Radiator replacement (photos)

Topic: Radiator replacement (photos) (Read 2464 times) previous topic - next topic

Radiator replacement (photos)

March 28, 2017, 11:51:59 am

(I've changed the subject heading, since I added radiator photos and info - scroll down)

Does anyone have any info on the transmission coolers for the ISM? I'm looking for the vendor/manufacturer, model #, etc. I emailed FT, but have not had a response yet. I'm looking for a replacement. FT has one for $2400, but since they had more than a 100% mark up on the radiator, I'm looking for an alternative.

Re: transmission cooler

Reply #1 – March 28, 2017, 02:33:55 pm

Call Stewart & Stevenson in Dallas, 214-631-5307

Re: transmission cooler

Reply #2 – March 28, 2017, 03:40:42 pm

The one FT uses is a coaxial cooler. Transmission fluid goes through lots little tubes inside a bigger tube filled with engine coolant. Cross contamination is an expensive repair. I am not sure how an external transmission radiator cooler would work but let us know.

Re: transmission cooler

Reply #3 – March 28, 2017, 05:37:07 pm

Quote from: Roger & Susan in Home2 – March 28, 2017, 03:40:42 pm

The one FT uses is a coaxial cooler. Transmission fluid goes through lots little tubes inside a bigger tube filled with engine coolant. Cross contamination is an expensive repair. I am not sure how an external transmission radiator cooler would work but let us know.

My external transmission cooler works exactly the same way (ref. My Allison is acting up). When it was installed they had to plumb the engine coolant through the transmission cooler.

Roland

Re: transmission cooler

Reply #4 – April 01, 2017, 04:51:54 pm

I did find the manufacturer of the cooler and negotiated a price of $1415.00, a huge reduction from the FT quote. It should be here on Thursday. For those who have an interest or are researching the archives some years from now, it is a Rocor 3-1279B. I was able to get the model # from the FT parts counter.
I also ordered two seal kits for the fans from Turolla (221.20.034 OK) through their CA distributor ($122 each).
Lots of "coach bucks" this year.

Re: transmission cooler

Reply #5 – April 01, 2017, 08:30:58 pm

Sven, you have not posted any pictures of your strip down of rad etc yet and I (we) are waiting for them!!
This is a major part of being a Forum member, keeping us up to date of changes. one other thing can you give me the link for the fan motor parts that you mention from Turolla. I tried to find it on their wesite but now were to put in those part #s. thanks
JohnH

Re: transmission cooler

Reply #6 – April 02, 2017, 12:39:04 pm

John, I would love to post the photos and brag, but I have not been able to down load on to the site. I followed the directions and it asks for a URL and that is where I'm stuck. With regard to the Turolla parts, I had to make numerous phone calls (old school) to nail down the info. I didn't post the distributor's phone number since that would only benefit those within her district.

With radiator out of the way, I now have to disengage the fan motors from their rusted connections. I've drawn a diagram of where all the hoses go and will ID them with colored tape. I've also started putting penetrating oil on the rusty connections.
Two questions: 1-Should I keep the old fan blades or are there better ones out there. 2- Any good suggestions on loosening the connections?

Re: transmission cooler

Reply #7 – April 02, 2017, 04:24:29 pm

Sven, for pictures scroll down in reply posting past the "post" box till you see the wording "add files by dragging & dropping (and highlighted a bit next is the wording-or select them) click on -select them and this connect you to your files so then go to wherever you have the pictures on your computer. You then select them and then click on OPEN. this sends them to forum download and once the + has changed to a - the next one will be uploaded. etc. After you have up to 10 pictures in a single posting you then click on the POST button as usual..
Try it as I am sure you will get the hang of it. or send them to my email address and I will post for you.
JohnH

Re: transmission cooler

Reply #8 – April 02, 2017, 07:41:59 pm

Quote from: Sven and Kristi – April 02, 2017, 12:39:04 pm

John, I would love to post the photos and brag, but I have not been able to down load on to the site. I followed the directions and it asks for a URL and that is where I'm stuck. With regard to the Turolla parts, I had to make numerous phone calls (old school) to nail down the info. I didn't post the distributor's phone number since that would only benefit those within her district.

With radiator out of the way, I now have to disengage the fan motors from their rusted connections. I've drawn a diagram of where all the hoses go and will ID them with colored tape. I've also started putting penetrating oil on the rusty connections.
Two questions: 1-Should I keep the old fan blades or are there better ones out there. 2- Any good suggestions on loosening the connections?

To undo the connections get the 2 wrench sizes and align them so they can be squeezed together like a pair of scissors. That prevents harming the motor. They are AN fittings and normally come apart without galling.

Re: transmission cooler

Reply #9 – April 03, 2017, 06:48:40 pm

Hopefully the photos came through.

Re: transmission cooler

Reply #10 – April 03, 2017, 07:09:02 pm

Well done Sven you got them posted. Now how about posting all the ones of various stages of undoing bolts, anchors etc. How long did it take you to get it out once you started at it? Is the rad mainly held in place by those long threaded rods and side brackets. so mostly taking hoses off and the hydraulic motors and frame off the rear of rad. Nice to see a nice open side so now you can also work cleaning up the engine and bits hanging on that side that is now easy to work on. Post another bunch please.
Forgot to ask did you drop the rad partly then take off top bolts for pumps or do it before you undid the end mounts of rad?
JohnH

Re: transmission cooler

Reply #11 – April 03, 2017, 07:48:35 pm

Good questions John; I may do a write up on MS Word with photos for the archives. I saw the photos on "Beamalarm" for the 2002 U320, but I had many specific questions that weren't addressed.
The radiator is held up by two large bolts, visible at the top corners and two diagonal rods attached to brackets (photo). On the back side are four hoses arranged vertically, visible when the engine cover is raised. All of these are fairly easy to remove, but I had to use two vise grips to keep the rods from spinning while removing the bolts. The most difficult aspect was removing fan brackets which are attached to the radiator on the inboard side at the top and the bottom (photo) of the fan shrouds. I tried doing this from under the bed, but found it impossible to get at the top bolts (two or three bolts on each bracket. I ended up lowering the radiator and allowing it to tilt forward so that I could get to bolts from the outside. Only with the radiator completely removed could I remove the brackets from the radiator itself. Motorcycle lifts from Harbor Freight did a great job slowly lowering the radiator and allowing me to pull it out. I could easily have done it with one lift. Because of the upper bolt brackets ("ears") I had to remove the engine batter compartment frame and door.

Re: transmission cooler

Reply #12 – April 03, 2017, 08:42:20 pm

More: Transmission cooler, transmission data decal, fans, California Special (bonus) - my previous project.

Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #13 – April 04, 2017, 12:57:49 am

I'm digging those American wheels... looks sharp

Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #14 – April 04, 2017, 01:16:11 am

Thanks Sven, gives me a pretty good idea of what to expect when I have to do it. My parts/bolts etc are not as rusty as yours look and hose fittings are actually dirty but looking normal so should be easier to undo. With having the pit I am sure will make for a lot of easier working. I will take the side off but think I do not need to remove battery door and framing as I will be able to drop it down into pit if needed.
Keep the good work up.
JohnH

Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #15 – April 04, 2017, 06:38:53 am

You did a great job and yes that is how MOT removed my fans by tilting it. I also had one done on my 270 and I helped the guy do that one when it was done but that was 14 years ago now. The transmission cooler is an easy replacement if you find the part.Good job in doing this yourself. I love the tractor. Mine is a bit bigger but they all work.

Re: transmission cooler

Reply #16 – April 04, 2017, 08:28:17 am

Quote from: Sven and Kristi – April 03, 2017, 08:42:20 pm

California Special (bonus) - my previous project.

Nice! I would wager that the Mustang was a much more enjoyable project...at least everything on it was a more manageable size.

Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #17 – April 04, 2017, 08:48:27 am

With the improvements that have been made with electric fans could the hydraulic

fans be replaced with electric ones, and be as efficient? If it worked the maintenance

cost should be way less than the hydraulic motors, pump, hoses, regulator, etc.

Carter-

Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #18 – April 04, 2017, 09:11:22 am

Quote from: Texas Guy – April 04, 2017, 08:48:27 am

With the improvements that have been made with electric fans could the hydraulic

fans be replaced with electric ones, and be as efficient? If it worked the maintenance

cost should be way less than the hydraulic motors, pump, hoses, regulator, etc.

Carter-

In a word, NO. Takes too much HP to run them/provide sufficient CFM's of air flow to be done with electricity-- at least from a practical standpoint.

Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #19 – April 04, 2017, 11:16:37 am

That's the summer project. Installing an aluminum radiator up front like Kent and Andy did only even larger and then getting rid of the entire hydraulic system. The plan is to install four electric fans on the rear radiator and two in the nose with a 300 amp alternator where the hydraulic motor was. The high amp alternators even come with a ribbed pulley and will use the stock tensioner. The ram air should really help once the coach is moving and the switchable nose fans for city driving. The only difficult thing may be moving enough coolant to the front and back through the small heater lines. For a bus style coach, the options are more limited. Example front radiator at: 4 Row All Aluminum Performance Radiator For 1985 - 97 Ford F-Series | eBay

On that pre-purchase checklist, checking the radiator condition has to be toward the top. Significant rust on the hyd motor, pumps, radiator brackets, corrosion on the radiator gives a pretty good clue what the bulkheads may be like.

In San Francisco, the driver of a Euro tour bus gave me a pretty good look at the mechanical end of the bus. It had an air cooled pancake diesel with a single large electric fan mounted on the body, above the engine. The engine was idling at the time with the AC compressor going but the fan was off. Convection cooled the engine at idle while the big fan was on a thermostatic switch. Rear wheels also turned about 20 degrees for pulling out of parking stops and the engine had modular connectors so it only took 20 minutes to remove it.

Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #20 – April 04, 2017, 11:41:26 am

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – April 04, 2017, 11:16:37 am

The only difficult thing may be moving enough coolant to the front and back through the small heater lines.

You won't have enough volume through heater hoses for the front radiator to do anything more than supplement the rear. If you don't get the same cfm with the electric fans that you have now you will run hotter. Check the HP needed for the electric to match the HP of the hydraulic motors.

Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #21 – April 04, 2017, 12:58:49 pm

Quote from: craneman – April 04, 2017, 11:41:26 am

You won't have enough volume through heater hoses for the front radiator to do anything more than supplement the rear. If you don't get the same cfm with the electric fans that you have now you will run hotter. Check the HP needed for the electric to match the HP of the hydraulic motors.

Quite true. I don't expect to get the same CFM from the electric fans and expect the front radiator(s) to do much of the work. I have a lot of 3/4" L copper pipe and was thinking I could double up and bring two up and two back. Two pipes compared to one is only one fourth the friction loss for the same GPM. Copper pipe has a thin wall so I may be able to run still larger pipes to the front. A couple of 1 1/2" copper pipes should supply plenty of coolant. Doubling up on the front radiators would be a cheap and effective solution to the needlessly complex and expensive hydraulic system. I think the earlier rear radiator models with engine driven fan had a lot going for them with the big exception of engine access.

Bringing larger piping to the front has a couple of options. Up through the interior of the coach or under the floor. Under the floor on the driver's side has a clearance problem above the water tank. The rest is easy with the generator and storage compartment having no clearance problem.

My 4107 GM bus had a single mechanical fan from a PTO drawing air through a very large radiator. Never a problem with overheating.

Pierce

Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #22 – April 04, 2017, 01:14:26 pm

Bret convinced me that there isn't a viable alternative to these OE fans. Are there better blades out there that might offer less resistance or be more efficient?

Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #23 – April 04, 2017, 01:32:46 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – April 04, 2017, 12:58:49 pm

Quite true. I don't expect to get the same CFM from the electric fans and expect the front radiator(s) to do much of the work. I have a lot of 3/4" L copper pipe and was thinking I could double up and bring two up and two back. Two pipes compared to one is only one fourth the friction loss for the same GPM. Copper pipe has a thin wall so I may be able to run still larger pipes to the front. A couple of 1 1/2" copper pipes should supply plenty of coolant. Doubling up on the front radiators would be a cheap and effective solution to the needlessly complex and expensive hydraulic system. I think the earlier rear radiator models with engine driven fan had a lot going for them with the big exception of engine access.

Bringing larger piping to the front has a couple of options. Up through the interior of the coach or under the floor. Under the floor on the driver's side has a clearance problem above the water tank. The rest is easy with the generator and storage compartment having no clearance problem.

My 4107 GM bus had a single mechanical fan from a PTO drawing air through a very large radiator. Never a problem with overheating.

Pierce

The hydraulic system may being over criticized as I have only replaced the pump seal in the 1981 and the motor seal is still not leaking. On my current '99 I installed one seal kit and one seal only in the 2 motors. parts cost with shipping less than $150. It does take labor but so does your conversion. Maybe if you succeed you can compare alternator costs and all other expenses for the conversion and post how you like it.

Re: Radiator replacement (photos)

Reply #24 – April 04, 2017, 01:43:57 pm

Quote from: Sven and Kristi – April 04, 2017, 01:14:26 pm

Bret convinced me that there isn't a viable alternative to these OE fans. Are there better blades out there that might offer less resistance or be more efficient?

No. You just have a big heat exchanger sitting there with no advantage to whether the coach is stationary or moving at 70 mph. It's a lose/lose situation. The hydraulic pump and motor(s) both lose efficiency so there is a cost paid here also.

VW, Porsche and others have successfully put a water cooled engine in the back with the radiator in the front. Doesn't take rocket science to figure out how to do it when designing a coach. Some buses have even put the radiator on the roof. Like I said above, my 4107 had a simple PTO driving a single fan on the rear/side radiator. I never got less than 10 mpg with it either.

Yes, the hydraulics can be overhauled and the $150 is nothing compared to the frustration of all the associated parts. Starting with Foretravel not listing the correct belt for the later U300s, not taking the time to correctly align the pulleys, all the related hydraulic hoses, hi/low speed switches and the time/expense and inconvenience to replace them on the road (and clean the rear plus toad), pulling the pump or motors off while by the side of the road in a no reception cell phone location.

Pierce

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