Radiator replacement (photos)

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Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #25 – April 04, 2017, 04:58:15 pm

Just an update, I just completed a drive from Tucson to Deming NM. The coolant was running around 190 to 200 degrees on the up hills until I turned on the Hayden 1290 Auxilliary radiator I installed behind the grill in my U300. The coolant temps immediately dropped to the 170's in the same terrain and ambient temps. I think this proves that the flow of the coolant through the 3/4" radiator hose is more than adequate dramatically improve engine cooling. FWIW

Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #26 – April 04, 2017, 06:02:49 pm

kent
Did you install a fan on the aux radiator?
Bill

Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #27 – April 04, 2017, 08:10:21 pm

I did install a fan but have never used it. It is on a separate switch and my intent is to use it only when at slow urban speeds. I think overall it works just fine without an electric fan.

Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #28 – April 04, 2017, 08:19:40 pm

Another option, farm equipment that operates in dirty areas are being fitted with a hydraulic fan and controller that changes the pitch of the fan blades to alter flow. Currently they are more focused on completely reversing the pitch to blow dirt etc back out the rad core the way it came in. Varying the pitch could really increase the efficiency of the system allowing more air flow than the current fans at peak and yet infinite adjustment to airflow up to that point.

Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #29 – April 04, 2017, 09:21:39 pm

Just my opinion, but the often quoted 50 hp fan load is total BS. Somebody fat fingered a zero after the 5 while typing. I have run numerous fan simulations on the diameter of the fans installed in coaches any can't get much more than 5 hp at less than 130 dB of noise at a high density temperature of -20 F (this assumes that the fan is upstream of the radiator). To further reinforce this point is the belt that operates the fan or the hydraulic pump is probably maxed out at less than 5 hp.

Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #30 – April 04, 2017, 09:53:06 pm

The old car compressors used more than 5 HP the new ones 4 They are quite small compared to the hyd pumps.
The Cummins is gear driven

Automobile air conditioning - Wikipedia

If someone knows the flow rate and the psi this will tell the answer
Hydraulic Pump Horsepower Calculator
I just checked what my Cat 977 pump drew and it was 87.51 HP 50 GPM @ 3000 psi

Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #31 – April 04, 2017, 10:22:56 pm

A Toyota RAV4 like ours has a 7 rib belt and uses 25 to 40 hp to run the tensioner, PS, AC, alternator and water pump. A new Mustang ups the total to 30 to 50 hp. Just AC requires 5 to 6 hp. This indicates the belts do have to be extremely tough. Our OEM Toyota belt went well over 100,000 miles before I replaced it.

When Foretravel went to the horizontal side radiator from the vertical side radiator, with two fans instead of one and a larger pump on the U300, they also went to an eight rib belt from the six (but forgot to put the change in any user information).

If you know the gallons per minute and the pressure required, fill in the blanks in the linked table: Hydraulic Pump Horsepower Calculator

Pierce

Re: transmission cooler

Reply #32 – April 04, 2017, 11:45:27 pm

That's one very sick looking radiator with excessive corrosion for its age. Seen many radiators much older that looked three times better. Might want to check for stray voltages causing electrolysis. Not a electrical guru and can't help chase these demons but I have seen the similar cases in building HVAC systems, with the same premature destruction. Dissimilar metals in the radiator construction don't help.

Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #33 – April 04, 2017, 11:57:13 pm

5 ton ac unit uses approximately 5 hp would have to have a 14" diameter fan to deliver about 1600 cfm thru the tiny dash vents not happening. Most coaches appear to be slightly less than 3 hp to deliver about 34,000 btuh of dash air. PS doesn't use much on realitively straight roads. 200 Amp Alternator can maybe consume as much as 5 hp at full load. Water pump maybe 1 hp. 12 scfm air compressor for service brakes etc I am guessing at about 5 hp. Engine cooling fans at 5-7 hp worst cause scenario. Assumed hydraulic flows and pressures go out the window based on actual work done based on mass flow of the fan which I very highly doubt is is much over 5-7 hp. My best conservative estimate its never go over 20-30 hp at peak load. Correct me if anybody has other evidence. That's how we learn if I missed something.

Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #34 – April 05, 2017, 01:14:16 am

Quote from: Old phart phred – April 04, 2017, 11:45:27 pm

That's one very sick looking radiator with excessive corrosion for its age. Seen many radiators much older that looked three times better. Might want to check for stray voltages causing electrolysis. Not a electrical guru and can't help chase these demons but I have seen the similar cases in building HVAC systems, with the same premature destruction. Dissimilar metals in the radiator construction don't help.

After seeing it, I'm surprised that it cooled as well as it did; the only problem I encountered was on long steep grades. Considering the very poor air flow through it, I suspect that the fans created a vacuum resulting in them having to work harder. It would not surprise me to see better mileage after this.

Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #35 – April 05, 2017, 01:17:26 am

I'm continuing to take photos as I dismantle the fan, etc. Is there any interest in them and if so, should I continue posting on this thread? My reason for the photos is to help in reassembly.

Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #36 – April 05, 2017, 07:43:59 am

A buddy of mine with a '95 U320 visited 5 years ago and we pulled his radiator and had it rebuilt with a new core at a local shop. I would say it looked worse. There were some areas on the fan side where the fins were completely gone - just tubes. He was based in Missouri and had driven on salted roads - creates a perfect salt-fog chamber behind those rear dual tires. He didn't have any overheating or leaking issue either. In fact this was all triggered by my "taking a look underneath" when he got here. Best to do repairs proactively - on the road repairs are very costly and inconvenient.

It was a bear of a job. The rear tires were driven up on blocks and all I had at the time were some wood blocks and jacks. He insisted on not pulling the fiberglass siding so it had to drop and tilt so the bottom would come out first. Two of us lifting it onto the bed of the pickup was no fun either.

Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #37 – April 05, 2017, 08:43:33 am

I could not imagine pulling the radiator, along with the CAC, without removing the fiberglass - and then lifting it into a truck bed! He had to be a REALLY good friend.

Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #38 – April 05, 2017, 08:53:30 am

Quote from: Sven and Kristi – April 05, 2017, 01:17:26 am

I'm continuing to take photos as I dismantle the fan, etc. Is there any interest in them and if so, should I continue posting on this thread? My reason for the photos is to help in reassembly.

The more pictures the better.

Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #39 – April 05, 2017, 09:14:14 am

Quote from: Sven and Kristi – April 05, 2017, 01:17:26 am

Is there any interest in them and if so, should I continue posting on this thread?

YES, please!

One of the valuable functions of this Forum is to act as a archive - a place to store unique records for the benefit of both current, and future, coach owners. Big complicated projects like yours don't happen that often. If you document your efforts with lots of commentary and photos, you are helping all of us to understand what is involved, and how the problem could best be addressed should we ever be in the same situation.

It's a "pay it forward" thing...you benefit from the Forum, and then you post a thread like this, and in return provide knowledge to other members.

Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #40 – April 05, 2017, 12:16:07 pm

Sven, like I have PM'd you and written here on forum we NEED to see more pictures of each stage. As I have mentioned to you before I am considering doing this too as a precaution so although I have a fair idea of what happens (due to your previous info and pics) it is for others to know when they run into this job and posterity that we ask you to post every one you take please. It only takes afew minutes to do 10 at a time once a day but the information it gives will last many many years.
Thanks for what you have done so far, keep it up.
JohnH

and as a reminder you should coat all the steel parts with a Phosphoric acid wash as this will help restore the rusty parts and then paint with black enamel paint. You can buy it in gallon plastic containers at Lowes or Home Depot in paint section.

Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #41 – April 05, 2017, 12:28:09 pm

Growing up in California, I had no idea what road chemicals can do to a vehicle. Cars last forever, right? In Germany, my initial business was in used cars. I was astounded by the damage salt can do to a car and how quickly it acts. I was equally shocked with what Germans considered a "rust free" car. We had a year pass at the local car wash and every night on the way home, we stopped to get the car de-contaminated with a wash that included special jets for the undercarrige.

So, when shopping for a Foretravel, one of the new 12V electric screw guns is nice to have with you to pull the louvers off the front of the radiator. Two minutes later, you have the entire radiator to view without crawling underneath. Any kind of corrosion/erosion to the radiator means there is more to be found in fittings, electrical, etc, especially important in the bulkhead area. Not that you shouldn't check other places but a bad radiator should get you headed back to the airport. Easy to open the engine door and look at the hydraulic fittings. They should be clean and ready to worked on not rusty. All pushers will have some rust in the back but it should be light.

The rule for being a happy buyer/owner is no matter what you paid for that airline ticket, rental car, motel, don't let your optimism cloud your judgement. Unless it's pretty corrosion free, it's going to require more maintenance down the road. Rust and corrosion also mean more difficult maintenance when fittings don't want to come loose or the relay mounting screw is rusted in place, etc.

Even high resolution photos are almost always optimistic and take even the nicest owner's description with a grain of SALT.

Quoting John: Brushing light rust with phosphoric acid is a good way of prepping the surface for paint. Lots of brushing may be necessary. Self etching primer sticks really well if the surface is clean and won't chip off. More money than Krylon but it pays.

Pierce

Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #42 – April 05, 2017, 03:54:11 pm

Having been raised in Micronesia, I am very familiar with rust. In the 60's we didn't change the oil in our cars, since the body rotted well before the engine failed. I am using an angle grinder with 36 grit sanding pads to bring all the metal fan brackets down to bare metal. I then coat them with paintable Permatex rust treatment, a coat of red primer then Rustoleum satin black paint. The parts come out looking like new.
On my 2000, you cannot see the radiator from the side, since the CAC blocks the entire view until the fiberglass side is removed. On the inside, I was only able to see the fins with a mirror because of the shroud. Because of the visible rust on the radiator frame, I suspected I would have to replace the radiator at some point. Since the rust is on thick metal where there was no "rust through", I knew I could clean that up. When I made the purchase, it was at a relatively low price for a unique FT that met our needs; we knew that we would not find another like it.

Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #43 – April 05, 2017, 05:04:19 pm

Pierce,

Would't the copper pipe do heat extraction on the wat to the front and back, as well?

Carter-

Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #44 – April 05, 2017, 05:33:01 pm

Quote from: Texas Guy – April 05, 2017, 05:04:19 pm

Pierce,

Would't the copper pipe do heat extraction on the wat to the front and back, as well?

Carter-

Not sure you want to add heat to the wiring loom and to a lesser degree, the basements.

Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #45 – April 05, 2017, 05:56:38 pm

Quote from: Texas Guy – April 05, 2017, 05:04:19 pm

Pierce,
Would't the copper pipe do heat extraction on the wat to the front and back, as well?
Carter-

Carter,

Quite right. Some good in that and some bad, depending on the season. Running the copper through the interior would be a bad idea in summer.

I did a heated floor but changed over to a direct vent diesel heater in the house so have plenty of 3/4" copper pipe. If I have room, I would like to go with a larger diameter pipe but once I see the clearance that I have, I can figure the friction loss compared to doubling up the 3/4" Two pipes of the same diameter will have only one fourth of the friction loss if pumping the same gallons per minute as a single pipe. Again, it's the water tank to floor clearance that is the stumbling block. The rest is easy. The existing hose goes to the water heater so driving supplies hot water. Hate to lose that but will see how easy it is.

Good flow is important but the VW Vanagon actually put a washer in the line to the front to restrict the flow and get a better heat exchange.

I do know that the electric fans won't move as much air through the main radiator so I'm not under any illusion there.

As far as the last comment goes, it's easy to just use a residential foam wrap on the copper in any problem area.

Pierce

Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #46 – April 05, 2017, 08:19:26 pm

Caterpillar has a interesting Rv power guide. At 1200 rpm fan speed they consume 14hp.

At 1800 rpm 50 hp. That's with the fan on high

Cat says they are a major power consumer.

Just reread the cat brochure but unsure how to link it.

"Understanding coach/Rv performance"

Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #47 – April 05, 2017, 09:05:41 pm

Quote from: Sven and Kristi – April 05, 2017, 01:17:26 am

I'm continuing to take photos as I dismantle the fan, etc. Is there any interest in them and if so, should I continue posting on this thread? My reason for the photos is to help in reassembly.

Absolutely!

The primary intent when we created this forum was to preserve knowledge so that others could find it in the future. Photos of the fan disassembly/service/reassembly are very much desired!

Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #48 – April 05, 2017, 09:14:16 pm

Quote from: Caflashbob – April 05, 2017, 08:19:26 pm

Caterpillar has a interesting Rv power guide. At 1200 rpm fan speed they consume 14hp.

At 1800 rpm 50 hp. That's with the fan on high

Cat says they are a major power consumer.

Just reread the cat brochure but unsure how to link it.

"Understanding coach/Rv performance"

http://www.rvtechlibrary.com/engine/Cat_RV_Performance.pdf

Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #49 – April 05, 2017, 11:17:36 pm

Quote from: Michelle – April 05, 2017, 09:05:41 pm

Absolutely!

The primary intent when we created this forum was to preserve knowledge so that others could find it in the future. Photos of the fan disassembly/service/reassembly are very much desired!

I can disassemble anything.

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