Skip to main content ↑ ↓
Topic: Preventative Maintenance Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission (Read 961 times) previous topic - next topic - Topic derived from Re: Replacing an Alli...

Preventative Maintenance Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

In another thread about a transmission cooler failing, Mark asked this question:

Quote from: Mark Duckworth –
Is there preventative maintenance that we can do to reduce this risk?

My response may not be one many folks agree with but... 

Change the coolant and oils regularly as recommended in the service manual.  A lot of these vehicles are nearing "antique" designation.  The parts have a finite life span and need to be replaced rather than patched to save money and limp along for another year or two.

Based upon posts it seems that at 15-20 years of use these parts are starting to fail.  If the radiator has gotten to the point where it is leaking, then chances are the transmission cooler's insides aren't in great shape either.  Skip the Bar's Leak (I know that's not a popular recommendation), order the parts direct from the manufacturer, and plan a time to replace the tranny cooler and radiator before they fail.

It's also a good time to test the Charge Air Cooler and replace that if needed, and not a bad time to consider replacing the gear motors for the radiator fans since everything is in the same area and bolted together.

If fuel lines have not been replaced it is much easier to replace engine fuel lines with all the above items removed.

Yes it can end up being a lot of coach bucks, but the labor costs will increase if you do these piece meal as each items fails rather than being proactive and doing them all at once.  Once they are done the systems are starting from the same baseline in terms of time and wear.

Chris

Re: Preventative Maintenance Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #1 –
Transmissions replacement seems to be in the $11k to $15k range.  Is that right?

What would a rough budgetary number be to proactively replace the radiator, transmission cooler hoses, EDIT: and gear motors for the radiator fans?

Mark Duckworth
2003 U320 4220
Build 6199, Motorcade 17971

Re: Preventative Maintenance Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #2 –
It would be nice for one of the "preferred" venders to come up with a package price to do the entire job.
1995 U320C SE 40'
Jeep 4x4 Commander - Limited - Hemi
"The Pack"  Yogi and Diesel our Airedales -  Charlie our Boxer/Akita mix. Gone but NEVER forgotten Jake our yellow Lab.
NRA Law Enforcement Firearms instructor - Handgun/shotgun
Regional Firearms instructor for national Armored Transp. Co.

Re: Preventative Maintenance Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #3 –
Quote from: Mark Duckworth –
Transmissions replacement seems to be in the $11k to $15k range.  Is that right?

What would a rough budgetary number be to proactively replace the radiator, transmission cooler hoses, EDIT: and gear motors for the radiator fans?

The hydraulic fan motors only need seals when they start leaking. No reason to spend big money on something that gives plenty of notice when there is a problem. It would be nice to see one of the trans. coolers that have failed cut open to see if electrolysis was the cause and coolant maintenance would have prevented it.
1999 40 ft. U-320 wtfe build 5563 Chuck & Lynda's "Rollin' Inn"  2030 watts solar
prev. mh's 71 GMC 5 yrs. 73 Pace Setter 1 yr. 78 Vogue 5 yrs 81 FTX 40ft all electric 18 yrs. 1996 Monaco Signature 3 yrs.
2014 Grand Cherokee Overland
Dream as if you will live forever. Live as if you will die today.  James Dean

Re: Preventative Maintenance Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #4 –
2017 prices:

Radiator direct from Atlas (model B2358RMCP)  = ~$2,100
Charge Air Cooler from Atlas = ~$1,600

Buy the radiator and the CAC at the same time as a pack and the price is a little lower.

Transmission Cooler from Rocore (model 3-1279B) = ~ $1,400 - $1,800 (range because may offer discounts for vets, active military, etc)

Master gear pump with thermostatic valve assembly (from Foretravel) = ~$3,353.00
The master gear pump is from Dynamatics in England.  They add a thermostatic valve to the back end of a Turolla gear pump/motor.  Dynamatics raises the price on suppliers that buy items one at a time, so Foretravel's price on these is not bad.

Slave gear pump (hydraulic fan motor) model=121.21.008.00 = ~$438.00

In terms of the gear pumps and seals...  You might save money on the slave pump if you redo the seals yourself, but not everyone likes to do that type of work.  The price of a new slave motor is low enough that it's almost a wash to buy a new one versus paying a shop to redo the seals.  Plus if there is any wear on the gears due to excessive leakage new seals won't address that.

The master gear motor has a thermostatic valve added onto the back end.  This has an additional set of seals.  To do a full seal replacement you would need to order seals from Dynamatics to make sure all the seals are addressed.

Chris

Re: Preventative Maintenance Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #5 –
Had my CAC repaired at welds and painted for $800,just finished 10K Alaska trip no trouble,agree with above,the hyd systems
will show some small leaks first.If you really want to replace all these wear items on the coach,add them all up you may be
better off buying a newer coach.
96 U270 BUILD 4810
85 380SL
Drummonds TN.

Re: Preventative Maintenance Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #6 –
Quote from: Numbers –
2017 prices:


Slave gear pump (hydraulic fan motor) model Froxlor Server Management Panel = ~438.00
Master gear pump with thermostatic valve assembly (from Foretravel) = ~$3,353.00
The master gear pump is from England which adds a thermostatic valve to the back end of a Turolla gear pump/motor.  Dynamatics, the company that makes it, raises the price on suppliers that buy items one at a time, so Foretravel's price on these is not bad.

Slave gear pump (hydraulic fan motor) model=121.21.008.00 = ~$438.00


Chris
Something wrong on slave gear pump, the link is for software. When I had mine off to reseal the motors looked the same. If they are the same pump just re-use the valve on the back. If you can get a gear motor for $438.00
 I resealed both motors for around $300.00
1999 40 ft. U-320 wtfe build 5563 Chuck & Lynda's "Rollin' Inn"  2030 watts solar
prev. mh's 71 GMC 5 yrs. 73 Pace Setter 1 yr. 78 Vogue 5 yrs 81 FTX 40ft all electric 18 yrs. 1996 Monaco Signature 3 yrs.
2014 Grand Cherokee Overland
Dream as if you will live forever. Live as if you will die today.  James Dean

Re: Preventative Maintenance Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #7 –
Quote from: John44 –
Had my CAC repaired at welds and painted for $800,just finished 10K Alaska trip no trouble,agree with above,the hyd systems
will show some small leaks first.If you really want to replace all these wear items on the coach,add them all up you may be
better off buying a newer coach.


The ability to get repairs like that done depend on where ones lives.  Where we live no local shops can rebuild a CAC.  They send them out.  So is just about as expensive as a new one.

You still can't touch a newer diesel pusher of any quality for the price of these repairs.  And newer units (2009 and later) have to deal with DEF systems, which introduces and entire new set of coach problems.

Chris

Re: Preventative Maintenance Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #8 –
I have read of many Foretravel owners spending $20,000 on  paint jobs, remodeling projects, thousands for blinds etc. All money that they will never see again. $5000 or so to take my coach another 15 years does not sound bad, especially if a new $12000+ Allison replacement could be avoided.
My biggest worry right now is my radiator at 20+ years of age. I know better than to think its still ok. In the back of my mind I know it needs to be rebuilt along with everything around it.
1995 U320C SE 40'
Jeep 4x4 Commander - Limited - Hemi
"The Pack"  Yogi and Diesel our Airedales -  Charlie our Boxer/Akita mix. Gone but NEVER forgotten Jake our yellow Lab.
NRA Law Enforcement Firearms instructor - Handgun/shotgun
Regional Firearms instructor for national Armored Transp. Co.

Re: Preventative Maintenance Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #9 –
Will be heading to Chicago in Oct.,could bring CAC and maybe radiator,live near Atlas.
96 U270 BUILD 4810
85 380SL
Drummonds TN.

Re: Preventative Maintenance Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #10 –
Agree that 10+ coach bucks, while a lot of $,  seems a small price to pay for rebuilding these systems and putting a solid FT back on the road without concern for these systems compared to new rigs selling at multiples of a solid FT with these mods...regardless of no return on the investment other than years of trouble free enjoyment from these components.

If one were to go this route and have all this work done commercially WHERE in the country would it be most reliably done?  Is this a NAC project?

Randy
Randy (N4TDT) and Karen Crete
Sarasota, Florida
SOLD:  2000 U270 34' WTFE Build 5756 "Ole Red"

Re: Preventative Maintenance Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #11 –
Quote from: floridarandy –
Agree that 10+ coach bucks, while a lot of $,  seems a small price to pay for rebuilding these systems and putting a solid FT back on the road without concern for these systems compared to new rigs selling at multiples of a solid FT with these mods...regardless of no return on the investment other than years of trouble free enjoyment from these components.
Randy
Yes, it is a lot of $ and for a lot of retirees who may have purchased their dream coach for between $10K and $20K, it's the worse nightmare possible. As far as a "solid FT" goes, with all the complex systems our coaches have, it's the roll of the dice on every trip. Sure, you can do all the maintenance, read all the posts and while it reduces the odds, you still have a big condo rolling down the road (with a poor foundation design and implementation). The older it is, the more likely items will fail and have to be replaced. Some may be able to just card it with a grumble while to others, it's a game changer. 

Probably the most important factor is the condition of the used coach when you purchase it. It's a given that only a small percentage of RV owners maintain their coaches other than cleaning the windshield. If it's been abused with winter driving over treated roads or just had a tiny leak in the wet bay it WILL cause a lot of grief.  While ours was clean underneath, it didn't have any maintenance records when we bought it and the spouse told us it had not received much care so we crossed our fingers. We have been lucky. Others have not.

That's why our coach cost $370K new but we were able to buy it for 7% of the original price. Perhaps if the coaches had manual transmissions, manual leveling airbags, etc, they would be worth more as they age.

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: Preventative Maintenance Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #12 –
You only hear about the failures on here. No words spoken about all the non failures. Statistics are in favor that your radiator, trans heat exchanger, etc won't fail with proper coolant.

Infant mortality on new parts is also a real concern. Excessive changing can hinder reliability.
1998 U270 34'

Re: Preventative Maintenance Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #13 –
Quote from: krush –
You only hear about the failures on here. No words spoken about all the non failures. Statistics are in favor that your radiator, trans heat exchanger, etc won't fail with proper coolant.

Infant mortality on new parts is also a real concern. Excessive changing can hinder reliability.


I agree.  Proper coolant, oils, and proper change intervals are the important part.

One point that is not brought up is that low miles does not mean a good coach.

A low mile coach probably hasn't had the coolant changed every two years as recommended [see Brett's correction below].  Seals haven't been lubricated on a regular basis through usage.  Periodic usage can be much harder on a vehicle than regular long mileage usage.  Put a low mileage, periodic usage coach into regular service under load, and issues can appear that weren't expected.

When we purchased our coach the radiator was fine.  And we did have a PDI done by someone well known to folks on the forum.  To be sure even more sure about the radiator I it pressure tested by a local shop after I got it home, and it tested fine.  Once we started putting it into service under load eventually a small radiator leak started to appear every time the coach had been driven for about 45 minutes.

I tightened the cap screws around the radiator.  Didn't stop the leak.  I replaced five lower bolts with new ones in an area I thought was the problem.  That's when I got a good idea of the possible condition of the interior of the radiator.

The bolts I had removed were well corroded.  One sheared apart during removal.  On a few of them the bolt threads had been eaten down to the core of the bolt where they had been surrounded by the radiator tank's cork gasket.  Also, it was apparent that someone had used Bar's Leak at least once to keep it all going.

I figured if the bolts on the radiator were like that then the inside tubes of the transmission cooler probably had Bar's Leak running through them, and might also be corroding.

A PDI will not show this type of condition unless you start disassembling parts.

All I'm trying to point out is that these coaches have 800,000 mile rated engines and over the road duty transmissions, etc.  If properly cared for the coaches will last.  If you do these types of repairs you probably won't get your money back if you sell it, but you will keep your coach on the road.  And you won't have to spend $350,000 or more on a new diesel pusher that will be depreciating as you drive it, and be guaranteed to have it's own issues and require trips to the shop.

Chris

Re: Preventative Maintenance Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #14 –
Quote from: Numbers –

I agree.  Proper coolant, oils, and proper change intervals are the important part.

One point that is not brought up is that low miles does not mean a good coach.

A low mile coach probably hasn't had the coolant changed every two years as recommended.  ably had Bar's Leak running through them, and might also be corroding.

Chris

Actually, coolant change interval as well as what testing and adding of chemicals is dependent on what coolant chemistry you have.

If one of the newer ELC/OAT-based coolant, 6 years is recommended change interval.

If one of the "low silicate for diesels with added SCA", SCA, pH and freeze point need to be checked and adjusted annually.  3 years is the recommended change interval, though I have no concern about extended that a little if coolant chemistry tests OK.  BTW if I inspect a coach with regular (usually green) coolant, coolant test strips are part of my kit.
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: Preventative Maintenance Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #15 –
I'm curious how much of this potential issue can be discovered by a comprehensive fluid analysis Blackstone or JG Lubricant, etc?

Did your PDI include such fluid tests Chris?
Randy (N4TDT) and Karen Crete
Sarasota, Florida
SOLD:  2000 U270 34' WTFE Build 5756 "Ole Red"

Re: Preventative Maintenance Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #16 –
Quote from: floridarandy –
I'm curious how much of this potential issue can be discovered by a comprehensive fluid analysis Blackstone or JG Lubricant, etc?

Did your PDI include such fluid tests Chris?

Our PDI did not include fluid tests at the level Brett is talking about, or analysis through Blackstone, etc.

When we decided upon a Foretravel we searched this forum extensively for almost a year.  But actually owning and operating the coach these past 11 months has been a HUGE coach course on an entirely different level.

There are things I won't share publicly in the forum about our purchase process/experience, but I'm happy to share via private message.

Chris

Re: Preventative Maintenance Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #17 –
While I agree, a fluid analysis will reveal an issue slightly before a visual check, not sure it would be soon enough to save the transmission.

Said another way, even a little coolant is easy to see in either engine oil or in transmission fluid, as it transmission fluid in the radiator.  We are talking about even a couple of drops of ATF in the coolant is visible, as it rises to the top of the radiator/tank.
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020