trouble starting my U280

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trouble starting my U280

May 16, 2017, 08:34:12 am

I have a 89 U280 with Cat motor. Drove it out of storage 3 weeks ago with no issue and parked it with shore power attached since.

Last weekend I go to start and move it and nothing at the key. All house 110 and 12 v functions fine. Arced a good spark from the engine battery- cleaned the cable connections while there-have spark to starter. No headlights or any dash functions. Checked all the fuses behind the dash-they look ok Using the boost does nothing. I thought if I had battery power the headlights should work with or without the key?

It acts like there's some kind of safety shut out or my ignition switch may be bad. Didn't have multimeter with me but will go back again this weekend.

Any ideas?

Re: trouble starting my U280

Reply #1 – May 16, 2017, 08:41:04 am

Have not specifically worked on a 1989 model, but "no dash functions with key on" sounds like the IGNITION SOLENOID. Probably under driver's side of dash. Two large lugs-- one hot all the time from chassis battery, the other large lug hot with the ignition on.

Start by giving it a very light, sharp rap. May free it up temporarily.

There are some much more bomb-proof replacements.

Re: trouble starting my U280

Reply #2 – May 16, 2017, 08:47:50 am

Thanks Brett- will confirm with the multimeter next weekend.

Re: trouble starting my U280

Reply #3 – May 16, 2017, 09:12:14 am

Check and double check that your transmission selector is in neutral. Engine won't start if it isn't in neutral.

Re: trouble starting my U280

Reply #4 – May 16, 2017, 09:27:08 am

Sounds like boost switch solenoid it's not engaging. Engine battery does not get charged try clicking boost switch rapidly back and forth five or six times see if you don't have power

Re: trouble starting my U280

Reply #5 – May 16, 2017, 09:31:27 am

Brett is right. Just take a jumper wire from one big lug to the other and if your dash gauges come to life, replace the solenoid.

Re: trouble starting my U280

Reply #6 – May 16, 2017, 10:06:52 am

There is also an 80 amp self resetting circuit breaker located in the electric bay above the batteries (based on location in 90' U280). When it fails, and they do, it will give the exact symptoms you are describing. I had the problem on my previous coach, 90' U280 with Cat engine. Replaced the circuit breaker and all worked great again. The circuit breaker is a round, black klixon breaker

Re: trouble starting my U280

Reply #7 – May 19, 2017, 12:37:36 pm

tried jumping across big nuts on left and right side with no luck. Will look at Kemahjohn's circuit breaker next

Don't have multimeter with me yet

Re: trouble starting my U280

Reply #8 – May 19, 2017, 01:20:59 pm

You could take a battery jumper cable and connect to the battery negative post to a good chassis ground to confirm that you do have a good battery to chassie ground connection.

Re: trouble starting my U280

Reply #9 – May 19, 2017, 01:52:19 pm

Quote from: Kemahjohn – May 16, 2017, 10:06:52 am

There is also an 80 amp self resetting circuit breaker... The circuit breaker is a round, black Klixon breaker...

Photo below shows the circuit breaker to which Kemahjohn refers. On my '93 it is located on the 12 volt panel in the main storage bay, under a white fiberglass cover. It is the left one of the three at top of panel. It is a automatic reset thermal breaker.

The part number on my breaker is CDLA-90 9228. It is now apparently superseded by the SDLA-90.

Klixon | Klixon S Series (SDLA, SDLM, and SLA) Thermal Circuit Breakers by...

Re: trouble starting my U280

Reply #10 – May 19, 2017, 02:16:44 pm

If you had power to the starter did you try shorting across the starter solenoid ?

wantabe

Re: trouble starting my U280

Reply #11 – May 19, 2017, 03:25:45 pm

John Duhd- battery is good- see original post

Chuck- thanks for the picture!

Wantabe- I did not try that. Will though.

Re: trouble starting my U280

Reply #12 – June 04, 2017, 06:35:00 pm

Ok, going from Chuck's picture I have 2 relays above the battery CDLA 80's and there is juice to both sides of each one with my test light. There is also a big solenoid there and it has juice to both sides. A series of 8 wires next to these and all these are hot.

Starter. not able to turn over but get a lot of sparks at the solenoid on top of starter, so have juice there.

nothing at key. there is a big solenoid behind dash with two big lugs and a small one that Brett referred to in one of the first replies. No juice to anything at that solenoid.

Frustrating but thing the solenoids at battery end seem ok. Zero at front end, no headlights, or any dash key functions. All motorhome functions are fine.

Open to continued suggestions??

Re: trouble starting my U280

Reply #13 – June 04, 2017, 07:22:59 pm

OK - you drove the coach from storage and it ran normally. You parked it 3 weeks hooked up to shore power, and now it won't start.

You have verified that your start batteries are charged, and you have 12V power at the CDLA-80 circuit breakers, but you don't have 12V power at either of the big lugs on the ignition solenoid (the one behind the dash).

This is very strange. On my '93 U280 wiring diagram, there is a cable (430 4RD) running from the CDLA-90 circuit breaker directly to the ignition solenoid. There is no other circuit breaker in that cable. I assume your coach is probably wired in the same manner. If you have battery power at the CDLA-80 then you should also have power at the ignition solenoid.

If you don't have power at the ignition solenoid, the only logical reason would be a broken/shorted/faulty (430 4RD) cable coming from the CDLA-80. I would inspect both ends of the cable carefully, especially where the big ring terminals are attached. It seems pretty unlikely to me that the cable would fall apart all by itself when the coach is just sitting parked, but stranger things have happened.

I can't come up with any other idea at the moment...

Re: trouble starting my U280

Reply #14 – June 04, 2017, 07:48:09 pm

Armchair brain-storming here...

What if you could get good 12V power to the ignition solenoid (the one behind the dash) from another source? Perhaps pull your car up to the front of the coach, and run jumper cables from the car battery, through the driver window, and hook positive (+) to the ignition solenoid, and negative (-) to a ground connection somewhere under the dash. Then try the starter. If it works, this would imply that the big cable from your CDLA-80 to the ignition solenoid is bad.

There won't be any big power draw on the jumper cables. When you turn the ignition switch, you are just energizing the AUX START solenoid at the rear of the coach. It, in turn, energizes the engine starter solenoid, which draws the actual starting juice direct from the start batteries.

Anyway, you do what you feel comfortable with...but I think that's what I would try.

Re: trouble starting my U280

Reply #15 – June 04, 2017, 11:09:36 pm

Chuck,

Thanks for the suggestions- may try the jumper cable idea.
Only thought I could think of is I've had rodent problems on and off over the years so I wondered if something could be shorted. The cable ends all look nice.

There's a good local truck shop I will probably try if I don't have success with the jumper cables. Probably be ahead paying them to come out with their tools and diagnostic stuff. I was hoping for an easy target like the relays.....

I appreciate the help.

Left picture is the set of 8 wires, 2 relays and solenoid- all hot
middle pic is the fuse banks behind dash. left side is all dash function- no power- right bank is camper functions- all hot. last picture is the solenoid that should be hot behind the dash (if you can see it) kinda wondering about putting a jumper cable in that mess....

Re: trouble starting my U280

Reply #16 – June 04, 2017, 11:15:17 pm

WC, when you take pictures please use a good large format on camera as these you show are really useless, even with expanding them. Go up to 800 or so then we can see better what you are trying to show.
JohnH

Re: trouble starting my U280

Reply #17 – June 05, 2017, 08:27:27 am

ok, so I took Chuck's idea and used an extra auto battery and jumped to red wire side of the solenoid behind the dash and bingo, dash/key functions worked.

So problem is isolated to the wire I guess, not sure how to trace it as it must go thru the walls/floor.

John, picture issue duly noted- Thanks for the feedback.

Re: trouble starting my U280

Reply #18 – June 05, 2017, 08:55:33 am

Dan,

This is one of those "good news - bad news" circumstances. Knowing what the problem is, is the good news...

If your coach is like most, the cable that runs from the CDLA-80 to the ignition solenoid will run through the central utility channel along with all the other electrical, pneumatic, water and A/C lines. It is a very crowded environment. On our coach, I can access this channel by dropping the overhead sheet metal covers in each cargo bay. Doing this will expose all the lines, except in the places where they go through vertical bulkheads and through the wet bay.

It won't be fun, but if you're up to it, that is what you need to do. Expose as much of the cable as you can, and look for problems. I don't know how else to approach it. Doing this trouble shooting yourself will be a LOT cheaper than paying someone, but also a lot of work. Up to you...

Sorry about your troubles, but we will all go through something similar eventually. Part of the "joy" of owning a complex machine.

Re: trouble starting my U280

Reply #19 – June 05, 2017, 01:07:42 pm

Have you checked behind the white panel in the bay I thought there is a circuit breaker there on the wire from the batteries to the dash

Re: trouble starting my U280

Reply #20 – June 05, 2017, 01:15:06 pm

Quote from: red tractor – June 05, 2017, 01:07:42 pm

Have you checked behind the white panel in the bay I thought there is a circuit breaker there on the wire from the batteries to the dash

Ron, this has already been covered earlier in this thread. The circuit breaker has power on both sides.

Re: trouble starting my U280

Reply #21 – June 05, 2017, 02:01:22 pm

ok, hopefully this picture is easier to see

the right breaker is hooked into the power converter. the left one goes over to the series of 8 wires at left- these are relays? The lower left of these 8 goes up into set of wires enclosed in plastic and up thru the tray in the center of the bays- I'm assuming this is the one that goes to the solenoid behind the dash? All these breakers and the 8 wires are all showing hot. not sure what the big solenoid to the far right is? the square thing at the bottom left of the picture has both red wires hot

took the white panel off between the bays and behind the air tank, doesn't show another breaker or relay just wires going up into the tray.

Shouldn't I be able to run a new hot wire temporarily from one of these hot terminals up to the solenoid in dash? Just to get the coach mobile. don't want to ruin anything else though...

Re: trouble starting my U280

Reply #22 – June 05, 2017, 03:39:23 pm

Quote from: WC7610 – June 05, 2017, 02:01:22 pm

Shouldn't I be able to run a new hot wire temporarily from one of these hot terminals up to the solenoid in dash? Just to get the coach mobile. don't want to ruin anything else though...

Dan,

Do you have a wiring diagram for your coach? From your comments, I'm guessing you do not. It would be very helpful if you could procure one. Perhaps the factory could provide one, if you gave them a call. Foretravel put ID numbers on most of the electrical wires and cables. Using a schematic, these numbers can help to easily identify circuits. Trouble shooting the electrical system without a diagram is...hard.

The simple answer to your question is "Yes". You could run a big long jumper wire from any good 12V source up to the ignition solenoid. This would be a temporary measure. Actually pulling a new wire through the original factory routing path might be more difficult, but not impossible.

Your coach is obviously wired a little different from my '93 model. You have some of the same items that I have, but located in different places. I can guess at what you have, but without a wiring diagram, it is only a guess.

The 4 devices stacked in a column at the left of your photo are circuit breakers - probably self-resetting type. You have 4 of those circuit breakers - I have 7. Without a wiring diagram, hard to say what circuits those 4 breakers protect.

Your coach has 2 of the big round CDLA-80 circuit breakers. My coach has 3 CDLA-90 breakers. On mine, the right CDLA-90 breaker fed the original factory installed "power converter" and 3 of the stacked circuit breakers. The center breaker feeds 4 of the stack of (7) circuit breakers and the 12V fuse panel at the foot of the bed. The left-hand breaker feeds the ignition solenoid. Since you only have two CDLA-80 breakers, I'm not sure where the original wire going to your ignition solenoid was connected. Once again, a wiring diagram would answer that question.

The silver object on the right side of the photo is a solenoid. It is basically the same thing as the ignition solenoid behind your dash. My coach has 3 of those solenoids: the Ignition solenoid, the Aux Start solenoid, and the Boost solenoid. The one in your photo could be either the Aux Start solenoid, or the Boost solenoid. Easy to ascertain - have someone turn the ignition key on and off while you listen to the silver solenoid. If it makes a clicking noise, then it's the Aux Start solenoid. If no noise, then have the person turn the "Boost" switch on and off. Again, listen for a click at the solenoid. If it clicks, then it's the Boost solenoid.

The object in the right bottom corner of your photo is a fuse. On my coach it is a 175A fuse, and it supplied the original factory installed inverter.

The white square object looks like a relay. It might be the water pump relay, but that's only a guess.

Sorry, but that's about all the help I can give you "long distance". Good Luck!

Re: trouble starting my U280

Reply #23 – June 05, 2017, 05:59:02 pm

Just read your post about your starting problem. I don't have the correct schematic but here is an easy way to figure out what is wrong.

Go to Home Depot or Amazon and get a "tone generator wire tracer" Amazon.com: tone generator wire tracer An inexpensive one will work fine.

Once you have it, connect the two clip leads to the ignition solenoid and the other lead to ground. Turn it on and then use the probe to trace where the wire goes. A couple of other members used it to find where the extra wires from the engine compartment come out up front by the driver. It's super easy to use. The probe will make an audible "tone" when within about 3 inches of the wire.

This WILL find the other end of the hot side of the solenoid.

Pierce

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Re: trouble starting my U280

Reply #24 – June 06, 2017, 06:33:41 pm

A word of caution before you go ripping power cables out--- when the 80 amp breaker fails, it usually is a function of the very small adjustment screw breaking off. What that means is that you may have voltage on the load side of the breaker as long as no load is on, however, when you attempt to apply load, such as turning the key, the load side voltage will drop to near zero. Check that breaker carefully before you start pulling cables, it might save you a great deal of grief! Been there, done that, got the T shirt.

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