Solar Installation Progress - John Palmer in Mayo, FL (Palmer Energy Systems)

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Solar Installation Progress - John Palmer in Mayo, FL (Palmer Energy Systems)

February 13, 2017, 02:44:19 pm

Sunday:

Arrived at John's property Sunday afternoon. I knew from the minute I drove up, John was definitely the right guy I was looking for John caretakes an enormous plot of woodland, and has cut down a few miles of Class-A friendly and golf-cart friendly paths to the local river, a few dry camping clearings, and he lives on a trailer on the property. John is a touch eccentric, and if you don't like to listen to extreme political banter and commentary, then this is not your place - but the guy has a big heart, and is 'Good People' as they say.

John has everything he owns on wheels. A trailer for toting and filling diesel. A trailer with propane tanks mounted. A trailer with a toolshed built on top. A trailer for wiring/crimping. A tailer for panel storage. A trailer with giant water tanks. You get the idea. 144 tires in total, he told me. He buys the frames and builds everything himself from the ground up. Projects are all over the place, but it is organized chaos, and makes me jealous to the bone. He has a helper or two show up on work days, but he's clearly not playing supervisor despite his age (72). He's the primary 'do-er' around here.

Sunday afternoon we looked over the MH, looked at components, roof layouts, and came up with a plan of attack. Here is the list:
- Replacing existing battery frame
- Replacing 2 8g8d's batteries with 6 L16's
- Replacing original inverter with a 2800W pure sine Magnum
- Installing two separate morningstar 60A MPPT charge controllers for house batteries
- Installing a small 6-10 amp controller for engine battery maintenance.
- Putting as many darn panels on the roof as we can safely fit.
- Installing A/C soft start in one A/C, wiring it through inverter

Re: Solar Installation Progress - John Palmer in Mayo, FL (Palmer Energy Systems)

Reply #1 – February 13, 2017, 03:06:20 pm

Monday:

Panel Mounting:
Played with a few configurations and panel sizes, but ended up going with six 190W, 33-ish V panels. We'll wire three through the first 60A (150V max) MPPT controller, and the other three through the other. That gives us 90-100V in each controller, which is a comfortable amount. 1140W total.

Four panels fit just about perfectly in the front, with about 9 inches of clearance to the front A/C, just enough to prevent shading from the unit. We were about 5 inches short of being able to fit three panels in the rear, so we went with two. Pictures aren't great, but maybe later I'll take one from a better angle.

Battery Bank:
I showed up with the replacement frame already welded to fit the batteries. So the procedure was:
-remove wires and batteries,
-unbolt frame pieces,
-clean and seal holes,
-bolt in new frame,
-add new frame, add batteries
-cut and crimp new wires for the battery bank connections
-reattach existing wiring.

Tomorrow is panel wiring and inverter replacement.

Re: Solar Installation Progress - John Palmer in Mayo, FL (Palmer Energy Systems)

Reply #2 – February 13, 2017, 03:13:52 pm

Looks great! 1140 watts is exactly what we have. You are going to be very pleased.

P

Re: Solar Installation Progress - John Palmer in Mayo, FL (Palmer Energy Systems)

Reply #3 – February 13, 2017, 03:25:47 pm

Answering questions:
-Monday's work took the three of us around 5 hours.
-The batteries are Crown One L16 6V AGMs, with 390 AHs each. Wired in a 12V system, that gives us 1170AHs. Overkill, to be sure. But since we are wiring the A/C in through the new inverter - the high margin for error will be appreciated.

Re: Solar Installation Progress - John Palmer in Mayo, FL (Palmer Energy Systems)

Reply #4 – February 13, 2017, 04:38:14 pm

Quote from: Blinded04 – February 13, 2017, 03:25:47 pm

The batteries are Crown One L16 6V AGMs, with 390 AHs each. Wired in a 12V system, that gives us 1170AHs.

Yes, but you can only use half of it (50% discharge), so really 585 AHs to use each day. Still beats the heck out of our 2 AGM8Ds, with 245 AHs useable (at 50% discharge). I have battery envy!

Re: Solar Installation Progress - John Palmer in Mayo, FL (Palmer Energy Systems)

Reply #5 – February 13, 2017, 06:02:48 pm

Quote from: Blinded04 – February 13, 2017, 03:06:20 pm

-clean and seal holes,

You skipped the step of cleaning that dirty floor. You did an outstanding job of it. What did you use?

Inquiring minds want to know,

Trent

Re: Solar Installation Progress - John Palmer in Mayo, FL (Palmer Energy Systems)

Reply #6 – February 13, 2017, 06:13:40 pm

Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie – February 13, 2017, 04:38:14 pm

I have battery envy!

Chuck,

Us too.
We are waiting on the "flow cell" battery to be developed more.(we may be retired from the RV lifestyle before they are on the market) According to our son even with the high cost they are the next big thing in battery tech. The research company he works with claim at least a 10 year life expectancy and only loses 1 percent of its capacity every 1,000 cycles.

Pamela

Re: Solar Installation Progress - John Palmer in Mayo, FL (Palmer Energy Systems)

Reply #7 – February 13, 2017, 06:33:09 pm

Quote from: TulsaTrent – February 13, 2017, 06:02:48 pm

You skipped the step of cleaning that dirty floor. You did an outstanding job of it. What did you use?

Just baking soda and water! One of those nylon bristle shoe brushes to loosen the dirt, and an old towel to wipe it all up. It looks a lot worse than it was - mostly just road dust - came up easy.

Re: Solar Installation Progress - John Palmer in Mayo, FL (Palmer Energy Systems)

Reply #8 – February 13, 2017, 11:31:41 pm

That is 760 lbs of new batteries compared to the 335 for 2 8D's (or about 410 for three). Did you do anything to reinforce the floor or make the feet on the new base much bigger to spread out the load?

Be sure to add backwards facing air scoops like John H did over those vent holes (and the ones on the LP tank side too) to help prevent water spray from getting in there.

I am adding four L16 6V where the LP tank is now this summer.

Re: Solar Installation Progress - John Palmer in Mayo, FL (Palmer Energy Systems)

Reply #9 – February 13, 2017, 11:50:09 pm

Feet are about the same size, but the new frame has 6 feet instead of 4, and each row of three rests atop metal backed area - no weight on the insulation backed area. Feels very solid.

I read the post about John's spray shields a month or two ago - I will put it on the list!

Re: Solar Installation Progress - John Palmer in Mayo, FL (Palmer Energy Systems)

Reply #10 – February 14, 2017, 01:42:19 pm

How long are you planing on running an AC unit on the inverter? In running numbers in my head if you have full charge batteries and getting 50% out of solar cells you could run 7 hrs max.

Re: Solar Installation Progress - John Palmer in Mayo, FL (Palmer Energy Systems)

Reply #11 – February 14, 2017, 04:31:39 pm

Quote from: turbojack – February 14, 2017, 01:42:19 pm

How long are you planing on running an AC unit on the inverter? In running numbers in my head if you have full charge batteries and getting 50% out of solar cells you could run 7 hrs max.

We don't plan to get greedy. It's not too far off the inverter's max continuous load, so I don't want to consistently use that much power anyway. Maybe an hour a week on an unbearably hot day? If we have a plethora of sun/power then maybe we'll sneak in an additional hour.

Re: Solar Installation Progress - John Palmer in Mayo, FL (Palmer Energy Systems)

Reply #12 – February 14, 2017, 06:25:15 pm

Tuesday:

1. Charge controllers - we mounted these via plywood onto the storage bay cavity wall that sits directly behind the battery bank. This was not a fun area to work in, and it took far longer than it would have with a more convenient location. But it was the only option that would keep the wire run from the controllers to the batteries a reasonable length - ended up being a 6 foot run.

1. Cable runs - from panels to controllers to batteries. Even though John showed me all the numbers as to why 10 gauge was adequate, he acquiesced my request with no protest to use 8 gauge wire instead. All I ever read is that wiring is too thin, wiring run is too far, wiring is too thin. So we went with overkill. We went down the fridge vent, into the space underneath the fridge, into the battery bay, through the wall to the charge controllers, and then back from the charge controllers to the batteries. Unfortunately, the previous installer ripped open the vent cover grill at the top of the wire run. We drilled a hole in the side to re-do it, and fixed the grill as best we could.

3. Old Inverter removal - We had to detach the frame that holds the inverter and air compressor in order to remove the inverter. The new Magnum will fit inside, but we'll have to bend the frame out about and inch, and bend it back about an inch in order to get it inside. That's the plan anyway - the new inverter goes in tomorrow morning.

Other notables: John noticed that the old shunt pictured below had a 3/0 wire on one side that was much hotter than any other wire in the system. John said this was because there was a bad connection - he thought because of a bad crimp. There was corrosion underneath the connection on the shunt. In the picture below, you can see there was a little black staining on the wall, indicating some minor burning. He clipped off an inch or two, re-crimped the edges, put in the new magnum shunt, and tonight the wire is as cool as a cucumber.

Re: Solar Installation Progress - John Palmer in Mayo, FL (Palmer Energy Systems)

Reply #13 – February 14, 2017, 06:27:34 pm

More photos of Tuesday:

Re: Solar Installation Progress - John Palmer in Mayo, FL (Palmer Energy Systems)

Reply #14 – February 14, 2017, 11:27:47 pm

James. I ran #2 copper stranded down from roof to controller and that was a tough run but glad I did. I carried the #2 to batteries also
via the copper bus bars and firstly the breakers.
JohnH

Re: Solar Installation Progress - John Palmer in Mayo, FL (Palmer Energy Systems)

Reply #15 – February 15, 2017, 09:18:58 am

Impressive. I do have one question, though. The panel mounting, one clip at each corner, is it sufficient? Can't grab the panel between mounts and flex it? Not criticizing, just surprised that mounts could be this simple. No personal experience.

Re: Solar Installation Progress - John Palmer in Mayo, FL (Palmer Energy Systems)

Reply #16 – February 15, 2017, 01:56:13 pm

Quote from: Chuck Pearson – February 15, 2017, 09:18:58 am

Impressive. I do have one question, though. The panel mounting, one clip at each corner, is it sufficient? Can't grab the panel between mounts and flex it? Not criticizing, just surprised that mounts could be this simple. No personal experience.

I have absolutely no idea - but everything I've seen John do so far suggests that he takes no shortcuts and does it right - so I will assume yes until a panel breaks and needs to be replaced. One item that might be related to that train of thought: When we were discussing panel size and layout, he mentioned that he didn't like to install the big panels on certain rubber roof RVs because of the potential for flexing - particularly those who would be on bumpy roads in cold weather (Alaska was mentioned) - but he said that the old Foretravel fiberglass roofs were very solid, and there wouldn't be a lot of play.

I actually had a PM specifically about the brackets, so I attached two pictures. It's a steel two-piece mount - he drills a new hole to mount the U-Shaped bracket, which has built in threads to eliminate the need for a nut - and then the mounting bracket itself has multiple levels.

Re: Solar Installation Progress - John Palmer in Mayo, FL (Palmer Energy Systems)

Reply #17 – February 15, 2017, 01:57:45 pm

PS - the flex you see in the bracket was done in a vice to make the feet sit flat on roof.

Re: Solar Installation Progress - John Palmer in Mayo, FL (Palmer Energy Systems)

Reply #18 – February 15, 2017, 04:29:54 pm

If I remember correctly, the mount you picture is part of a garage door installation kit.

P

Re: Solar Installation Progress - John Palmer in Mayo, FL (Palmer Energy Systems)

Reply #19 – February 15, 2017, 04:40:47 pm

....They look Similar to the rocker foot mounts from amSolar they have the ability to tilt to either direction. Same as I have holding down my 160 watt panels with 3M tape and dicor.

RV Solar Panel Mounts - Mounting Solar Panels on RV - RV Solar Panel...

Re: Solar Installation Progress - John Palmer in Mayo, FL (Palmer Energy Systems)

Reply #20 – February 15, 2017, 06:10:21 pm

Wednesday:

Inverter install - In lieu of bending the old frame, John cut and extended the width two inches via weld. This required that we pull out the metal sliding drawer. John eliminated about 5 feet of excess 2 gauge wire from both the black and red side, and recrimped. Wired the A/C power in/out lines.

Display and BMK install - There was an existing Trace battery monitor meter that I really disliked - but we were able to use the existing telephone cable rather than make a new run for the Magnum display and BMK, which was great. Saved us a lot of time, particularly since I broke the old Heart inverter telephone cable line when we were removing hardware (don't ask me how), and we would have had to run a new line otherwise. Phew. There was some fairly minor wiring around the battery to add for the BMK to function.

"Manual solar disconnect" - When I saw how big the solar disconnect boxes were, I asked if there were any other options. I've also read that solar disconnect boxes aren't always a necessity, but that's another discussion. So instead, we installed 40 amp fuses I could pull in the exterior fridge access panel - I liked this solution much better. Note: Because by that point it was unclear which of those already-secured-lines were + and -, we put fuses on all 4 lines instead of figuring out which were the two positives.

Tomorrow: Rooftop wiring into the solar wire runs. Engine battery maintenance runs.

Re: Solar Installation Progress - John Palmer in Mayo, FL (Palmer Energy Systems)

Reply #21 – February 16, 2017, 03:26:14 pm

Thursday:

Panel wiring.
Wired the six panels in two series of three. Each series went in to a previously completed run to a separate charge controller. On the voltmeter, each series measured at about 125V in the shade at the junction box. I should have taken a picture of the back of the panel so I could share the exact specs. I know they are 190W, so I'm guessing rated about 45V each? I also should have taken pictures of the junctions boxes - but I did not. I was just excited to see power production, and forgot about the rest. John wanted to use a solar sealant only - no screws - to secure wires and boxes. I already have countless holes in my roof, so I was fine with this if he was. If anyone really wants to see junction box pictures, let me know and I'll take some. I did most of this work - and I'm not much good at straight lines and neatness - so it's not much to look at.

Engine battery maintenance:
Rather than a separate panel, we installed a Magnum Smart Battery Combiner. I hadn't done any reading on this - and my intuition told me (and still does) that this was a better option for those who were plugging in rather than for those who were on solar. However, John pushed this option hard with me - and I knew he would make less money from this option than from small battery maintenance panel - so I agreed. It was a very easy install - a wire on either side of the boost solonoid + ground in the engine compartment, and mounted it inside the fuse-box cavity at the foot of the bed. Does anyone have experience with the Smart Battery Combiner? Any advice to offer? I'll go through the manual in depth tonight.

Boxes:
We moved the bedroom outlets to the inverter. Also a very simple project. Move three wires and a breaker from the main panel to the inverter subpanel. We elected to hold off on the soft start A/C install, and did not move the A/C to the subpanel either - his R/V AC guy has been out sick all week (I heard him on the phone, sounded awful) - and he was tentative to tinker. I will try this as a DIY project, I opened up the A/C unit and have the original wiring diagrams - hopefully I can figure it out!

TESTING:
Ran on the new inverter all last night - and left on every appliance I could think of all night to test, and to drain the battery so we could see if the solar charging was working. Inverter works great (and doesn't pop my GFI outlet like the original modified sine wave one always did) - and I woke up at 83% charge (12.68V) even though I left a 25-ish amp draw on most of the night. The benefits of having about 600 usable ahs!

Today we "flipped the on switch" (by putting fuses in), and at 2:30pm on a 70 degree mostly sunny day in Florida, we were putting in almost 50 amps into a battery that was already at 12.7V before we stuck the fuses in!

Conclusion - John is a self-proclaimed difficult guy to deal with. But if you can handle letting strong opinions and personalities lay untouched for a few days, he sure did good enough work to earn my recommendation. He also went out of his way to make sure I was comfortable, had food, had power each night, and he even let my cats run around his property while I was here.

And the end result, 1140 watts putting 45+ amps into a reasonably charged bank in good but not perfect conditions - that is worth the recommendation alone IMO. If I encounter any reason to change that recommendation during the course of my use - I'll update this post. Also worth noting that we did the whole-tamale here, this was mighty expensive, and we'll be eating mostly PB&J sandwiches for the next year. But John does work on a much smaller scale, if that's what you are seeking.

John Palmer - (941) 928-4573 - Mayo, FL.

Re: Solar Installation Progress - John Palmer in Mayo, FL (Palmer Energy Systems)

Reply #22 – February 17, 2017, 02:15:09 am

Impressive I love all these solar posts, it gives me motivation!

I installed a smart combiner to keep my start batteries charged. It has worked out perfectly. Since certain things run off the start batteries that I didnt know about (dash radio and the cigarette lighter I have my SiriuxXM plugged into) I didn't understand why the start batteries were going dead after a week or two. After tracing power, I got it. Added the smart combiner and eliminated the alternator isolator. Now the alternator directly charges my starting batteries and as long as they are full, the combiner sends power off to the house batteries. It does the reverse when plugged in, or running generator (I dont have solar - yet) Whenever I charge the house batteries off my inverter/charger, the start batteries get topped up too, and I havent had any starting problems since installing the combiner. In my opinion, a far smarter choice than a charger or separate solar panel, for simplicity and flexibility not to mention having a lot more amps available in the event you accidentally drain the start batteries by leaving headlights on or some other draw.

Re: Solar Installation Progress - John Palmer in Mayo, FL (Palmer Energy Systems)

Reply #23 – February 18, 2017, 11:10:11 am

Nice write up James, have you enjoyed any of the country cooking at the Mayo dinner?

Re: Solar Installation Progress - John Palmer in Mayo, FL (Palmer Energy Systems)

Reply #24 – February 20, 2017, 07:33:01 am

Breakfast every morning!

Same 12-14 people in there every day at the same time.

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