Possible water in air filter?

Topic: Possible water in air filter? (Read 4329 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #50 – February 22, 2017, 08:40:49 pm

Your welcome Roger! I am still gnawing away at this issue, trying to get to the bottom of it. My supposition only, but so far It looks to me like Foretravel took a housing that was normally meant to flow in the opposite direction (i.e; in from the end and out the side) and fit it to their application which is largely determined by the air intake location and the necessary CFM (as far as I can tell, other than the filter choices, there isn't significant difference between the two styles). The filter that would normally go in this can doesn't have the small end gasket or presumably the hole for the filter minder. This makes the cross reference guides not as straight forward as one would think. Crossing from a known good fit is likely to be safest. I am still working on it, but at this point I am inclined to go with the DBA5024. I wish I could find a sight with product shots that clearly show both ends...
Don

Quote from: Roger & Susan in Home2 – February 22, 2017, 06:51:14 pm

Thanks Don.

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #51 – February 22, 2017, 09:04:05 pm

In post #26 Donaldson DBA5024 details say round DBA5029 details say cone. Images are some time deceiving.

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #52 – February 22, 2017, 09:19:49 pm

They are both round, both tapered. Nowhere does it say cylindrical. Don's reply 48 is pretty clear. DBA5024.

Or whatever you want to use.

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #53 – February 22, 2017, 09:23:49 pm

But back to my Post #28 I mention the tapered seam from top to bottom. Only difference I can see other than a gasket on one (top) and not on other. easy to make that out on the picture!!
JohnH

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #54 – February 22, 2017, 09:52:35 pm

I don't want to get in the middle of all you Unicoach guys, but that chart that Roger posted (reply #47) shows the DBA5024 crosses over to the Fleetguard AF954M. The AF954M is what I have been using in our coach. It is conical, and has grey lines on the outside of the paper element, which indicate that it is specifically designated for reverse flow operation. That is, the air goes in the open (big) end of the filter, passes through the paper element to the outside of the filter, and then on into the engine. As I understand this discussion, the Unicoach air intake works exactly the opposite. It would seem to me that you would not want a reverse flow element in your application.

The AF954M comes with a gasket glued to both ends plus a large loose gasket that seals the outer cover.

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #55 – February 22, 2017, 09:58:32 pm

Chuck P. , it is entirely possible that your 1996 U295 is different from my 2001 U310 with an ISM11. When Cummins rebuilt my engine after a cheap filter failed they used a WIX 42610. I trust that that one is good enough and the Donaldson DBA5024 is a somewhat better replacement for my engine.

Chose the best fit for yours.

Chuck A., On mine the air comes in from the side of the canister through the filter and out to the engine through the large end as shown in the drawing

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #56 – February 22, 2017, 10:09:05 pm

Seems to me after reading all these posts,
1st - always use a quality filter
2nd - proper fit with proper gaskets
3rd - air flow direction....... filter from inside to out (I would call this reverse) or outside to inside (seems normal to me)
Our 95 U280 flows inside to out, the later built Unicoach must be the opposite?

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #57 – February 22, 2017, 10:45:21 pm

I removed my filter rant, realizing it served no purpose. Will follow along and hope others can decipher the filter code.

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #58 – February 22, 2017, 10:54:07 pm

I do not worry about water and all the other junk that normally gets into them as my Deflector stops water and that other stuff. Had the water scare once then designed this simple thing and never any moisture again (well damp air I guess to some degree which I think is kinda normal) The one in canister now has been on since Nov 2014 and I did check it before this trip (bad boy) and it is almost as clean as new. So there.
JohnH

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #59 – February 22, 2017, 11:10:47 pm

I am going to backtrack here. Look at page 69

http://www.donaldson.com/content/dam/donaldson/engine-hydraulics-bulk/catalogs/air-intake/north-america/F110027-ENG/Air-Intake-Systems-Product-Guide.pdf

Don's picture of the EBA Konepac is for air coming in the back end and out the side.

Chuck A's comment made me look more. For the application where air comes in the side and out the end it is an ECG Konepac.

So maybe it should be the DBA 5029.

I need a return trip to Remulak to figure this out.

Now I wonder if the WIX 42610 is correct or if is bidirectional?

It says at the bottom of the Donaldson cross references that it is up to the user to decide which is correct. Wow this is confusing.

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #60 – February 23, 2017, 12:11:13 am

Just got under the coach to look at the model of canister I have and it is the ECG11-2011, so as chart shows G112001. So the 5029 is the correct one., which is the old #P14-8043.
JohnH

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #61 – February 23, 2017, 12:31:51 am

Roger,
The dimensions of the DBA 5024 & 5029 are identical. I think it is extremely likely that they are the same filter with the difference of the gasket on the small end and likely the filter minder port. It is just my theory, but I am betting that the filter medium is bidirectional. I suppose high tech manufacturing could design a filter medium that be comprised of nano-venturis to optimize flow in one direction, and the medium could be reversed between the DBA 5024 and 5029, but I doubt that is the case. As I said before, I suspect that Foretravel reversed the flow compared to that diagram and that the direction of flow is only crucial when the filter medium is not constrained by the wire mesh on both sides of it, but I could be mistaken and am going to keep digging. It is possible that only a call to Donaldson will settle the question. However, one thing I fell sure of is that there needs to be a gasket on the small end of the filter to provide a snug fit to insure that the big end of the filter is sealed around the turbo inlet side, and have a port so that the filter minder reads from the vacuum side of the housing. Finally, I am going to get a picture of the filter housing label to see what the part number of the housing is. I am not in a hurry, but I do want to settle this. Given what you experienced when your engine was trashed with a wrong filter, I can certainly understand your concern, and in the interest of avoiding that kind of trauma, I feel the same!
Don

Quote from: Roger & Susan in Home2 – February 22, 2017, 11:10:47 pm

I am going to backtrack here. Look at page 69

http://www.donaldson.com/content/dam/donaldson/engine-hydraulics-bulk/catalogs/air-intake/north-america/F110027-ENG/Air-Intake-Systems-Product-Guide.pdf

Don's picture of the EBA Konepac is for air coming in the back end and out the side.

Chuck A's comment made me look more. For the application where air comes in the side and out the end it is an ECG Konepac.

So maybe it should be the DBA 5029.

I need a return trip to Remulak to figure this out.

Now I wonder if the WIX 42610 is correct or if is bidirectional?

It says at the bottom of the Donaldson cross references that it is up to the user to decide which is correct. Wow this is confusing.

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #62 – February 23, 2017, 12:39:50 am

Thanks John! Still, I am not convinced that the DBA 5029 will be the right choice in the Foretravel application, unless it does have the small end gasket and the filter minder port. I am going to get to the bottom of this! If anyone orders the DBA 5029 and can confirm that it has these attributes, I will be only to happy to put it to rest. Since the dimensions are identical as listed in the Donaldson catalog, the only questions that remain are 1. Is the medium itself bidirectional, and 2. Does the 5029 have a filter minder port and is there a gasket on the end?
Will be happy to put this one to bed for tonight! zzzzz....
Don

Quote from: John Haygarth – February 23, 2017, 12:11:13 am

Just got under the coach to look at the model of canister I have and it is the ECG11-2011, so as chart shows G112001. So the 5029 is the correct one., which is the old #P14-8043.
JohnH

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #63 – February 23, 2017, 01:15:51 am

From Donaldson ...

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #64 – February 23, 2017, 01:41:29 am

I see it! But still... going to keep digging. Is there a publication date on that document? Anyway, here is an interesting thread form five or so years ago;
Air Filter - Engine
There is a guy on there who is or was (or at least claimed to be

) a Field Service Engineer with "a company that has something to do with "Coolants, Cooling Systems, Filtration, Diesel Engines". Anyway, there are is some interesting discussion about the different schemes FOT has used in different years. We aren't the first head scratchers on the quest to come to grips with this vital system on our coaches. What you posted would seem to settle it, and yet I remain confused about what part to order. All I know is that Simplyfiter (I thought it was Filterbarn, but they were out of stock) sent me a Fleetguard filter that crossed according to the book, and I had to modify it to make it work by gluing a gasket on it from my old filter. I don't remember whether or not it had the filter minder port in it or whether I added it to match the old one, but I do remember it was a PITA to remove the old one without destroying it. It did (and does) have mesh on both sides of the medium. Looking back at the receipt, I see they sent me a Fleetguard AF1838 and not a Fleetguard AF1838M (as called for in the owners manual). Hmm... Could be the difference, but I can't find a cross for the Fleetguard AF1838M, only the AF1838. Okay, I give up for now because I am just spinning my wheels at this point

Goodnight all!
Don

Quote from: Roger & Susan in Home2 – February 23, 2017, 01:15:51 am

From Donaldson ...

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #65 – February 23, 2017, 09:45:32 am

Quote from: Roger & Susan in Home2 – February 23, 2017, 01:15:51 am

From Donaldson ...

THANKS for posting that reference. After I made my comment about the "dark lines" on the outside of the filter media, I tried to find where I'd read that, and didn't have any luck. Back when I had the incident of the rats building a nest in my air filter, someone on the Forum pointed me at that same exact reference, and told me to check my new filter to be sure it was correct.

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #66 – February 23, 2017, 10:02:40 am

AF1838 - Fleetguard | Air Filter

This is a link to Simplyfilter showing the one I buy P14-8043 which is a crossover for the DBA 5029 and showing the foam seals at both ends. I have allways ordered by this P# and had no problem getting it and it also had the Filterminder small hole.
Never ordered from these people but they have a good picture of it.
JohnH

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #67 – February 23, 2017, 10:06:20 am

That is structurally identical to the Fleetguard I am using.

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #68 – February 23, 2017, 10:08:50 am

I replaced my air filter with a Donaldson DBA5029. It does not have the gasket /hole for use with the Filter-Minder. It also did not come with a replacement cover gasket. I was told by Donaldson that they feel reuseing the cover gasket is acceptable. Cover nuts are 8ft lb maximum. Stamped on the nut.
DBA5024 is a reverse air filter, not bidirectional. It is not recommended as a replacement of the OEM filter.

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #69 – February 23, 2017, 10:16:37 am

Thanks Bob, nice and decisive.
I just looked at the Donaldson Australia site and they show the DBA 5029 as also crossing with the P14-8043 AND the P150694 which according to Rogers pic of catalogue is the one to use, BUT as mentioned crosses with others.
Beam alarm has it right as shown in FT books in each coach.
JohnH

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #70 – February 23, 2017, 10:16:58 am

That picture clearly shows the gasket on the small end snd it is the place where I ordered my last one. Guess the one I got without a gasket was a fluke... still, I would like to get the appropriate Donaldson Blue filter with the nano web media, which from the crossover reference, should be the 5029. For most of the parts these diesel engines use, you can find dimension CAD drawings with every detail delineated. Amazing with this crucial system, all I can find (from Donaldson at least) is a product beauty shot in profile...
Don

Quote from: John Haygarth – February 23, 2017, 10:02:40 am

AF1838 - Fleetguard | Air Filter

This is a link to Simplyfilter showing the one I buy P14-8043 which is a crossover for the DBA 5029 and showing the foam seals at both ends. I have allways ordered by this P# and had no problem getting it and it also had the Filterminder small hole.
Never ordered from these people but they have a good picture of it.
JohnH

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #71 – February 23, 2017, 10:21:37 am

So no small end gasket, and no Filterminder port... seems like a poor match to me.

So to be able to use the DBA 5029, one must extract the small end gasket and make there own hole? Did you just do away with the Filteminder function?
Don

Quote from: flite2010 – February 23, 2017, 10:08:50 am

I replaced my air filter with a Donaldson DBA5029. It does not have the gasket /hole for use with the Filter-Minder. It also did not come with a replacement cover gasket. I was told by Donaldson that they feel reuseing the cover gasket is acceptable. Cover nuts are 8ft lb maximum. Stamped on the nut.
DBA5024 is a reverse air filter, not bidirectional. It is not recommended as a replacement of the OEM filter.

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #72 – February 23, 2017, 10:27:02 am

Quote from: Don & Tys (AKA acousticart) – February 23, 2017, 10:21:37 am

So no small end gasket, and no Filterminder port...

I'm just trying to follow this interesting discussion cuz it's...interesting.

I don't understand where this "Filterminder port" is located on the filters you guys (want) to use. Where is the hole?

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #73 – February 23, 2017, 10:27:42 am

Order the P14-8043 and it comes as needed. Like I said still available by the looks of it. End of problem I would think!!
JohnH

Filter hole is in the end of filter small end.

Re: Possible water in air filter?

Reply #74 – February 23, 2017, 10:29:02 am

Will look at my filter later today ,it is a Donaldson but not blue will post findings.

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