More coach bucks

Topic: More coach bucks (Read 9645 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: More coach bucks

Reply #100 – January 21, 2017, 11:17:24 pm

That is a huge amount of oil consumption. I changed the oil on my caterpillar immediately after purchase and am close to 18,000 miles on the new oil and have not yet added a drop of makeup oil. The level is currently close to the add mark on the dipstick, but I will let it continue to drop and just change it in 2000 more miles.

I doubt the liner orings were the cause of your leak, but I agree at this age they are probably on borrowed time, combined with your oil consumption issue some new parts should really help.

Re: More coach bucks

Reply #101 – January 22, 2017, 12:30:43 am

Sorry I just reread my last post and it should be no more pressure than 15 lbs

Re: More coach bucks

Reply #102 – January 22, 2017, 06:48:18 am

Would do what Toby said Monday morn,then figure the cost of getting the coach elsewhere.Keep
In mind most shops do not want a pile of parts to reassemble.Regarding these nuts and bolts
I would be spraying them down at lunch and every night with penetrating oil and telling my son to
Use a ratchet and not a impact.GOOD LUCK.

Re: More coach bucks

Reply #103 – January 22, 2017, 09:23:29 am

heads off, bolts twisted off, $17k overhaul.....hook set.
Lots of great advice on the last 5 pages and over two weeks but all of it ignored.
Best of luck

Re: More coach bucks

Reply #104 – January 22, 2017, 11:37:31 am

I bought and sold Mercedes for years in Germany. All anyone had to do was supply the chassis number and describe the part and MBZ would get it on a plane to anywhere in the world within 24 hours. After Daimler AG (Mercedes) bought Detroit Diesel, they brought the same level of service to the Detroit Diesel name. They have 800 locations to service Detroit Diesel MTU products in the U.S. Here is the site where you only have to enter your zip code and all the nearby service centers will be listed. Find A Dealer | Demand Detroit

Shops like to use aftermarket parts as they are much less expensive. I shipped MBZ diesel cylinder heads to the U.S. and had the choice of OEM at over $800 or Balo (aftermarket) for $125. I used the Balo and never had a problem. With aftermarket parts, there are good choices as well as bad ones. You need to find out what aftermarket company your shop is using and the most important thing, if they will warrant the labor as well as the parts they use. Too many times, a shop can say that it was a faulty part and you have to eat at least part of the cost.

Replacing the parts you have listed is not a complete overhaul in any way. How about rebuilding the rods, replacing the injector cups, valves, cam followers, injectors (expensive) camshaft bushings, camshaft within specifications, etc?

So, it looks to me that the parts you have listed are less than $2000 out of a total of $17,000. Lots of profit for the shop here! When you go to sell your coach, most savvy buyers will see you have a 160,000 mile engine with a new set of pistons/liners/bearings. That's not going to add much to the value. It's still an older engine with the original turbo, injectors, water pump, ECU, etc, etc.

As far as age taking it's toll, our 300SD is a 1984, has 440,000 miles, starts like new in any temp and uses no oil. 160,000 on a Detroit 2-cycle is not much. Poor maintenance or abuse can make a big difference. At the 100,000 mark our 6V-92TA just did a coast to coast and back using 3 quarts of oil to bring it back up to the full mark. These engines have the reputation of bringing the truck home no matter how old and tired they are. But nothing like overheating to age the O-rings in a hurry! This applies to the 92 and 60 series as well as any diesel with wet liners.

Aftermarket parts forum: Inframe kits what's the best bang for your $$$$ | TruckersReport.com...

For DIY owners, you can easily replace the cylinder kits yourself with simple hand tools and save a ton. NO puller is required to pull the liners! A lot of the head work will have to be done by a machine shop but you can do a quality job for not that much money. Research including videos make it pretty easy. But doing it inframe in a RV is the tough part. Really hard to lean over the engine and do work from the top!

Still can't get my head around coolant on the ground but none in the crankcase and have it be the fault of the liner seals. I would have to see it to believe it.

Pierce

Re: More coach bucks

Reply #105 – January 22, 2017, 01:07:12 pm

From the way they were talking, it sounds like the only part that won't be touched is the block. Everything else inside gets changed out. Yes, the warranty question is one that they are checking on. They want us to have a 100,000 mile/3 year warranty on parts and labor - what we would get with genuine Detroit parts. Tomorrow I'm going to ask them about whether the warranty is transferable to the next owner.

Re: More coach bucks

Reply #106 – January 22, 2017, 01:25:50 pm

RVtrv,not sure which cat you have,but are you saying you change at 20k miles?That would be
Pushing it with synthetic and a bypass filter.Cummins calls for 6k.

Re: More coach bucks

Reply #107 – January 22, 2017, 02:49:12 pm

Look folks, David is grown and is spending his money and is free to have whomever he wants
to work on his coach. He has been advised to run away from these people, but he wants to
stay there rather than having his coach towed to, what we believe is, a more knowledgeable shop.
If he is happy there, then so be it and we should all go away and let him get his coach repaired.
It is sad that his coach has been torn down and now is headed down to a 17,000 plus dollar
engine repair. At some point and time you go over the value of your coach and throw money in
it that can never be recovered. He will either have to drive the cost of the repair out of the coach
or sell it for a large loss, but it his money and we should not be adding frustration to his already
large problem.

Carter-

Re: More coach bucks

Reply #108 – January 22, 2017, 03:07:29 pm

Not so long ago we had a similar situation. My issue was the transmission the coach was not driveable. Needed either a new or rebuilt transmission or rebuild my transmission. My transmission cooler failed coolant found it's way into the Allison. Another option was to flush the transmission plumb in a new cooler at a much lower cost. Another Forum member chose this option. We spent twelve coach bucks repairing our coach and know that we will never recoup that expense. But we chose the option that we were comfortable with. I believe that is just what Dave is doing what is best for him for his peace of mind.

Roland

Re: More coach bucks

Reply #109 – January 22, 2017, 03:25:41 pm

Rule #1 never ever add up the costs of something you enjoy.

Re: More coach bucks

Reply #110 – January 22, 2017, 08:10:29 pm

[quote author=Pierce & Gaylie Stewart date=1485103051 link=msg=25893

Still can't get my head around coolant on the ground but none in the crankcase and have it be the fault of the liner seals. I would have to see it to believe it.

Pierce
[/quote]

David,

I hate to beat a dead horse here and we all feel your pain and wish you could avoid such a costly repair or get taken in by somebody.

I just spoke to a friend of mine who has been a diesel mechanic over 30 years and has worked on just about everything. I told him about your situation and he told me without coolant in the crankcase or oil in the coolant, radiator, etc. that the liner rings are probably okay. He had a bad oil cooler do the same thing one time and leaked coolant to the ground. It could be one of the hoses are cracked and leaking. In his situation he just bypassed the oil cooler until he was able to replace it later. Also I would check the hoses to the air compressor for leaks. Just recently I serviced my air compressor head and had to disconnect the coolant lines to do it. The compressor sits high up on the engine and it leaked out about 2 gallons of coolant before it stopped. This caused a low coolant code 43 on the DDEC I discovered after reassembly and starting. I'm by no means an expert on anything or a diesel mechanic but I would want to look at some other things before a $17000 in-frame overhaul in the absence of oil in the crankcase and coolant was pouring out on the ground without it running. You said it was leaking coolant and not overheating a couple of weeks ago. I know it's been partially torn down but have these mechanics shown you where the coolant is leaking or just told you.

Does the warranty include parts and labor?

Like the rest us, just trying to help,

Jerry

Re: More coach bucks

Reply #111 – January 23, 2017, 12:44:40 pm

I had a nice chat with the mechanic today and learned a bit more. Yes, there was about a half gallon of antifreeze in the engine oil. There is obvious damage to both the cylinder liner and the piston, and the o-rings are cracked and one of them was nearly broken.

I also talked to the service manager and found out that the warranty IS transferable to the next owner.

I asked about the cost of a reman vs the in-frame overhaul. They will run the numbers, but it is likely that the in-frame would be considerably cheaper. This is one case where drop-down jacks would be a help (and the only one that I can think of).

Re: More coach bucks

Reply #112 – January 23, 2017, 12:51:24 pm

Dave, they can air up the chassis and raise the air bags, if you have safety blocks and insert them. that way the under side will be elevated, and they can still jack up the wheels if needed. The air supply can be through one of the tanks or the air hose outlet next to the entrance steps. If you do not have safety blocks do not let them air up the coach as it will/could come down ...

Re: More coach bucks

Reply #113 – January 23, 2017, 12:58:04 pm

Hey Dave, in your original post, you said this; " Everything looked good, but there was a dark something on the ground. Looked underneath, and there was a drip, drip, drip from what looked like the lowest point of the engine. That explained the dark something on the ground. Was it oil or coolant? Dipstick showed the same level as the afternoon before. Radiator overflow tank had coolant in it, but when I opened the black reservoir (the one on the right with the sensor) and put some water in it sounded empty. Okay, stuff on the ground is coolant." Where was that drip, drip, drip. coming from??? You also stated that the oil level was O.K. I don't understand your mechanic's findings...

Re: More coach bucks

Reply #114 – January 23, 2017, 01:47:03 pm

Is this problem we see coming up from time to time, a DD manufacturing problem, or just "the luck of the draw?" $:-\$

Re: More coach bucks

Reply #115 – January 23, 2017, 02:37:13 pm

Mike,

The 71 series Detroit 2-cycles had dry sleeves so coolant in the oil was never a problem. The 92 series 2-cycle, 60 series four cycle and all the Detroit DD13/15/16 four cycles have wet sleeves. The 2-cycle sleeves can be removed by putting a home made tool on top of the piston and then turning the crankshaft by hand. The four cycles need a tool and puller you can find inexpensively on ebay.

The only time I have ever heard of the O-rings failing is when the engine is severely overheated for a length of time. The DDEC computer all Detroit powered Foretravels have, shuts the engine down in this case but there is an override switch on the dash that allows the engine to produce full power for a limited time unless the override switch is used again...and again. This has served as a engine death switch to more than one coach with a 2-cycle or 4-cycle wet liner engine.

Servicing a Foretravel Detroit 92 series is not any more difficult than the other engines as mechanic no longer have to "run the rack" as there is no longer a RACK. The electronic controls operate the fuel injectors, in fact the same injectors as the 60 series four cycles.

Here is a 34 second video on removing a wet liner from a DD13 diesel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTQ19iUjmmg

So how do you get coolant on the ground? Only through a external hose/fitting leak or a rod through the block would be my guess. Have never seen one leak on the ground.

FYI: Cummins M11 and ISX also have wet liners.

Pierce

Re: More coach bucks

Reply #116 – January 23, 2017, 03:10:39 pm

Gerry, the dripping was coming from the catch can. At that time I didn't know what that was or how it is arranged. Since then I've learned what it is and how it is designed inside. The slobber tubes go from the engine to the left and right ends of the can. There is a vertical tube that runs from near the top of the can to out the bottom. It serves as a vent for the oily gas that is produced. The can allows the solid stuff to be retained in the can and the gas to vent out the bottom via that tube. The slobber tubes are similar to the old breather pipes that were on the old (pre-smog) cars.

There was only about 1/2 gallon of coolant in the whole amount of engine oil, and it wasn't mixed in with the oil. I talked to the mechanic about how this might have happened. No one will ever be able to know for sure, but we're thinking that the o-ring let go sometime on the morning of 4 January, since there was nothing that looked unusual on the afternoon of 3 January when I checked the engine. The block heater was on, and as you know, it is located fairly near one cylinder. I think that the cylinder I looked at is the one that is closest to the block heater, but I don't know that for a fact.

The engine HAS apparently been overheated at some point, but I doubt that at this point anyone could say for sure when it happened. I'm pretty sure that it didn't happen while I owned the coach, unless it was a couple of years ago when we lost the hydraulic fluid for the radiator fans and the engine temperature rose quickly. I pulled over and shut down before the computer shut it down, so I would hope that nothing happened then. What happened in the 20 years prior to our ownership I don't know.

As I said earlier, I suspect that the o-rings are aging, and that may contribute to the problem. One thing that was pointed out to me is that these engines were originally built for over-the-road truckers, who put hundreds of thousands of miles on their trucks every year. At 165,000 miles, I suspect that my engine has about one year's worth of what an OTR trucker would put on, and my engine is 23 years old. Assuming that the engine is intended for 1,000,000 miles before overhaul, that would mean that an OTR trucker would overhaul every 7-10 years. My engine would have to run for well over 100 years to get to that point. I suspect that rubber-like things like o-rings will deteriorate due to age as well as miles.

Re: More coach bucks

Reply #117 – January 23, 2017, 03:36:57 pm

Quote from: kb0zke – January 23, 2017, 03:10:39 pm

The engine HAS apparently been overheated at some point, but I doubt that at this point anyone could say for sure when it happened. I'm pretty sure that it didn't happen while I owned the coach, unless it was a couple of years ago when we lost the hydraulic fluid for the radiator fans and the engine temperature rose quickly. I pulled over and shut down before the computer shut it down, so I would hope that nothing happened then. What happened in the 20 years prior to our ownership I don't know.

David,

DDEC II code for overheating is code 44. It will show up in the active codes if still there and in the historical codes if it hasn't been cleared. I would read all the codes from the under dash flasher or have the mechanic read them with his diagnostic code reader if he has one.

Jerry

Re: More coach bucks

Reply #118 – January 23, 2017, 08:26:57 pm

I don't claim to be an expert and I don't own a 92 series Detroit, but I don't get how a crankcase vent tube could have coolant coming out of it unless the crankcase is full of coolant. All of the vent tubes on gas or diesel engines that I can remember including the 13 diesel engines that I currently own are attached to the valve covers.

Re: More coach bucks

Reply #119 – January 24, 2017, 10:49:55 am

Quote from: Dave Larsen – January 23, 2017, 08:26:57 pm

I don't claim to be an expert and I don't own a 92 series Detroit, but I don't get how a crankcase vent tube could have coolant coming out of it unless the crankcase is full of coolant. All of the vent tubes on gas or diesel engines that I can remember including the 13 diesel engines that I currently own are attached to the valve covers.

They are not crank case vent tubes, they are air box drains. You will have to understand 2 cycle DDs before you can understand what has happened here.

TOM

Re: More coach bucks

Reply #120 – January 24, 2017, 11:10:54 am

Air box drains explained. Click on the pictures to enlarge. Detroit Diesel Air Box Drains 6V92 8V92 Series - Luxury Coach Lifestyles

Pierce

Re: More coach bucks

Reply #121 – January 24, 2017, 11:11:20 am

Slobber tubes have nothing to do with crankcase vents. Slobber tubes drain oil/water from the airbox through a pressure valve that opens under pressure and usually dumps under the engine or into a catch can.
Small amounts of water/oil/fuel from the airboxes is completely normal.

Crankcase vents are something completely different and not related to airbox drains.

Re: More coach bucks

Reply #122 – January 24, 2017, 11:21:51 am

I have been draining my "Slobber Box" semi-annually for 8 years now.
I have never got anything but a small amount of oil out of it.

Engine has approx 2000 hours on it, according to tack and Pro-link.

David.... have you ever drained the tank ?

Re: More coach bucks

Reply #123 – January 24, 2017, 11:50:40 am

Quote from: Bill Chaplin – January 24, 2017, 11:21:51 am

I have been draining my "Slobber Box" semi-annually for 8 years now.
I have never got anything but a small amount of oil out of it.

Engine has approx 2000 hours on it, according to tack and Pro-link.

David.... have you ever drained the tank ?

Bill,

What's the procedure for draining the "slobber box"? I don't think mine has ever been touched! 2100 hours on my engine as read from the DDEC II. I need to make it part of my maintenance routine.

Thanks,

Jerry

Re: More coach bucks

Reply #124 – January 24, 2017, 01:45:41 pm

Quote from: OldManSax – January 24, 2017, 10:49:55 am

They are not crank case vent tubes, they are air box drains. You will have to understand 2 cycle DDs before you can understand what has happened here.

TOM

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – January 24, 2017, 11:10:54 am

Air box drains explained. Click on the pictures to enlarge. Detroit Diesel Air Box Drains 6V92 8V92 Series - Luxury Coach Lifestyles

Pierce

Quote from: jcus – January 24, 2017, 11:11:20 am

Slobber tubes have nothing to do with crankcase vents. Slobber tubes drain oil/water from the airbox through a pressure valve that opens under pressure and usually dumps under the engine or into a catch can.
Small amounts of water/oil/fuel from the airboxes is completely normal.

Crankcase vents are something completely different and not related to airbox drains.

Thanks for setting me straight guys. I have seen the crankcase vent tubes referred to as slobber tubes many times on here.

Dave

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