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Topic: Engine Fire Suppression Installation (Read 1362 times) previous topic - next topic

Engine Fire Suppression Installation

Hi friends.  Yesterday Pam and I finished up installation of an automatic fire extinguisher for the engine compartment.  Our coach has an east-west bed floor plan with a large clothes closet that spans most of the rear of the coach.  We decided to mount the tank in the closet.  This saves room in the engine compartment and allowed us to use a pretty large volume foam tank.  We put in a unit that has two heads that open at 286 deg F. 

The first head is above the engine installed with a horizontal alignment to allow it to discharge the foam above the valve cover and below the pipe that goes between the CAC and the air intake manifold.  This head should give general coverage to most of the compartment.

The second head is mounted lower on the passenger side of the engine.  It's alignment is to hopefully allow it to discharge into the radiator area as well as directly on the side of the engine in the area of the fuel filters and fuel pump.

I'm fairly happy with the installation but it's not my best work.  The 2x4 brackets (treated lumber) are a little crude but get the job done and were easy to fabricate.  The hoses are made of teflon and braided stainless steel and very stiff.  The stiffness makes the installation tedious and challenging to position the heads and tank.  The advertisement for the tank said it would ship with a ball valve but it did not.  The heads were attached directly to the tank so the hole between the closet and the engine compartment had to be made large enough to pass through the heads.

What do you think of the head mounting locations?  I intentionally did not mount a head in close proximity to the turbocharger to avoid that high temperature zone.  Although the turbo is probably the most likely source of ignition, it seems to me the passenger side of the engine is the primary source of fuel for a fire.  Does the head on the side of the engine need to be more in the radiator area or is the location a good compromise between the radiator and the passenger side of the engine?
Mark Duckworth
2003 U320 4220
Build 6199, Motorcade 17971

Re: Engine Fire Suppression Installation

Reply #1 –
Nice way to not worry about an engine fire. I booked marked and it might wind up on my to do list. With our coach the tank would have to be mounted externally probably in the un finished storage box behind drivers side rear tires.
1999 40 ft. U-320 wtfe build 5563 Chuck & Lynda's "Rollin' Inn"  2030 watts solar
prev. mh's 71 GMC 5 yrs. 73 Pace Setter 1 yr. 78 Vogue 5 yrs 81 FTX 40ft all electric 18 yrs. 1996 Monaco Signature 3 yrs.
2014 Grand Cherokee Overland
Dream as if you will live forever. Live as if you will die today.  James Dean

Re: Engine Fire Suppression Installation

Reply #2 –
Mark,

Your extinguishers look good but unless you have a heat sensor that will warn you on the dash, the extinguishers will empty with the engine on fire. The wind from the coach's speed really feed any fire. The engine could care less if it's on fire as long as the ECU or fuel lines don't burn. The big coach I posted the video on had a fire from a hydraulic hose failure. Unless the driver is alerted and pulls over, the coach could be easily lost.

Nice to have another extinguisher to take to the back to knock down any residual fire.

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: Engine Fire Suppression Installation

Reply #3 –
Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart –
Mark,

Your extinguishers look good but unless you have a heat sensor that will warn you on the dash, the extinguishers will empty with the engine on fire. The wind from the coach's speed really feed any fire. The engine could care less if it's on fire as long as the ECU or fuel lines don't burn. The big coach I posted the video on had a fire from a hydraulic hose failure. Unless the driver is alerted and pulls over, the coach could be easily lost.

Nice to have another extinguisher to take to the back to knock down any residual fire.

Pierce
Yep, I remember that post and also your saying something to this effect.  I have two 10-lb dry chemical extinguishers on board.

Do you have suggestions for engine heat / smoke / fire alarm systems? 

Edit:  Fireboy - Xintex makes a system marketed to the boating crowd.   It has remote heat sensors that trigger at 170 deg F.  Would that be too sensitive for our engine compartments?
Mark Duckworth
2003 U320 4220
Build 6199, Motorcade 17971

Re: Engine Fire Suppression Installation

Reply #4 –
Pierce, how about a pressure switch on hose connection to fire extinguisher, that closes an audible alarm.  Even better if it uses a relay to 'latch' alarm that will continue after extinguisher pressure ends.

Re: Engine Fire Suppression Installation

Reply #5 –
Mark,
The smoke detector on your link would work.
1999 40 ft. U-320 wtfe build 5563 Chuck & Lynda's "Rollin' Inn"  2030 watts solar
prev. mh's 71 GMC 5 yrs. 73 Pace Setter 1 yr. 78 Vogue 5 yrs 81 FTX 40ft all electric 18 yrs. 1996 Monaco Signature 3 yrs.
2014 Grand Cherokee Overland
Dream as if you will live forever. Live as if you will die today.  James Dean

Re: Engine Fire Suppression Installation

Reply #6 –
Curious what the trigger temp for the extinguisher heads.  I don't see an on/off valve.  How did you pressurize system after installation? 
Steve DeLange
2005 U320T 40'
Pearland, Texas

Re: Engine Fire Suppression Installation

Reply #7 –
Yes, I can see your concern about the 170 degrees being too low. The closed engine compartment on a hot day after climbing a grade and then shutting down might exceed 170 but I'm only guessing.

They do make sensors for higher temps.

Yes, an alarm triggered by the extinguisher using a pressure switch could work.

Best is to visit or call a fire extinguisher company. They are in all cities as businesses have to recharge their extinguishers on a regular basis. They will be able to tell you exactly your best options.

Fire, especially on the road is extremely dangerous and with the engine at the back, it may go undiscovered until it's too late to do anything but stop and get out of the coach. An initial warning of abnormal temperatures or smoke gives the operator time to pick a spot to pull off and stop. If the reason for the alarm is a fire, the stationary vehicle is much easier for the fire extinguishers to put the blaze completely out and much less hazardous for the occupants. The high fire loading of the petroleum based construction makes immediate action imperative.

An interesting quote on residential or business sprinkler heads: "Sprinkler heads are individually activated by fire. Residential fires are usually
controlled with one sprinkler head, and 90 percent of all fires are controlled
with six or fewer heads. A study conducted in Australia and New Zealand
covering 82 years of automatic sprinkler use found that 82 percent of the fires
that occurred were controlled by two or fewer sprinklers. "

The chance of a sprinkler head failure is one in sixteen million.

Pierce


Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: Engine Fire Suppression Installation

Reply #8 –
Quote from: sedelange –
Curious what the trigger temp for the extinguisher heads.  I don't see an on/off valve.  How did you pressurize system after installation? 
Hey Steve.  The trigger temp is 286 F.  The advertisement said that the unit would ship with a ball valve but it didn't.  It shipped with the heads already attached and pressurized.  That's made the installation more difficult.
Mark Duckworth
2003 U320 4220
Build 6199, Motorcade 17971

Re: Engine Fire Suppression Installation

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart –
Fire, especially on the road is extremely dangerous and with the engine at the back, it may go undiscovered until it's too late to do anything but stop and get out of the coach. An initial warning of abnormal temperatures or smoke gives the operator time to pick a spot to pull off and stop. If the reason for the alarm is a fire, the stationary vehicle is much easier for the fire extinguishers to put the blaze completely out and much less hazardous for the occupants. The high fire loading of the petroleum based construction makes immediate action imperative.
This seems to make a good case for the 170 deg F head.  Installing separate heat and smoke sensors as independent alarms could be interesting.  If, say, the vehicle is stationary and the heat sensor alerts but the smoke sensor doesn't alert, then certainly you check out the heat alarm but perhaps not the same reaction as if the smoke sensor alerts?  The Fireboy-Xintex FR-2000 has two alarm zones. One could wire one zone for smoke and the other for heat.

Quote from: Barry & Cindy –
Pierce, how about a pressure switch on hose connection to fire extinguisher, that closes an audible alarm.  Even better if it uses a relay to 'latch' alarm that will continue after extinguisher pressure ends.
As Barry points out, another type of alerting is a buying a foam tank with a pressure switch.  When a head discharges it triggers an alarm in the remote panel and the panel alarm latches until silenced.  If I had this to do over I would consider that option.  Perhaps one downside to this would be that it only alerts after the event?  No early warning??

Quote from: Barry & Cindy –
The chance of a sprinkler head failure is one in sixteen million.
I like those odds.


Mark Duckworth
2003 U320 4220
Build 6199, Motorcade 17971

Re: Engine Fire Suppression Installation

Reply #10 –
Nascar uses these . There is a trunk system @ around 180 degrees and engine system at around  300.  They time out for Nascar and they sell them cheap . Check "Roush sales"  for one.
 You could use a pressure switch in the hose or head and have it trigger a relay with a horn.  The can /system would have to be unloaded to fit the switch , and the switch might  be prone to leak.
  Aircraft  might also use a similar system but definitely uses a dash indicator.   
 I always have an BA fire bottle  near me when the door is 20ft away.

Re: Engine Fire Suppression Installation

Reply #11 –
Regardless of what kind of detector is used, as I mentioned before, an early warning allows you to pull out of traffic, park, do a calm evacuation and then explore the problem without having to consider your family's safety. Do a mental picture of looking in the mirror, seeing smoke and then trying to collect your thoughts to make all the correct decisions while pulling off the road. Difficult at best.

The oxygen supplied from vehicle movement is any fire's best friend and will greatly hinder the capabilities of any type of fire extinguisher.

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: Engine Fire Suppression Installation

Reply #12 –
On our fire suppression system, my installer at the time produced a audible detector panel that not only shows which detector activated the alarm but also produce a 125 decibel siren to alert us of a problem. Unfortunately, the owner of the company has since sold the company and along with his departure this great system is no longer available.

A shut off is a must for any fire suppression system. You will need to recharge these systems over a period of two years and without the shut off, you have a real issue. Some systems built today without a shut off also have non-rechargeable cylinders. While they are cheaper, in the long run you have to spend more money in the long run.

Consider also installing foam unit where the hydro hot unit is as well as the generator. Since these units use fuel too, they can produce a nasty fire as well.

Finally, when I was driving buses, I had one engine fire while driving. At first I did not know I had a problem but quickly the engine died and I pulled over and safely unload 49 passengers. Let me say that when a foam unit is used, there is so much foam used that any wind from driving made very little difference to the amount of foam needed. The foam covered the entire engine, smothering out a fuel line fire and saving the bus. Luckily, I had shut off the bus before going back to see why the engine died which in turn shut off the electric fuel pump. I was surprised to see foam all over the ground and back of the coach before opening the engine doors. Once I had opened the doors, I could not even see the engine at first. Thank goodness for the foam and this is why from day one when I bought my Foretravel I had the fire suppression system installed. FOT took many pictures of my unit and really took an interest in what I had. If you are hunting around for a great fire suppression system, then check out the marine market for they use them a lot.

Bob
Bob & Kathy
2007 Nimbus
Full Timers
Retired Charter Bus Owner/Operator

Re: Engine Fire Suppression Installation

Reply #13 –
AFFF foam is great stuff and the residual foam after use is no big deal. With the remote air intake, the engine may continue to run like in the case of the video I shot. Nice you have the audible alarm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dX6sJ91fK-U

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: Engine Fire Suppression Installation

Reply #14 –
Back in a previous life I worked on military aircraft. The fire suppression systems I remember used hydrofluorcarbon or Halon extinguishing agents. The fire sensors where photo cells similar to the flame sensor used in the AquaHot burner. The pilot was given a visual and audio alarm and then had to decide if he wanted to manually activate the extinguishing agent. False alarms were not uncommon. Never had an occasion to see if these systems really worked.
Steve & Sandy
2003 U320 4220 WCDS, build#6160
Motorcade #17794
USMC '67-'71

Re: Engine Fire Suppression Installation

Reply #16 –
You are supposed to have automatic engine shutoff whenever you have an automatic extinguisher system. With a diesel, you need a shutoff valve for the intake also in case there is a flammable fluid spraying in the engine compartment that would keep the engine running.
Steve DeLange
2005 U320T 40'
Pearland, Texas

Re: Engine Fire Suppression Installation

Reply #17 –
You could hook the pressure switch/relay to the fuel stop solenoid and shut off the engine . Downside is the engine stops and you are parking right now.  Knowing the engine is on fire but still running gives you a few more seconds of options.  The engine will continue to run pretty much under water as long as the fuel keeps running.

Re: Engine Fire Suppression Installation

Reply #18 –
Thanks for all the input and discussion.  I know the configuration of the tank and hoses without a shutoff valve or pressure switch wasn't the ideal product selection, but it was free.  After thinking about all of your comments above, I plan to install the cockpit alarm, external horn, and some smoke and heat detectors.  Thinking about adding smoke and heat detectors to the basement, refrigerator compartment and the interior. 

I'm on the fence about the engine auto shutdown.  I agree it would be ideal to pull off the road prior to engine auto-shutdown.  Any more thoughts on auto-shutdown?

Because the system needs to be recharged every 2 years, maybe that would be the time to get the plumbing on the tank redone to add a pressure switch and a cutoff valve so the lines can be reinstalled more gracefully?
Mark Duckworth
2003 U320 4220
Build 6199, Motorcade 17971

Re: Engine Fire Suppression Installation

Reply #19 –
Only the race systems needs to be  re certified every few years.  The common check is to unhook the bottle and give it a shake test.  It should feel as tho it has some fluid inside, no rock solid. 
 FWIW any of the AFFF systems are water based and will freeze.
 The auto shut down seems like a good idea. Reality is that all those behind you are well aware of the fire before you are and will give enough room  . IMHO.

Re: Engine Fire Suppression Installation

Reply #20 –
Quote from: Protech Racing –
FWIW any of the AFFF systems are water based and will freeze.
Good to know!  I saw a couple of youtube videos where the tank is mounted in the engine compartment.  Seems like a plus to mount it inside the coach from a freeze protection point of view.
Quote from: Protech Racing –
Only the race systems needs to be  re certified every few years.
Also good to know.  Thanks!
Mark Duckworth
2003 U320 4220
Build 6199, Motorcade 17971

Re: Engine Fire Suppression Installation

Reply #21 –
An automatic shutdown can be a good idea as well as a bad one too. Consider driving down a freeway and the coach shuts down due to a fire while you are in the middle lane of the road. Now you must exit the coach onto the highway. Just cause there is a fire going on, do you think the motorists are going to all stop in all lanes or look for ways to go around you? Now here you are in the middle of road, trying to get out of the coach with cars flying seriously close to you. Better off with an alarm where you can steer the coach to side of the road and escape safely. Automatic shut offs are great for boats where you have lots more room.
Bob
Bob & Kathy
2007 Nimbus
Full Timers
Retired Charter Bus Owner/Operator

Re: Engine Fire Suppression Installation

Reply #22 –
Quote from: Mark Duckworth –
Good to know!  I saw a couple of youtube videos where the tank is mounted in the engine compartment.  Seems like a plus to mount it inside the coach from a freeze protection point of view.Also good to know.  Thanks!

I have had all three of my foam units either have been mounted of the engine or in compartments for over ten years now. We have been in very cold weather and never had a freeze up. Last year, we had all three tanks removed and refilled. It was exciting to see these units in action as we discharged them outside the coach for a refill.
Bob
Bob & Kathy
2007 Nimbus
Full Timers
Retired Charter Bus Owner/Operator

Re: Engine Fire Suppression Installation

Reply #23 –
Quote from: floridarandy –
Interesting system shuts engine down and provides alert at detection and deployment of extinguisher.

Great comments about automatic shutdown.  I did note the item on the link I posted addresses the issue via:

Override switch for restart or control of auto-shutdown

This would appear to address the "middle lane of the expressway" concern which would certainly be real!
Randy (N4TDT) and Karen Crete
Sarasota, Florida
SOLD:  2000 U270 34' WTFE Build 5756 "Ole Red"

Re: Engine Fire Suppression Installation

Reply #24 –
Maybe the aircraft and commercial bus units have some sort of antifreeze solutiion. That would make sense  as frozen stuff wont  eject. Check the man and get back to us.  The racer units have a  warning  about freezing.