Possible water in air filter?

Topic: Possible water in air filter? (Read 4329 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #75 – February 23, 2017, 10:33:15 am

Small end within the circumference of the gasket. Since the vacuum is on the inside of the cone of the filter (flows from outside the cone to the inside) and the filterminder gauge is hooked up to a port in the middle of the cover on the Unihomes (starting around 99'??), the filterminder gets its vacuum reading from the center of the cone, which depends on the small end gasket for a seal.
Don

Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie – February 23, 2017, 10:27:02 am

I'm just trying to follow this interesting discussion cuz it's...interesting.

I don't understand where this "Filterminder port" is located on the filters you guys (want) to use. Where is the hole?

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #76 – February 23, 2017, 10:45:32 am

Quote from: Don & Tys (AKA acousticart) – February 23, 2017, 10:33:15 am

Small end within the circumference of the gasket.

Thanks Don - my AF954M (DBA5024) did have that hole, although it serves no purpose in my application.

It can be seen at 11 o-clock position in photo below.

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #77 – February 23, 2017, 10:45:41 am

I did not purchase the DBA5029 with the knowledge that there were no provisions for the Filter-Minder system. After maintaining this coach for eight years and a round trip to Alaska, with horrendous dust conditions, I saw absolutely no reaction from the Filter-Minder. Yes I tested it and it does react to a vacuum. My filter had a total of 22000 miles. As I change this filter every three years or 36000 miles using the Filter-Minder is apparently is not necessary in my application.

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #78 – February 23, 2017, 10:53:00 am

Agree with you Bob," big storm in a Teacup"
JohnH

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #79 – February 23, 2017, 11:03:57 am

Losing the Filterminder is certainly not critical for most using a motorhome who change the filter regularly, but I wonder if not having the foam gasket on the end might make it a looser fit with the only gaskets to hold the filter in place being the one on the big end. I gather not too loose, or you probably would have noticed.
Don
John,
No storm in a teacup or otherwise, just a search for the facts. I know I have options, even if it isn't the Donaldson high tech Nano-web blue media filter, but I have time as I am not in a hurry.

Quote from: flite2010 – February 23, 2017, 10:45:41 am

I did not purchase the DBA5029 with the knowledge that there were no provisions for the Filter-Minder system. After maintaining this coach for eight years and a round trip to Alaska, with horrendous dust conditions, I saw absolutely no reaction from the Filter-Minder. Yes I tested it and it does react to a vacuum. My filter had a total of 22000 miles. As I change this filter every three years or 36000 miles using the Filter-Minder is apparently is not necessary in my application.

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #80 – February 23, 2017, 11:05:00 am

Thumbing through the document linked by Roger in Reply #59, I noticed a odd technical tidbit.

http://www.donaldson.com/content/dam/donaldson/engine-hydraulics-bulk/catalogs/air-intake/north-america/F110027-ENG/Air-Intake-Systems-Product-Guide.pdf

On page 63, the "EBA" filter design (reverse flow) lists a maximum airflow capability of 1850 CFM (@ 10" of water).

On page 69, the "ECG" filter design (standard flow) lists a maximum airflow capability of 1600 CFM (@ 10" of water).

So, when Foretravel moved from Unihome to Unicoach (more powerful engines), they went to a air filter arrangement that has less flow capability.

Seems kinda backasswards to me.

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #81 – February 23, 2017, 11:16:46 am

Thanks Don for continuing. No longer looking for resolution but rather following this to learn.

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #82 – February 23, 2017, 11:19:40 am

No problem with fit. The installation was the same as previous installations.

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #83 – February 23, 2017, 11:29:47 am

Thanks for all the digging that went on here. I am just wanting to make sure I have the correct filter. The wrong filter cost me more than $25K in engine damage. It is not a storm in a teacup but searching for facts and sometimes that path is a bit wandering.

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #84 – February 23, 2017, 12:11:56 pm

Thank you Roger as your posting of previous experience was what initiated my OP.

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #85 – February 23, 2017, 12:40:49 pm

Quote from: Roger & Susan in Home2 – February 23, 2017, 11:29:47 am

Thanks for all the digging that went on here. I am just wanting to make sure I have the correct filter. The wrong filter cost me more than $25K in engine damage. It is not a storm in a teacup but searching for facts and sometimes that path is a bit wandering.

Roger,
From the photo, it was incorrect filter DESIGN, not necessarily poor quality that causes your engine dusting. With air entering from the outside, going through the filter and then clean air in the filter center to the engine, the wire/support is on the WRONG SIDE= intake side.

In other words, it was set up for "reverse flow"= inside to outside.

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #86 – February 23, 2017, 01:07:26 pm

Maybe part of this thread should be renamed?
"Use the Proper engine air filter!"

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #87 – February 23, 2017, 01:19:17 pm

Quote from: FourTravelers – February 23, 2017, 01:07:26 pm

Maybe part of this thread should be renamed?
"Use the Proper engine air filter!"

Yes, MANY of the filters on coaches have housing that may "look the same" but are very different:

Fuel filters may look exactly the same, but may be 2 micron or 30. BIG difference. Is it being used as a primary filter or secondary filter. Again, BIG difference.

Coolant filters may look the same, but same have zero units of SCA, others many, many units of SCA. No one answer fits all. If you have the newer OAT-based coolants, you want ONLY the zero unit filters. If the older "low silicate for diesel with added SCA, you need to TEST THE COOLANT to determine the correct filter (different amounts of SCA). So even if it was the correct filter last change, it may not be the correct filter (based on SCA concentration) now.

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #88 – February 23, 2017, 01:40:16 pm

Still obsessing about air filter design, flow direction, Fliterminders and the like. I find myself very motivated to come to conclusions that will allow me to feel like I have a good handle on the optimum air filter solution for our coach. What I have learned so far makes me realize that filter media is generally, but not always, designed for directional flow. Some are labeled explicitly as being bidirectional. I also came across an article by the Technomadia guy, Chris Dunphy on a Baldwin air filter failure that may have cost him an expensive engine rebuild. Here is a link to the article to which I will also attach a pdf.
Baldwin Air Filter failure analysis
One of the quoted replies from a Baldwin engineering team member states;

Quote

"In the interim, I have done some research on this style of product with regard to by-directional flow. This product may be used in either inside-out flow direction or outside-in flow direction, just as the filters it is designed to replace. The medias used in air filters, regardless of brand, have a high capacity side and a low capacity side. Typically, the high capacity side of the media is on the side of the incoming air. However, it does not prevent the filter from being flown in the opposite direction. In fact some filters are made specifically to have the low capacity side of the media on the incoming air side of the filter to reach the filterʼs accumulative efficiency sooner."

The article makes for interesting reading on the general subject of large diesel engine air filtration even though it isn't about a Foretravel... to me at least. I read this when first written but since air filters weren't on my mind at the time, I hadn't paid too much attention.
Don

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #89 – February 23, 2017, 02:07:57 pm

We lost a Detroit 8V-71 in a fire truck during a major fire in Santa Barbara that burned almost 300 homes. The truck and crew were trapped and had to use the fire shelters. Unfortunately, the engine was not turned off and some burning material was sucked into the filter catching it on fire. The engine then ingested the burning material and didn't run well after that. We put fine screens on the air intake after that.

Pierce

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #90 – February 23, 2017, 03:26:40 pm

Brett, I think you are right. That filter may have been OK if the airflow had been different. In any case it was the wrong filter for the application where the air comes in the side and out the end as it is on my coach. When it got wet it failed. I don't think the PO purposely chose the wrong filter, he just took it to a local shop that put the wrong one in.

So do your homework well. It is your engine at stake.

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #91 – February 23, 2017, 04:09:31 pm

I would add to Roger's comment...that EVERY air filter fitted to your coach should have the wire mesh reinforcement on BOTH the inside and the outside of the filter medium. BOTH SIDES, regardless of which way the wind blows in your air cleaner. Just a little extra insurance against the thing coming apart, for whatever reason.

Would possibly have saved some of our members big bucks in the past.

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #92 – February 23, 2017, 04:59:20 pm

We have a Donaldson P129472 filter, gaskets on both ends, the smaller end at the end cap has a 1/16 or 1/8 hole on the end
inside the gasket ring,I think this is to pull the filter out if stuck.

Not sure what is meant by the filter minder hole in the air filter but if somehow they are bypassing the filter media for the minder
then that defeats the purpose.The minder measures the pressure drop across the air filter media.

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #93 – February 23, 2017, 05:08:04 pm

I have a Donaldson housing using black plastic encapsulated nuts (4) and bolts, the torque of 8 lbs. is written on the nut, no springs.

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #94 – February 23, 2017, 05:14:46 pm

Quote from: John44 – February 23, 2017, 04:59:20 pm

...the smaller end at the end cap has a 1/16 or 1/8 hole on the end inside the gasket ring, I think this is to pull the filter out if stuck.

Not sure what is meant by the filter minder hole in the air filter...

See Reply #72, #75 and #76 above. In some applications, that hole allows the "vacuum" signal to reach the Filter Minder.

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #95 – February 23, 2017, 05:44:37 pm

More info, looked at my housing, the filter listed for it on the label is a P129472,which switches to a DBA5025,(specs match),looks
like I have what you are calling the "reverse flo",the air comes in to the inside and thru the filter and out from the outside of the filter.

My minder is on the outside of the housing,as the filter gets clogged it takes more vacuum to pull air to engine and moves the
minder.Yes I read all the posts, and the minder hose has to be on the engine air intake with the filter between the minder and atmosphere or your not measuring the filter, maybe thats why some of the minders never work.

Haven't seen all the variations but maybe Foretravel just used whatever housings were availible at the time.

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #96 – February 23, 2017, 06:42:22 pm

It is a good lesson to all of us that our coaches are not the same, different years, different engines and it appears different air filters. So double check your set up, see if you can read the label on the side of the filter canister, if you are not sure don't guess, keep asking ... make sure your filter has wire mesh inside and out.

I checked with the Cummins Coach Care in St Paul about the WIX filter they put in mine. They called Foretravel and put in what they told them to use. He said that some filters are best used with the air flow in the direction they are designed for. There are some filters that will work either way.

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #97 – March 06, 2017, 11:44:24 pm

For over 10 years, we have been using Fleetguard AF1838 air filter. A few months ago, after finding that FilterBarn stopped selling Fleetguard products, and seeing other seller's prices much higher, we went looking for alternatives. Ended up choosing Lubrifiner LAF9396 because of its price. Well thanks to this great thread, Roger & Susan informed me that our Lubrifiner choice was not a good one.

Even though we only considered filters with metal mesh on out and inner sides, we also learned from the Forum that filters and housing are designed for directional air flow, identified as Standard for Air in the Outside & Out the End and Reverse for Air in the End.

We looked at our coach and saw the filter housing label was in perfect condition and identifies housing as Donaldson EC G11-2001 and filter as P14-8043. This week after spending a couple of hours on the Internet found more questions than answers, I asked the following to Donaldson:

--- TO SUPPORT ---

We have an on-the-road vehicle that has a Donaldson EC G11-2001 air filter housing and we don't plan to change the housing.

For years we have been using filters, but were not aware of the need to be concerned about air flow direction. Over the last week we have been doing detail research on which Donaldson air filter we should use. Our air flow is Standard with air In from the Side, and Out the End.

Our research tells us we should best use a filter designed for this Standard air flow direction, but in almost every reading of filter specifications there is no mention of air flow direction designed into the filter part number. We would like to not choose a filter designed for Reverse flow.

We will be using cone shaped filters that fit our Donaldson housing.

The small end hole was plumbed to a Filterminder gauge that has proven not to be useful, so we are not requiring the small hole anymore.

It would be nice to have a new bolt-on end cover gasket with the filter, but we could reuse the previous gasket or buy a separate gasket if it does not come with a new filter. Donaldson specs do not seem to mention if a filter comes with a new gasket, but the photo associated with the part number may show a loose gasket next to the filter. Would be nice to know for sure if a filter comes with the gasket, but this too, is not a deal breaker for purchasing the correct filter for our vehicle.

We see 2 Nano fiber filters and wonder which is standard and which is reverse air flow: DBA5029 & DBA5024.

We see several Cellulose filters with the same dimensions and want to know the differences: P150694, P151097, P148043, P129396.

I have read many Donaldson catalogs and filter specification pages, and hope that you have access to more information, because my reading has not answered my questions.

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #98 – March 06, 2017, 11:44:57 pm

Donaldson did respond with exactly what I was looking for:

--- FROM SUPPORT ---

You're correct in noting the EBA model air cleaners use a conical air filter of identical size to the ECG model air cleaners with the difference being the EBA is reverse flow, the ECG is standard flow. The filters aren't interchangeable between the two.

We also discovered an error that crept into our part detail on our website that showed a standard media element and Donaldson Blue element as alternate parts for the correct filter for your G112001. They aren't alternate parts, there's just one filter element for G112001 – P148043.

I think the simplest way to answer your question is the following:

•   G112001 is standard flow
•   G112001 is equipped with an adapter for an optional restriction indicator in the service cover
•   There's only one replacement element for G112001 – part number P148043
•   P148043 is the element that comes with a G112001 assembly when new
•   P148043 includes a new cover gasket P155211 each time you buy a replacement element (not pictured on the part detail online)
•   P148043 is cellulose media with a chemical treatment to inhibit carbon build up
•   P148043 features a gasket on both ends (not depicted in the representative image online)
•   P148043 has a small (.18" diameter) hole in the closed end cover to allow the restriction indicator to measure a delta P between the clean and dirty side of the filter (not depicted in the representative picture online)

If you were using an element other than P148043, it explains why your restriction indicator wasn't working. The other filters have closed endcaps and no gasket on the closed end so you weren't getting a delta P reading between the clean and dirty side.

I think if you only use the correct replacement filter P148043, you'll get everything you asked for; gasket on both ends, small hole in the closed end cap for the restriction indicator to operate correctly and a new cover gasket with each replacement filter purchase.

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #99 – March 06, 2017, 11:45:52 pm

Based upon my new information, I went to Fleetguard web site and was pleased to learn that the Fleetguard AF1838 we were using was correct. Fleetguard crossed this filter to Donaldson P148043.

--- CONCLUSION ---

We could continue to use Fleetguard AF1838, but are planning to immediately trash our recent Lubrifiner and buy a Donaldson P148043 air filter.

Within in a few days I went from complacency, to confusion, then information & frustration, and now a solution. Thank you Roger, thank you Forum posters and thank you Donaldson . . .

Has anyone found who may have lowest cost for Donaldson P148043 ?

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