Advice on high-end coaches

Topic: Advice on high-end coaches (Read 3208 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Advice on high-end coaches

Reply #25 – December 27, 2016, 07:26:28 pm

Quote from: Old Knucklehead – December 27, 2016, 07:17:25 pm

The driverside mirror in this photo gave me something to do immediately. Manufacturers abound with parts and the quality of most are really remarkable. I replaced the missing mirrors at little cost from the OEM and got ready to survey my next project. One step a time, right?

One of my mirrors fell off the fixture when I was at Bernd's last summer. Fortunately it wasn't damaged. Based on the appearance of the adhesive, which appeared identical to the original basement floor, I believe it had been held on with Gorilla Glue. Melvin reattached mine with windshield adhesive - same as what they used to bond the filon to my new bottom (epoxy painted) frame. I have been remiss in posting all the renovations. I will get to it.

Re: Advice on high-end coaches

Reply #26 – December 27, 2016, 11:09:56 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – December 26, 2016, 08:55:56 pm

2001 through 2005 Toyota RAV4 all wheel manual trans for 4 down. Toyota reliability with 200K trouble free miles on ours. Short wheelbase and good ground clearance means it goes off road well. Weighs just under 3000 lbs. No timing belt. 2.4 liters pulls heavy trailers like a mule. 2006 up don't have manual trans in the U.S. Always a pleasure to drive.

Pierce

Quote from: oldguy – December 26, 2016, 08:37:13 pm

I tow a 98 Suzuki Sidekick with an automatic trans, they are well built and easy to work on and they are light. The Trackers and Suzuki Vitaras were made up until 2004 in the true 4x4. I prefer the Suzuki 98 and older as they ride a little stiffer then the newer ones. My wife's tracker is a 2003 and drives me like a car. If I wanted anything newer I would go for the Honda Element. For off roading either automatics or standards work well, I've used both

Tow vehicle we have is the Tracker and we have taken it (and previous one) into some pretty tight areas and actually drove down a very rocky river bed that started at 4000 ft and finished at 1000 ft in Mexico. I love this car as they are reliable, not expensive and tow 4 down while being auto tranny 4 WD.
Lots of options.
JohnH

Ken,
I have a '95 Suzuki Sidekick 4x4 2-door convertible with the removable hardtops. Under 3000 lbs. most states I believe do not require aux. toad brakes. I use a simple blue ox tow bar that folds up to the front bumper and safety cables instead of chains. Mine is a five speed 1.6L 16 valve, 27mpg and like JohnH's fun to drive and will go almost anywhere! I used to tow it with a 30' Minnie Winnie before the U300 and could barely feel it.

I went from 215 to 235 A/T tires on stock rims and the difference in road manners and handling was like night and day. A modest lift of about 2.5 inches will make it even better. I removed the back seat for room for the dogs and coated the bumpers, tops, and floor with Herculiner for waterproofing. We just recently traded a 99' Tahoe for an 08'Jeep Liberty 4x4 Limited with all the bells and whistles for Cindy's daily driver and future toad. The Zuki fits our needs right now.

I wouldn't dismiss an older Grand Villa U300 with a Detroit DD6V92 2-cycle mated with a heavy duty Allison transmission. It's a hard combination to beat. Just ask Pierce!

Jerry

Re: Advice on high-end coaches

Reply #27 – December 27, 2016, 11:17:36 pm

Some great postings on here. I was a Foretravel Tech for 3 years. I also worked on all the other brands. I still do RV repair in the summer at my home/shop. My dream was to own one some day, and now we do.
We bought a well maintained 97 U295 36'.with 104K miles. It has the Cat engine. I realize the extra 4' is nice with a 40', but after driving coaches in and out of the shop, plus delivering a few to San Diego, I knew I wanted a 36'.We also tow a 22' race car trailer in the summer.
As a tech, I went through the factory a few times for training. There is no doubt about the quality and serviceability of a Foretravel. IMO, the wiring is the best I have seen.
I too agree that slides can be a hassle. replaced a few seals in my time. Personally, we don't care to have a slide. But I understand how popular they are. Especially if you live in one. Foretravel did an awesome job, with the air seal, and flush side.
We tow a 02' Jeep Wrangler 4X4 auto, and we do some pretty serious stuff in Arizona.But not total hardcore. Our Jeep is lifted, and has 33" x 12" tires. It does require several rotations, but Les Swab does them for free.Can't tell it's there. We love driving in city traffic with it. Easy to see out, short wheel base to get around and park.
I just changed from a Roadmaster Even Brake, to a Invisa brake. No more in and out of the brake. No more storage while out.
I thought about a newer coach with slides and all the fancy gadgets. Decided for 1/3 the money (or more) I could have a quality coach, that will last a long time.
I don't know about the newer ones, but you will not find any waffer or cardboard in a FT.
Chris

Re: Advice on high-end coaches

Reply #28 – December 27, 2016, 11:36:55 pm

Suzuki Samurai.
Great around town and on the trails, but you will need a kidney belt for a long highway trip.
Only weights about 2450 lbs. A trackers little brother.

Re: Advice on high-end coaches

Reply #29 – December 28, 2016, 09:33:35 am

Quote from: coastprt – December 27, 2016, 11:09:56 pm

Tow vehicle we have is the Tracker and we have taken it (and previous one) into some pretty tight areas and actually drove down a very rocky river bed that started at 4000 ft and finished at 1000 ft in Mexico. I love this car as they are reliable, not expensive and tow 4 down while being auto tranny 4 WD.
Lots of options.
JohnH

Ken,
I have a '95 Suzuki Sidekick 4x4 2-door convertible with the removable hardtops. Under 3000 lbs. most states I believe do not require aux. toad brakes. I use a simple blue ox tow bar that folds up to the front bumper and safety cables instead of chains. Mine is a five speed 1.6L 16 valve, 27mpg and like JohnH's fun to drive and will go almost anywhere! I used to tow it with a 30' Minnie Winnie before the U300 and could barely feel it.

I went from 215 to 235 A/T tires on stock rims and the difference in road manners and handling was like night and day. A modest lift of about 2.5 inches will make it even better. I removed the back seat for room for the dogs and coated the bumpers, tops, and floor with Herculiner for waterproofing. We just recently traded a 99' Tahoe for an 08'Jeep Liberty 4x4 Limited with all the bells and whistles for Cindy's daily driver and future toad. The Zuki fits our needs right now.

I wouldn't dismiss an older Grand Villa U300 with a Detroit DD6V92 2-cycle mated with a heavy duty Allison transmission. It's a hard combination to beat. Just ask Pierce!

Jerry

How hard are parts to get for these? I found one I really like.. but worried about parts and engine reliability..

Re: Advice on high-end coaches

Reply #30 – December 28, 2016, 11:32:23 am

Quote from: DavidS – December 28, 2016, 09:33:35 am

How hard are parts to get for these? I found one I really like.. but worried about parts and engine reliability..

If your speaking about the Detroit 6V-92TA, they are still in production. Mercedes MTU (Daimler-Benz) purchased Detroit Diesel in 1994 and combined operations as MTU America in 2000. MTU also owns Rolls Royce turbine engines used in many of our airliners today.
Because of smog requirements, new Detroit 2 cycles are no longer made for the highway use here in the U.S. MTU America supports all parts including long blocks here in the U.S. The U.S. military still uses them in a lot of "to important to fail" applications here and around the world. Since they made over 3 million of them with 700,000 still in service, parts are very plentiful and less expensive than most other diesel engines. One of the few engines that can be owner "in frame" overhauled.

EMD (Electro Motive Diesel) builds giant versions of the Detroit 2 cycle and is found in a high percentage of our railroad locomotives today.

MTU's 2 cycle page: Detroit Diesel 2-Cycle: MTU Online
MTU's 2 cycle history page: MTU Report > History > Detroit Diesel 2-Cycle engines

Glad to go into detail why I consider them to be the best and most reliable engine for a motor coach with all the pros and cons.

Pierce

Re: Advice on high-end coaches

Reply #31 – December 28, 2016, 01:19:18 pm

Just wondering, does the 6v92TA ( A V6 correct?) have less or more vibration at idle than say a 8.3 cummins like ours. Can't seem to get the idle just right and cruise doesn't control our idle.
Not meaning to hijack the thread, but it could be important to a new owner, maybe should start a new one

Re: Advice on high-end coaches

Reply #32 – December 28, 2016, 01:20:37 pm

Quote from: Bob & Sue – December 28, 2016, 01:19:18 pm

Just wondering, does the 6v92TA ( A V6 correct?) have less or more vibration at idle than say a 8.3 cummins like ours. Can't seem to get the idle just right and cruise doesn't control our idle.
Not meaning to hijack the thread, but it could be important to a new owner, maybe should start a new one

Mine is as smooth as a Swiss watch

Re: Advice on high-end coaches

Reply #33 – December 28, 2016, 01:34:41 pm

Quote from: stump – December 28, 2016, 01:20:37 pm

Mine is as smooth as a Swiss watch

Mine too. I have a great stereo but prefer to listen to my engine purr.

Re: Advice on high-end coaches

Reply #34 – December 28, 2016, 01:35:55 pm

So is it the V thing or the 2 cycle thing that smoothes them out. Our ford truck with the 7.3 V8 navistar isn't all that smooth at idle either.

Re: Advice on high-end coaches

Reply #35 – December 28, 2016, 01:41:43 pm

Quote from: Schake – December 26, 2016, 11:20:24 am

Are there "good" years or "bad" years we should be aware of?

Pierce and I were talking about this the other day. It concerns a coach I'm looking at for the owner in a few days, a mid nineties Grand Villa 40 footer. We agreed the '93 through '95/'96 were the best-looking ever made. That being said, they are OLD, and a lotsa CBs (Coach Bucks: 1 CB= $1,000) could be spent bringing it up to snuff. So? Depends on the pocket book. I paid max CBs for this one, but had paperwork to prove it had been taken care of, and other than "picky picky" issues, it was worth it. Knowing what I know (with mass help from this Forum) I would restore a "Classic" GV Unihome and cruise on. By the way, all of us with GVs always notice each other and give the "four honks", and like the classic Airstreams, usually find a way to turn around and get together!

Re: Advice on high-end coaches

Reply #36 – December 28, 2016, 01:47:18 pm

Since it's a 2-cycle, each cylinder fires every time the piston nears top dead center. Normally, this would make it twice as smooth as a six cylinder four cycle. But since the blower keeps pumping air into the intake ports, there is never a time the piston has negative pressure on it. No intake stroke or reverse thrust so even less vibration. No intake valves so no harmonics here either. Just no worries about shaking or having to adjust the idle speed to get rid of it.

All four valves in the head are exhaust valves and since the blower pushes large amounts of air through the engine, the EGT or exhaust gas temperature is about 150 degrees less than a four cycle Cummins or CAT. The lower EGT means much less chance of a broken or "dropped" valve plus the four valves have a lot of stem area to radiate heat to the cylinder head and spread the heat over the cylinder head more evenly. You can always tell if it's a Detroit 2 cycle by the size of the exhaust pipe. 5" diameter coming out the back.

Yes, glass smooth from a 600 rpm idle to 2100 rpm fuel cutoff. The 6V-92TA is 9 liters so a little large than the 8.3 Cummins. Also has over 1000 ft lbs of torque and gets it at a lower rpm. Firing each stroke make it sound like high rpm but it's not. No sweet spot for cruising as all RPMs are glass smooth.

This engine at 350 hp is pretty conservative as later fire engines may produce 440 hp with FD ladder trucks putting out over 500 hp. Boats usually see 525 to 535 hp with 614 hp seen by some brave owners with big pocketbooks.

This engine is also made with more cylinders as in the 8V-92TA for high end motorhome as well as even more cylinders for other applications like generators, pumps, earth movers, boats. The Coast Guard uses them in their aluminum rescue boats to go over the bar. From cold to full throttle in on several seconds for instant emergency response.

Tales of leaking oil are totally gone with the 92 series. Older engines in GM buses were "sidewinder" or transverse mounted with the engine turned part way on it's side. That with tin valve covers and Permatex for a sealant meant a lot of oil on the ground. Ours leaks less oil than our 300SD. As far as using oil, we returned from a coast to coast and back trip last month with only 3 quarts needed to bring it to the full mark. In almost 100,000 miles, it has average 7.9 mpg for it's entire life. This is from the DDEC II computer data, not an optimistic owner.

Pierce

Re: Advice on high-end coaches

Reply #37 – December 28, 2016, 02:03:22 pm

So why did Fortravel stop using them. And what were the last years that they did.

Don't get me wrong, we love our GV and purposely looked for the 95 vintage, air bags, 6speed, 102, 10K generator, center bath and all that but not ruling out a GV upgrade some day.

Re: Advice on high-end coaches

Reply #38 – December 28, 2016, 03:01:28 pm

Quote from: Bob & Sue – December 28, 2016, 02:03:22 pm

So why did Fortravel stop using them. And what were the last years that they did.

Don't get me wrong, we love our GV and purposely looked for the 95 vintage, air bags, 6speed, 102, 10K generator, center bath and all that but not ruling out a GV upgrade some day.

It may be just a rumor, but when Penske bought Detroit Diesel he told them to make a 4 stroke or he would sell the company for parts and real estate. So the 60 series was born. When they quit making them Foretravel would have had no source.

Re: Advice on high-end coaches

Reply #39 – December 28, 2016, 04:01:55 pm

The main reason GM stopped making the 2 strokes is the ever tightening of EPA regs on emissions.
2 strokes are inherently harder to modify than 4 strokes to meet new regs.
The military can still get them because they do not have to comply.

Re: Advice on high-end coaches

Reply #40 – December 28, 2016, 07:07:04 pm

Gosh I love this forum. You ask a question and you get the answer In spades !

What RV forum has a quick knowledgeable response that's better.

Re: Advice on high-end coaches

Reply #41 – December 28, 2016, 08:28:16 pm

Quote from: craneman – December 28, 2016, 03:01:28 pm

It may be just a rumor, but when Penske bought Detroit Diesel he told them to make a 4 stroke or he would sell the company for parts and real estate. So the 60 series was born. When they quit making them Foretravel would have had no source.

While the 6V-92TA was the first heavy duty diesel to have a computer (DDEC or Detroit Diesel Electronic Controls) the 60 series was the first HD diesel to be all electronic from the first to the last. When MTU bought Detroit, they discontinued the 60 series but kept many innovations in their four cycles, the DD13, DD15 and DD16 series. They have a B50 of 1.5 million miles!

The 2 cycles are a very complex engine with more parts in one cylinder head than in a whole Cummins engine. There are no injector lines because the cylinder head has internal passages for the fuel to get to the unit injectors from the lift pump. It would be impossible to get the 30,000 psi for the common rail injection system without a complete redesign. Other items like the internal aftercooler instead of a intercooler (CAC) and the big blower (aka GMC supercharger) really added to the cost. Just the labor involved to set up the individual pump/injectors or"run the rack" as it was known was significant. The change to electronic injectors cut this down as well as making fuel system diagnostics very easy.

The latest EMD 2 cycles and Wartsila-Sulzer engines were able to finally take advantage of the 2 cycle's firing on every stroke by doing away with the blower and using electric clutching motors to spin the turbochargers to get the engine started. This has allowed them to go over the magical 50% efficiency barrier. See at: Most powerful diesel engine in the world

It might seem that I don't like 4 cycles but nothing could be further from the truth. My business during the diesel period was all four cycle engines and I love them.

For Cummins owners with a rough idle, the problem is not with the engine design but with the fuel system. The rotary injector pumps are not on my favorite list (VW diesel, 6.9/7.3 Ford/Navistar, Cummins with rotary pump, Perkins) but the Bosch P series are absolutely great. The problem arrises during the very short calibration period allowed at the factory. These pumps last forever but benefit from a trip along with the injectors to a truck fuel injection speciality shop. The pumps need to supply the exact amount of fuel at the exact time over the entire RPM range to EACH cylinder for the engine to run smoothly. This plus a valve adjustment can make it idle nicely as well as increased power to a mechanical diesel engine. Just depends on how much fuel the shop adds.

We put turbos on normally aspirated Mercedes 240/300 grey market diesels back in the 1970's. The turbo model was introduced here in the states before Europe so the grey market cars needed more power to sell. Our first attempt saw only slightly increased power with slightly lower quarter mile times, and much lower EGTs but when we had a pump shop add fuel, the cars turned into relative rockets.

Transmissions: The first Foretravel U300s only developed 300hp as the 746 Allison was not available and the existing Allison was not rated to handle the increased power and torque the remapping of the 6V-92TA ECU gave. While the 746 is a super rugged transmission, it is only four speeds. The upper second, third and fourth gear lockup make it shift like a 5 speed, give it better mileage, lower temperature and longer life. What hurts are the ratios compared to the 6 speeds behind a Cummins 8.3. Since first in a 6 speed has a 6.xx to 1 ratio, it can climb the steepest driveway and will rocket away from a Detroit U300 with the 4.xx to 1 first gear ratio at a stop sign. The 6 speed transmission also gives a taller highway ratio and a fuel mileage advantage from the lower final drive ratio most (but not all) have. It has much better ratios for climbing the long interstate grades here in the west. Later Detroits mated to the Allison 746 transmission have Jake brakes while the early models have a transmission retarder. I prefer the Jake but both work well. The transmission cooler on the 6V-92TA to 746 is very heavy duty.

Cummins advantages: The waste gate fitted to the Cummins turbo keeps sea level horsepower up to much higher elevation (known as the "critical altitude") where power finally starts to drop off. The 6V-92TA has no waste gate so the horsepower starts dropping as soon as the altitude increases. The 8.3 Cummins also benefits from a better placed block heater (in most cases) and a heated screen to aid cold weather starting. Some Detroits do have the heater in the traditional location down low on the block.

Time for dinner

Pierce

Re: Advice on high-end coaches

Reply #42 – December 29, 2016, 08:39:03 am

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – December 28, 2016, 08:28:16 pm

Time for dinner.

Pierce,

In your spare time, you should write a book. I'd buy it!

Re: Advice on high-end coaches

Reply #43 – January 01, 2017, 09:14:43 pm

Thanks, all, for your input... Much appreciated.

For further context, Beaver Marquis (which I have ridden in once, and loved) and County Coach Magna (never even seen a CC in person, let alone been in one) are the two models I've been focused on in addition to FT. (I have yet to see a FT in person, either.)

Hoping first coach will be our final one.
Since I want us to go full-time, having the extra space slides offer has great appeal. For stability, a tag axle is something we want.

If any of you is passing through MD, I would welcome - and greatly appreciate - an invite to see your FT and to make your acquaintance.
Ken

Re: Advice on high-end coaches

Reply #44 – January 01, 2017, 11:47:17 pm

A 40' single slide 320 nearly identical to ours ....Love It! and the 2 full pass thru bays are a plus!

find it here... but ALWAYS have any coach inspected BEFORE you buy..

2002 Foretravel U320 40' Priced at $ 119500

Re: Advice on high-end coaches

Reply #45 – January 02, 2017, 12:02:25 am

Flip flop floorplan because of the slide. Kitchen on the curb side. Bath reversed. Mirrored warddrob doors appear to be across from the toilet..

Pretty coach

Re: Advice on high-end coaches

Reply #46 – January 02, 2017, 01:06:37 am

Quote from: Caflashbob – January 02, 2017, 12:02:25 am

Flip flop floorplan because of the slide. Kitchen on the curb side. Bath reversed. Mirrored warddrob doors appear to be across from the toilet..

Pretty coach

Yup,flopped floor plan and mirrors, We rarely extend the slide unless staying put for a week or so.
Only things I can see need updating is the sewer needs to be adapted to Rhino style, and the satellite/tv's .... really like the flooring, hope to do ours soon

Re: Advice on high-end coaches

Reply #47 – January 02, 2017, 01:13:38 am

My closet mirrors are offset from the toilet.

Re: Advice on high-end coaches

Reply #48 – January 02, 2017, 08:08:33 am

If you're sitting on the toilet in our coach. The way the mirrors are on the hallway doors I can see right out the entrance door. On the other hand If somebody walked up to the open door they could see me in the mirror sitting on the can! This is what would happen

Re: Advice on high-end coaches

Reply #49 – January 02, 2017, 06:05:26 pm

@ Stump..... You do know that they put those pocket door thingies on for a reason..... LOLOLOL!!

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