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Topic: INVERTERS (Read 1004 times) previous topic - next topic

INVERTERS

I'm preparing to upgrade my inverter system and house electrical system to modern standards and to except 1200 watts of solar panels.
I also plan to install 4 or 6,  L-16 6V batteries.  A remote possibility of Lithium.

Electronics is certainly not my strong area. I approach this project with extreme caution and would probably have it done if I knew of a GOOD installer in the Chicago area.

My current system still uses a trusty Freedom 2500 inverter.
 I'm looking at the Magnum MS 2812 maybe the hybrid version , and the Victron Multi 3000.

I would like the capability to use the generator auto start.
A unit that would easily and effectively tie into my solar panels.
Have a low idle load when not used.
GOOD warranty.
An easy installation!

If any of you have researched this or these inverters or better yet, use and have installed it yourself, I would love to read your reviews and tips.
1995 U320C SE 40'
Jeep 4x4 Commander - Limited - Hemi
"The Pack"  Yogi and Diesel our Airedales -  Charlie our Boxer/Akita mix. Gone but NEVER forgotten Jake our yellow Lab.
NRA Law Enforcement Firearms instructor - Handgun/shotgun
Regional Firearms instructor for national Armored Transp. Co.

Re: INVERTERS

Reply #1 –
We went with the MS 2812 after going in with the intention of buying the hybrid model.  As it was explained to us, you pay premium money for a Magnum because they are well-built and could easily last 15 years.  If you didn't necessarily need the reliability, you could go much cheaper for one with a better continuous watt rating.  The MS 2812 has a great reputation for being bullet proof, so if you didn't need the Hybrid feature (which you almost certainly don't, because the Foretravel generators are all oversized anyway - and the hybrid feature is never really used), why not stick with the one with the great track record (and save a few hundred bucks)?

We installed ours earlier this year, along with 1140W solar and six L-16 batteries.  If we could do it again, I would have gone with six 2V L16s in a single string instead of six 6V L16's in a 3x2 parallel series, because it would have decreased our ideal absorb charge stage duration significantly.

We also wired our A/C through the MS2812 to run off battery power.  Done that 7-8 times with no problems yet.

Details on solar/MS2812 here:
Solar Installation Progress - John Palmer in Mayo, FL (Palmer Energy Systems)

Details on A/C through MS 2812 here:
Micro-air Easy Start Installation - Wiring Diagrams for Duo-Therm and Exmple A/C

As far as the installation goes:
I was the tool fetcher / observer on the inverter install - I don't think I could have done it solo the first time through, but after seeing someone else do it, I'm pretty sure I could duplicate it.  Maybe you are more electrically-inclined:  For comparison's sake: I could wire a car stereo, add a new outlet to the 12V, or put in a backup camera... but that's my general skill-cap.

The MS 2812 installation literature is thorough, and there are essentially just sets of wires that you need to pull from the old inverter and put into the new inverter without much modification:  a set from the batteries, a set that functions as a 'pass through' for the generator/shore power, and a set that sends power to the coach.  We took the opportunity to cut out about 5 feet of unnecessary wire to reduce power loss, and recrimp some old connections that were looking a little tired. There are also battery sensor wires, wires for your remote display, etc. - but the important stuff is pretty well-labeled.

The Freedom 2500 is smaller than the MS 2812.  We had to modify the metal frame the old inverter sat in.  I was convinced that if we removed the shell from the new MS 2812 inverter, we could have just barely slipped it in there.... but that idea got shot down by the powers that be.
James
w/ DW Erin, sons Gideon and Tobias, cats Oscar & Oliver
Fulltime 1999 U270 34' #5508

Re: INVERTERS

Reply #2 –
A lot of these decisions depend on how one uses their coach, how/where you camp, etc.  Start keeping track of how many AH of battery power you use in a 24 hour period.  This will help you build a system that works for your real world usage instead of everyone else's usage.

We went with the Magnum MS2812 also, but no auto gen start.  I prefer to keep manual control over the generator for a number of reasons.  The Magnum has worked very well for us.  It can take time to read through all the settings and figure out, but I find it to be more user friendly than the Xantrex system.

Also, the Magnum is pretty much a direct plug in replacement with the wiring/breakers on the older coaches.

We are not heavy AC power users when we dry camp.  We don't run coffee makers, etc. off the inverter, and our setup reflects this.  We often camp in areas with generator hours.  If we need to run something that requires a heavy AC load then we plan accordingly and do so at times generators are allowed to be run.  So for us no need to invest in a hybrid system.  Then we leave solar panels out the rest of the day.

For solar, I plan on 1 watt of solar for every AH in the battery bank.  In reality I find we need less solar than that.  So for three 8D8G (gel) batteries that's 675 amp hours total, so I would plan on a maximum of 675 watts of solar panels.  Extended dry camping has shown that planning this way works for us.  As a result we've been able to build fully functional dry camping setups using less expensive charge controllers that tie directly to the batteries, and fewer solar panels that much I what I see posted on forums.

Chris

Re: INVERTERS

Reply #3 –
Six flooded cell 2v l16 in a string would be difficult to install in our coach.

The 1100 amp hours would be nice.  Auto filling with water would help the 18 cells involved.

Charge of 1/5 C would require a different alternator and a bigger charger than the 2812 has if you want to charge that large of a bank as quickly as possible.

My previous battery experience would cause me to not be too interested in lead/acid anything that requires equalization.

Foretravel buried the 8g8d's gels in inaccessible areas because other then replacement every dozen years or so they can disappear.

Which suits me fine.

With some medium  mods I think I can get 4 8g8d's in our battery area, 

More solar would help my install as we have only 270 watts.

My gurus  base install for the residential refer new hungry coaches is four MK gels and 500 watts of solar. Or do not call him.
"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: INVERTERS

Reply #4 –
Quote from: Caflashbob –
My gurus  base install for the residential refer new hungry coaches is four MK gels and 500 watts of solar. Or do not call him.


Guess he doesn't get a lot of calls.  Many of us run (or ran) residential without all the hoopla he seems to think is necessary.  We had 3 AGMs and no solar and no problem running down the road with the fridge on inverter.
Learn every day, but especially from the experiences of others. It's cheaper!  - John C. Bogle

2000 U320 36' non-slide / WildEBeest Rescue
2003 U320

Re: INVERTERS

Reply #5 –
Most of his work fior the last 17 years are 45's. Late model  High line coaches or busses.

Birds, prevosts, country coaches, Essex. Travel supreme,

The install reference was for the majority who constantly ask why there auto start comes on before dawn folks.

Every light on.  Three tvs on. Make dinner on inverter.

Most owners have little knowledge about the details and little interest.

Had a 2003 38' u320 owner pull up in front of our coach at big bear and introduce themselves.

In the conversation he mentioned his electric system knowledge was to look at the "fuel gauge" to see the percentage of charge available.

Plugged in normally.  Auto start always on. Unless gen hours area which they rarely were in
"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: INVERTERS

Reply #6 –
Since return from vacation, not plugged in 20cu.ft. residential refrigerator 20 hours down to 12.3 volts. 3 lifeline agms. When on vacation and watching satellite tv, lights running, Aqua-hot running go to bed with tv on timer for 60 min. 10 hrs. later 12.3 volts.
1999 40 ft. U-320 wtfe build 5563 Chuck & Lynda's "Rollin' Inn"  2030 watts solar
prev. mh's 71 GMC 5 yrs. 73 Pace Setter 1 yr. 78 Vogue 5 yrs 81 FTX 40ft all electric 18 yrs. 1996 Monaco Signature 3 yrs.
2014 Grand Cherokee Overland
Dream as if you will live forever. Live as if you will die today.  James Dean

Re: INVERTERS

Reply #7 –
3 oreilly AGMS, not plugged in  - overnight running AH and refrigerator - auto start does not start Generator - I will when I get up to do coffee and "stuff" - shut down and pull away letting alternator do its thing -

will go solar within 2017 - either enough to keep batteries topped up in storage or as much as I can fit on roof and add 4th 8d. Going to talk to AM solar, and slab city- probably a DIY with my master electrician buddy
Tim Fiedler    2025 LTV Unity MBL on Order
2000 Chevy Tracker 2 Door Convertible 4WD Now lifted 4.5"
1985 Citroen 2CV6 Charleston
Murphy Rebel on wheels with 175HP Titan
Cessna P337
1980 48' Westport MY (!/4 Share)

Re: INVERTERS

Reply #8 –
Highly recommend the xantrex linkpro gauge.

Guru buddy finally talked me into this with the 2812.

Has all the variables. Volts, amp hours, percent of charge and input and output amp rates.

Yes I know the Rc-50 shows some or all of this but I rarely quote just volts.  My monitoring is usually to scroll through the menus but normally just leave the percentage showing and the indicator always has a bar graph across the top.

In use the amp hours in and out are my go to gauge.

Pushing both arrows on the face plate resets it back to 100% if off
"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: INVERTERS

Reply #9 –
If you are adding large amount of solar, you may want to consider an all Victron system.  Multipass 3000, solar controller, battery monitor and color panel. The components share data resulting in a very good picture of the entire system.  You can also monitor the health with your phone. This is my third solar array and first using Victron I am a big fan of their MPPT solar controller series.  I have 2.5w to 1A useable ratio for house.  Just finished another trip to Outer Banks  boondocking and running the power hog uline etc with no gen set usage.  800 house and 100 chassis.
George and Steph
1997 U270 36 Build 5081 "Honu"
1180w Solar 400A lithium all Victron house system
Motorcade 17670, SKP 128300, FMCA F459019
73 VW Camper, 79 VW Camper, 2363 Sunline, and an Arctic Fox 25P

Re: INVERTERS

Reply #10 –
I to am going to replace the FREEDOM 25 with the Magnum 2812. Do I really need the auto gen option from Magnum when I have the auto start feature on my dash (on/off/auto) for the generator?
Does the installed feature on my '98 take care of that?

Also how much of an alteration is necessary to make it fit in the existing cabinet?  Can anyone offer up some pics to view?

Peter
Peter    Alberta Canada
'98 U320 40'  Build 5359 M11 450 HP, Aqua hot, Blu Ox

Re: INVERTERS

Reply #11 –
I am not going to buy the auto start when I upgrade. I can already start from the dash or bedroom. Good enough
1996 U295-36, Cummins 300hp, 8.3. Build number 4864. Vin number 1F97D536XTNO54271. Purchased October 31, 2019.

Re: INVERTERS

Reply #12 –
Quote from: dicksop –
I to am going to replace the FREEDOM 25 with the Magnum 2812. Do I really need the auto gen option from Magnum when I have the auto start feature on my dash (on/off/auto) for the generator?
Does the installed feature on my '98 take care of that?

Also how much of an alteration is necessary to make it fit in the existing cabinet?  Can anyone offer up some pics to view?

Peter
If it's like my '99 the factory, the auto start switched on will start my generator at 12.2 volts.
1999 40 ft. U-320 wtfe build 5563 Chuck & Lynda's "Rollin' Inn"  2030 watts solar
prev. mh's 71 GMC 5 yrs. 73 Pace Setter 1 yr. 78 Vogue 5 yrs 81 FTX 40ft all electric 18 yrs. 1996 Monaco Signature 3 yrs.
2014 Grand Cherokee Overland
Dream as if you will live forever. Live as if you will die today.  James Dean

Re: INVERTERS

Reply #13 –
George is about right, 2.5 watts of solar per ah of battery capacity will pretty reliably get you recharged on about 60% of the days during the year. 

Do an energy audit to determine how much you use during a day, warm sunny summer day, dreary cold mid winter day.  With a residential refrig it is going to be 3,000 watts per day, more in the winter, not much less in the summer.  With an LP refrig maybe 1800 - 2000 watts per day.  These are fough guesses and every coach and user will be different.

You can get by with fewer AH of LiFePO4 batteries because you can use much more of their capacity and they weigh about 1/3 (per amp hr) what an AGM or GEL battery weighs.

All Victron equipment comes with a 5 yr warranty, much more than anyone else.  Like many I like the integration of components they offer.

Get advice from members who have actually done the work, especially those who have done it themselves.  Third party opinions are just that.

Roger Engdahl and Susan Green
2001 U320 3610 #5879 (Home2) - 2014 Jeep Cherokee or 2018 F150
Hastings, MN

Re: INVERTERS

Reply #14 –
I replaced my Freedom with a 2812 and I just did a small modification to the existing hanger. The remote fit right where the old
Freedom was and the telephone type wire worked and the other wires that the freedom use, I just left there. The auto gen option
I haven't used yet as the auto gen start that came with the coach works so I haven't bother.
Peter and Frieda Morin
1999 36ft. U320 Foretravel
Build # 5436
1998 Suzuki Sidekick Sport

Re: INVERTERS

Reply #15 –
Always buy the advance Magnum panel ME-ARC. It can handle all you will add to the system in the future. Some who buy the less expensive ME-RC find they cannot later add amp-hour or remote gen start. Amp-hr readout can be very helpful and is an easy add to the system.

Re: INVERTERS

Reply #16 –
Most if not all new Top of the line coaches have a integrated dual setback HVAC system with solar control and auto gen start.

With roof top a/c board changes and a 10 button CCC most of the Unicoaches can have the same thing 20 years later

We transitioned from New Mexico to south Texas this trip.  Hot to cold.  Dry camp to hookups.

The idea that all the changes needed could be fully automated is of interest to some.

Would be fun to never need to do anything and drive around. 

Programming gen hours per location changes would be manual. 

If you have  the time to read the magnum manuals you might be interested at what the system they build is capable of. 

The magnum me-ags-n manual is the one I would recommend to start with then the me-arc advanced panel.

Magnum is a made in USA product for those that  such things matter. 

you can call the factories staff for info and help. I have.  Quite interesting.

I think I would like to travel like the new Foretravelers do as far as automation and I Definitely can.

Whether anyone has done this here on this forum or not is not the point.  Read the manuals and you will see it can be done.  No problem.

I would love to buy a coach that is as integrated as the new coaches for a fraction of the money. 

I would pay more to get a turn key automated coach as would  some here I think.

Just fun for some to upgrade things.  I did the driveline stuff first.  Took many years as i was in no hurry 

Now the coaches systems. 

If I ran a Foretravel store in the future I might mod all the nice trades to the newer coaches automated setups.

Show the new coach.  Then the used with most of the same systems.  I did this before many times

Oldest lesson in the rv sales biz is "larceny makes deals" 

If a buyer can buy a coach with better features and furnishing for less money they will.



 








"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: INVERTERS

Reply #17 –
Bob when I bought my coach it came with solar and all the Magnum controllers but not installed. I am still learning about setting
it up and as you said the factory is very helpful and as the factory is close to me I will visit it when the border is reopened.
Peter and Frieda Morin
1999 36ft. U320 Foretravel
Build # 5436
1998 Suzuki Sidekick Sport