATS power source is from Magnum inverter, there is no EMS protection.  When the 2nd EMS power source is shore/gen, those sources are protected by EMS as mentioned above.

Re: 2nd ATS

Reply #10 –
In our coach (different year), the wire from the main panel to the 2nd ats is sized for 50 amp.

The wire from the main panel to the inverter is sized for 20 amp.

If yours is wired the same, and you eliminate the 2nd ats, you will have to run larger wire from main panel to inverter, or you will be limited to 20 amp at the inverter subpanel when on shore or gen.
Mike & Molly Patronick
2001 U320 40'
2011 Forester

Re: 2nd ATS

Reply #11 –
Would appreciate some enlightenment on why one would wire enough loads on a circuit that it would need  50 amp from shore power/generator, but would run (OR TRY TO RUN) on 30 amps from the inverter. 

Automatically allowing loaded in excess of inverter capacity to be powered (or try to be powered) doesn't make sense.

Explanation, please.

ON EDIT:  After several PM discussions, I do see a minor advantage to the second ATS.  It allows the "separation" of power to the charging section of the inverter/charger from the "load handling" section.  This would only be important were you to turn on enough loads supplied by the sub-panel that this load AND that of the battery charging section of the inverter/charger with a deeply discharged battery bank would exceed the rating of the main panel breaker, wiring from it to the inverter charger or the inverter/charger itself.  Guess one would have to weight their ability to manage heavy loads vs the ability to turn on everything at once when battery bank deeply discharged.
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: 2nd ATS

Reply #12 –
Is the sub panel even in use when on shore or generator? When I was working on the second ATS I noticed it only switched between sending and receiving power on 12/2 wire. That was why I was going to eliminate that ATS. I figured out a temporary fix if it goes bad again by just mechanically closing the switch that closes when there is no shore or generator power.
1999 40 ft. U-320 wtfe build 5563 Chuck & Lynda's "Rollin' Inn"  2030 watts solar
prev. mh's 71 GMC 5 yrs. 73 Pace Setter 1 yr. 78 Vogue 5 yrs 81 FTX 40ft all electric 18 yrs. 1996 Monaco Signature 3 yrs.
2014 Grand Cherokee Overland
Dream as if you will live forever. Live as if you will die today.  James Dean

Re: 2nd ATS

Reply #13 –
Attached is the schematic for the main power distribution.
Relay #1 decides whether to pass incoming current from either shore power or the generator along to the main breaker box for distribution.

Circuit #7 (a 10 gauge wire implying a 30 amp circuit) feeds the converter side of the inverter to charge the house bank.

When it wants to, this is possibly where the inverter's internal transfer switch comes into play, the inverter provides ~30 amps (again via a 10 gauge wire) to Switching Relay (ATS) #2.

Note, ATS #2 is fed by 50 amps (6 gauge wire) from the main breaker  or 30 amps from the inverter, and because of the potential for 50 amps connects to Breaker box #2 with #6 wire. This suggests you could demand more from the inverter than it is willing to provide.

Elliott & Mary Bray
ex. 1996 36' U295 - Build 4879
ex. 2018 Coachmen Leprechaun 319MB
 

Re: 2nd ATS

Reply #14 –
My schematic is different but does have 10/2 wire not the 12/2 wire I thought it had going to and from the inverter. I need to figure out why I need the 6/2 wire feeding the sub panel if when on inverter 10/2 runs everything.
1999 40 ft. U-320 wtfe build 5563 Chuck & Lynda's "Rollin' Inn"  2030 watts solar
prev. mh's 71 GMC 5 yrs. 73 Pace Setter 1 yr. 78 Vogue 5 yrs 81 FTX 40ft all electric 18 yrs. 1996 Monaco Signature 3 yrs.
2014 Grand Cherokee Overland
Dream as if you will live forever. Live as if you will die today.  James Dean

Re: 2nd ATS

Reply #15 –
Quote from: craneman –
if when on inverter 10/2 runs everything.

Cman,

On ours the inverter will trip if you try to run everything at one time thus no need for larger wire.  Now if we put in a larger inverter then we would need to enlarge the wire.

Pamela & Mike
Pamela & Mike 97 U 320

"It's not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters."

Re: 2nd ATS

Reply #16 –
Quote from: craneman –
I need to figure out why I need the 6/2 wire feeding the sub panel if when on inverter 10/2 runs everything.

With the original inverter you only have 30 amps to play with.
There are three 20 amp circuits in that panel through a 50 amp breaker.
 A 50 amp potential draw from the subpanel will require a bigger wire.
Elliott & Mary Bray
ex. 1996 36' U295 - Build 4879
ex. 2018 Coachmen Leprechaun 319MB
 

Re: 2nd ATS

Reply #17 –
So when not on the inverter I can run the toaster, micro-wave, coffee maker, refrigerator, television and let my wife use a hair dryer at the same time. It won't happen, but as you say the potential is there. With the inverter I would have to drop out the hair dryer for correct wiring but would be sucking the life out of the batteries.
1999 40 ft. U-320 wtfe build 5563 Chuck & Lynda's "Rollin' Inn"  2030 watts solar
prev. mh's 71 GMC 5 yrs. 73 Pace Setter 1 yr. 78 Vogue 5 yrs 81 FTX 40ft all electric 18 yrs. 1996 Monaco Signature 3 yrs.
2014 Grand Cherokee Overland
Dream as if you will live forever. Live as if you will die today.  James Dean

Re: 2nd ATS

Reply #18 –
Quote from: craneman –
1. With the inverter I would have to drop out the hair dryer for correct wiring
2.  but would be sucking the life out of the batteries.

1. At least
2. Yes

Pamela & Mike
Pamela & Mike 97 U 320

"It's not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters."