Replacement 8D Battery Purchase, Finally!

Topic: Replacement 8D Battery Purchase, Finally! (Read 1874 times) previous topic - next topic

Replacement 8D Battery Purchase, Finally!

September 20, 2017, 08:39:40 pm

I FINALLY pulled the trigger in getting New House Batteries! After Extensive ( Understatement!

) research into how to get the Most bang for my buck, I concluded in AGM's instead of the Wet Cells! I guess if you Amortize the cost, the AGM's make the most sense! I slid the old batteries out, and the shelf just dropped off, LOL. I then made a Baking Soda Solution, up and neutralized all the acid in the compartment! It had a Rubberized finish but it was degrading a bit, so I sprayed 2 cans of Rubberized Undercoating, to hit spots that needed touching up, and let dry, then coated again to get an even coat everywhere else! It turned out real well!

I debated in Getting Lifelines, but the price was a bit steep, MG Brand was in the coach for 11 years, and gave good service, but they were also pricey! I ended up deciding that the Vision Batteries were by Specs alone, the Highest available in the market for Amp Hours! To have 330 Amp Hours, compared to the 220 AH's the MG's had, and the Industry Standard of 250 AH's compared to the Vision's High AH's made it a No Brainer! Several places on the net sells them, but as far a Service Satisfaction, I chose this company! https://www.wholesalebatteriesdirect.com/vision-heavy-duty-sealed-agm-solar-batteries/79050-12-volt-330ah-8d-ev8d-330a-at-sealed-agm-heavy-duty-solar-battery.html.

There are cheaper places, but if you look at the fact they have a week or greater before they ship, and that one place, when you research the number given....they are located in the Philippines.....nope, I don't think so! I called Jay, who explained that these are really the best Battery for our purposes, because of the 1200 cycles at 50% DOD. I was told that Charging the battery @ 14.2v to 14.7v is paramount in keeping this particular type of battery alive and well, for that many cycles! So, now I must figure out how to regulate any discharge cycle to that golden 50% DOD! I read on another page it CAN sustain an 80% DOD, without Major degradation, but to only expect 800 cycles at that rate! Any suggestions are appreciated! I am a newbie, of course in all this, so I am still in the Learning Mode, in so many area's!

I will update my experience with the Shipper etc. I was told it will ship tomorrow, and I should have it possibly by Friday, so 2 days from now, we'll see? I was also told that a Battery Expert of sorts, split open a Lifeline Brand, and the Lead Plates were nothing more than the same thickness as was used in a smaller battery! The Vision's had much thicker plates and a better AGM composition. It would be best if that was backed up with pic's, to prove such claims, but just look at the weight difference alone! A bit over 160 lbs compared to 180 lbs!!!

I have seen many people on here state that weight is king on quality as a good measure also! I have a U320, which had a an Aqua - Hot Delete, so came from the Factory with only 2 House Batteries. The Real Estate exists in the Upper Shelf for another Battery, so I sprung for 3 of the Visions! If you do the Math, with the 3 Batteries capabilities, at that AH rating, it's like buying 4+ of the other brands normally installed! I like that, as we intend to Dry Camp, more than hop from Campground to Campground.....if possible?

Anyway, I spent way too many sleepless nights ( JK!

) trying to make the right decision....now I do hope I did make the right one! Please criticize if needed. You folks did change my opinion of doing Flooded Batteries.....and it was much appreciated! Honesty is the best medicine....especially when it comes to spending Coach Bucks! Thanks again!

Re: Replacement 8D Battery Purchase, Finally!

Reply #1 – September 21, 2017, 02:33:19 pm

Here was my order confirmation BTW! The FREE shipping goes out the window, for an order of LESS than 4 Batteries requested, but to me still a bargain!!!

EV8D-330A-AT
12volt 330ah 8D EV8D-330A-AT Sealed AGM Heavy Duty Solar Battery
$574.95
3
$1,724.85
Products
$1,724.85
Shipping
$0.00
Total Tax paid
$0.00
Total paid
$1,724.85

Re: Replacement 8D Battery Purchase, Finally!

Reply #2 – September 21, 2017, 02:46:46 pm

No one else in the battery biz has agm's higher than 250 amp hours. Amazing that they made a 30% improvement over every other manufacturer.

Re: Replacement 8D Battery Purchase, Finally!

Reply #3 – September 21, 2017, 03:35:39 pm

It is at least feasible as the specs list them at 180lbs. Net weight, 15 to 20 lbs. heavier than most 8D AGM's.
Don
[qwuote author=Caflashbob link=msg=288356 date=1506019606]
No one else in the battery biz has agm's higher than 250 amp hours. Amazing that they made a 30% improvement over every other manufacturer.
[/quote]

Re: Replacement 8D Battery Purchase, Finally!

Reply #4 – September 21, 2017, 03:44:01 pm

You might consider installing a battery monitor to see the battery bank State of Charge as well discharge/charge in amps/watts.

Re: Replacement 8D Battery Purchase, Finally!

Reply #5 – September 21, 2017, 03:53:12 pm

Here is what did two years ago from Factory Direct Prices. Top Quality Batteries SLA, UPS, Powersports & More....

Date Mon Nov 16 10:21:34 PST 2015
Ship to P Wyatt Sabourin
1003 Low Rd, Niland CA 92257
Via UPS Ground

Universal Power UB-8D AGM APX12-260-ABX-70085
46013 Battery Configuration

3 @ $339.88 each = Subtotal 1019.64
Coupon discount (pm5) -50.98
Subtotal 968.66
Shipping 289.99
Tax 0.00
Total 1258.65

The total per AGM 8D battery (delivered) was circa $420.

The price for Gel Batteries was $693 plus $97 for shipping, so $700 each, however, I believe that I could have obtained Gel Batteries for $675 delivered.

I felt the additional cost of $255 for each Gel battery was not justified even though my experience is that Gel batteries will cycle at least 50% more times than AGM Batteries.

I would be very interested in what the amphour rating of your 330 amphour batteries is in one year.

Re: Replacement 8D Battery Purchase, Finally!

Reply #6 – September 21, 2017, 03:55:53 pm

I agree with Scott, if boondocking you will definitely benefit from battery monitors, I have one for each battery.

Re: Replacement 8D Battery Purchase, Finally!

Reply #7 – September 21, 2017, 06:51:53 pm

Quote from: P. Wyatt Sabourin – September 21, 2017, 03:55:53 pm

I agree with Scott, if boondocking you will definitely benefit from battery monitors, I have one for each battery.

I did not realize you now have other than Gel Batteries? There was something that caused me to NOT consider Gels.....can't recall what it was, but it became an issue to me, so I stopped considering them. I have scoured the FT Forum and came across several mentions of yours and how happy you were with the service you got out of them.....but I then saw these Batteries, and it was almost like it was the ONLY way to go!

Yes, in a Year, I'd be interested in them also! Heck in 10 years I'd like to at least get, is important to me too
I do want to care for them properly and have to come up with the best plan to do so!
Thanks for your input, and others as well! I sure do appreciate any and all comments to make sure I do my best for these batteries!

Re: Replacement 8D Battery Purchase, Finally!

Reply #8 – September 21, 2017, 06:53:26 pm

Ahh, now I recall, it requires special Charging procedures that if you do not do it, they die quickly?

Re: Replacement 8D Battery Purchase, Finally!

Reply #9 – September 21, 2017, 07:31:32 pm

Okay, here is a hopefully helpful comment for you... since you are adding a third battery, you will need to change the cabling anyway. Ideally, all of the battery cables for batteries in the same bank should be the same length or as close as you can reasonably make them. As far as I am concerned, bus bars are the only way to go! In other words, you make three sets of battery cables all the same length, each with just one battery terminal on one end and and a lug for the bus bar on the other. The Bus bar should have at least four lugs, one for each of the three batteries and one for the connection to the fuse holder. I would also add a heavy duty battery disconnect switchbetween the bus bar and the fuse holder to make servicing easier and safer. If you want t go all out, add a shunt between each of the battery negative cables and the negative bus bar so could add a battery monitor for each battery

. If not add a shunt between the negative bus bar and the inverter connection. You can buy suitable bus bars already made with nice covers, or you can make your own out of (at least) ¼" X 1.5" copper bar stock.
Here is a link to my thread on fitting four batteries into a U270 which came with two.
Installing 4 batteries and a busbar setup in a 99' 36 foot U270
Don

Quote from: RetiredGuns – September 21, 2017, 06:51:53 pm

Yes, in a Year, I'd be interested in them also! Heck in 10 years I'd like to at least get, is important to me too
I do want to care for them properly and have to come up with the best plan to do so!
Thanks for your input, and others as well! I sure do appreciate any and all comments to make sure I do my best for these batteries!

Re: Replacement 8D Battery Purchase, Finally!

Reply #10 – September 21, 2017, 08:31:31 pm

My guru buddy who is a gel installer only normally made a comment that the 250 amp hour lifeline AGM's were, in his opinion, a superior design versus normal AGM's.

The magnum inverter has two AGM setting. One for all others and a second one with a different voltage and charge rate setting and the inverter has a equalizer setting for the lifeline's only.

The 10% higher amp hour rating and the quicker charging and the possible extended life from the ability to be equalized might make me consider AGM's versus the oem Gels in every unicoach.

The 37 more useable amp hours to 50% SOC might help offset the 50% reduction in cycle life a bit.

Wonder what the "dry cell"technical breakthrough mentioned on the vision batteries web page is?

Have to admit a 30% jump in capacity in an intensely competitive market would have to be proven to me.

Like Wyatt said measure these in a year and post the results to help all of us.

Re: Replacement 8D Battery Purchase, Finally!

Reply #11 – September 21, 2017, 09:26:07 pm

Quote from: Don & Tys (AKA acousticart) – September 21, 2017, 07:31:32 pm

Okay, here is a hopefully helpful comment for you... since you are adding a third battery, you will need to change the cabling anyway. Ideally, all of the battery cables for batteries in the same bank should be the same length or as close as you can reasonably make them. As far as I am concerned, bus bars are the only way to go! In other words, you make three sets of battery cables all the same length, each with just one battery terminal on one end and and a lug for the bus bar on the other. The Bus bar should have at least four lugs, one for each of the three batteries and one for the connection to the fuse holder. I would also add a heavy duty battery disconnect switchbetween the bus bar and the fuse holder to make servicing easier and safer. If you want t go all out, add a shunt between each of the battery negative cables and the negative bus bar so could add a battery monitor for each battery . If not add a shunt between the negative bus bar and the inverter connection. You can buy suitable bus bars already made with nice covers, or you can make your own out of (at least) ¼" X 1.5" copper bar stock.
Here is a link to my thread on fitting four batteries into a U270 which came with two.
Installing 4 batteries and a busbar setup in a 99' 36 foot U270
Don

Thanks! A very thorough and interesting Install you did there! Maybe I will get 4 MORE Batteries and add them like that! LOL! I will obtain those Bus Bars....great idea! I already have 2.0 ( That's 2 Ought?) heavy cable, about 50' of both Black, and Red, heavy Duty cable used in Welding cables. I used them to run cables with quick connects Front and Rear for a 10K winch setup in 2 vehicles, that slide into a receiver hitch, for offroad fun! It was cheaper to buy a full reel of the Cable, hence, I still have plenty! There is already enough room to fit 2 more cables through a feed hole from the top to the bottom shelf! Having equal lengths, that I match with the two bottom Batteries, may already be easily done, as they allowed those cables to be very long so they can slide into the compartment in the Bay! I have a Motorcycle Jack/Lift that can easily get the Batteries to get the correct height to just muscle slide them in! Great idea's all, they keep me confident I did the right thing for what I am trying to accomplish here!!!

Re: Replacement 8D Battery Purchase, Finally!

Reply #12 – September 21, 2017, 09:36:55 pm

Just an FYI, but Tom, one of the owners of the Prevost Community website, sells Lifeline AGMs for a good price. He will have them shipped to your closest FedEx ground terminal and you pick them up. Was good to work with and I don't believe you have to be a member of the website.

Re: Replacement 8D Battery Purchase, Finally!

Reply #13 – September 21, 2017, 09:41:05 pm

Quote from: Caflashbob – September 21, 2017, 08:31:31 pm

My guru buddy who is a gel installer only normally made a comment that the 250 amp hour lifeline AGM's were, in his opinion, a superior design versus normal AGM's.

The magnum inverter has two AGM setting. One for all others and a second one with a different voltage and charge rate setting and the inverter has a equalizer setting for the lifeline's only.

The 10% higher amp hour rating and the quicker charging and the possible extended life from the ability to be equalized might make me consider AGM's versus the oem Gels in every unicoach.

The 37 more useable amp hours to 50% SOC might help offset the 50% reduction in cycle life a bit.

Wonder what the "dry cell"technical breakthrough mentioned on the vision batteries web page is?

Have to admit a 30% jump in capacity in an intensely competitive market would have to be proven to me.

Like Wyatt said measure these in a year and post the results to help all of us.

I was sort of confused as to that "Dry Cell" technology as well! I am in contact with the seller, and will ask him about that one! I think if those who want to get these Batteries, get with someone who owns a FT close to you, and buy 4 for a better deal, perhaps? Just a thought anyway? As said I was still happy with the price, in comparison! What procedure do I establish those Amp Hours BTW? Guess I need that before I can provide valuable feedback for all! I certainly want to contribute whatever I can to this forum, as many here really put so much into helping our exclusive community! It has always been the case though, since my 1st involvement some 20 odd years ago, when selling these excellent examples of the finest machine man can hope to produce! So many of us know that though! The Clientele ( Buyers ) I had were always Top Notch, and I sure enjoyed going to work everyday! The Interweb was just a baby at the time....but what it has evolved into sure is a valuable asset for us all!

Re: Replacement 8D Battery Purchase, Finally!

Reply #14 – September 21, 2017, 09:43:46 pm

Quote from: Kurt – September 21, 2017, 09:36:55 pm

Just an FYI, but Tom, one of the owners of the Prevost Community website, sells Lifeline AGMs for a good price. He will have them shipped to your closest FedEx ground terminal and you pick them up. Was good to work with and I don't believe you have to be a member of the website.

Good to know for others, but I already sourced these over Lifelines, which I knew was the Gold Standard by reputation alone. Hopefully my experience will be as good as of those with Lifelines? I will see, and give any feedback I can provide in the future!

Re: Replacement 8D Battery Purchase, Finally!

Reply #15 – September 22, 2017, 01:04:30 am

Tom. I use 4/0 welding cable as to me 2/0 is small for amps etc.
JohnH

Re: Replacement 8D Battery Purchase, Finally!

Reply #16 – September 22, 2017, 08:01:01 am

Quote from: John Haygarth – September 22, 2017, 01:04:30 am

Tom. I use 4/0 welding cable as to me 2/0 is small for amps etc.
JohnH

Hmm, you scared me for a second there! I went out and verified what was in the coach, and found the Biggest cable was 2/0 OEM! For the past 22 years that was sufficient? Don't tell me now that I have added a third Battery, and more AVAILABLE Amps, I now have to upgrade the cable too? I sure hope not? The short runs seem to be sufficient per Amp Rating Charts that I saw? Please explain? The way I see it, unless you Increase the Load, would you require the Larger Sized Cable.....correct? And Longer Runs, of course! And Larger Cable equals more resistance causing more battery drain, etc. You can run, 200' of 18 AWG from the same Battery Bank, for a small 12vDC fan using milliAmps, and be OK AFAIK? If you could elaborate, please? I am Not an Electrical Engineer, but was an Avionics Tech in the Corps....I know I am a bit rusty, but that's how I recall how it all works?

Re: Replacement 8D Battery Purchase, Finally!

Reply #17 – September 22, 2017, 08:24:19 am

Quote from: RetiredGuns – September 22, 2017, 08:01:01 am

I went out and verified what was in the coach, and found the Biggest cable was 2/0 OEM! For the past 22 years that was sufficient?

Curious. On our '93 U280, with the original battery setup (2 start batts, 2 house batts) all of the big cables attached to the batteries are triple ought (3/0 or 000) gauge. Seems like your newer coach would have at least the same size, if not larger, cables.

What does your wiring diagram show for battery cable gauge?

Re: Replacement 8D Battery Purchase, Finally!

Reply #18 – September 22, 2017, 08:34:42 am

Our OEM Battery Cable was 3-0, while the cable from the original 200W Inverter (Heart Freedom 20) was 2-0. Forettravel calls out the wiring size on the Automotive wiring diagram, B2126. I don't know why yours would be different, but anything is possible. 2-0 cabling from each individual battery to a bus bar would be sufficient (Full disclosure, I used 4-0 marine cable throughout my installation, only keeping the OEM 3-0 for the wire run between the two banks for the boost solenoid). However in my opinion, the wire run from the bus bars onward should be upsized to 4-0. Would 3-0 to the inverter work? Sure, as you say it was fine for all those years if that is what is there. But if you build things for meeting the max possible current draw, the instructions for th e 12V 3000W inverters that I have looked at specify using 4-0 for the inverter connections. From the Magnum MSH3012M "• Battery cables should be no less than #4/0 AWG (107.2 mm2) for 12-volt and #2/0 AWG (67.4 mm2) for 24-volt systems. Crimped and sealed copper ring terminal lugs with a 5/16 hole should be used to connect to the DC terminals on the inverter."

As far as resistance goes, for the same type of conductor, a larger size offers less resistance for the same distance which equals less voltage drop as well as less heat. Given the right tools, making new cables is not that difficult, and knowing that things are right and safely done, is priceless IMHO

Don

Quote from: RetiredGuns – September 22, 2017, 08:01:01 am

Hmm, you scared me for a second there! I went out and verified what was in the coach, and found the Biggest cable was 2/0 OEM! For the past 22 years that was sufficient? Don't tell me now that I have added a third Battery, and more Amps, I now have to upgrade the cable too? I sure hope not? The short runs seem to be sufficient per Amp Rating Carts that I saw? Please explain? The way I see it, unless you Increase the Load, would you require the Larger Sized Cable.....correct? And Longer Runs, of course! And Larger Cable equals more resistance causing more battery drain, etc. You can run, 200' of 18 AWG from the same Battery Bank, for a small 12vDC fan using milliAmps, and be OK AFAIK? If you could elaborate, please?

Re: Replacement 8D Battery Purchase, Finally!

Reply #19 – September 22, 2017, 08:42:17 am

Quote from: Don & Tys (AKA acousticart) – September 22, 2017, 08:34:42 am

But if you build things for meeting the max possible current draw, the instructions for the 12V 3000W inverters that I have looked at specify using 4-0 for the inverter connections.

Ditto on that. When AM Solar installed our MS2812, they ran new 4/0 cable (I overheard the techs grumbling about the tight quarters...)

Re: Replacement 8D Battery Purchase, Finally!

Reply #20 – September 22, 2017, 08:53:42 am

Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie – September 22, 2017, 08:24:19 am

Curious. On our '93 U280, with the original battery setup (2 start batts, 2 house batts) all of the big cables attached to the batteries are triple ought (3/0 or 000) gauge. Seems like your newer coach would have at least the same size, if not larger, cables.

Nope! Most of the printing on the cables have worn off, but fortunately one did have visible print that clearly had 2/0 on it! For whatever reason, I took pics, but can't get them to D/L on to my computer, just now? So, beyond those Technical difficulties, I might just confer with Nac Technical Department for further guidance in this matter, perhaps? There are what MAY appear to be larger cable, that Feeds into the coach, main trunk line, but the print is illegible.....so? Otherwise, I see no reason, whatsoever to Increase the size....but I sure could stand corrected on this issue, certainly!

Re: Replacement 8D Battery Purchase, Finally!

Reply #21 – September 22, 2017, 01:14:36 pm

RetiredGuns in Reply #8 you said:
"it requires special Charging procedures that if you do not do it, they die quickly?"

This is not an issue with the standard Foretravel wiring, because Chargers and Solar Controllers have settings for "Gel Batteries", and because when driving, the alternator output is controlled by the start battery voltage and your house batteries will only be trickle charged (unless the Boost is on).

In my case, because I do not have two battery banks, (just one battery bank), I reset the alternator output voltage.

Caflashbob in Reply #10 you said:
"the 250 amp hour lifeline AGM's were, in his opinion, a superior design versus normal AGM's."

My experience with Lifeline AGM batteries was not good. I purchased three in May 2010 which I replaced in Nov 2015 because their amphour capacity had dropped to 20 amp hours and 40 amp hours. They had been cycled to 80% charged about 1000 times. The Gel battery they were used with had an amphour capacity of 65 but it was 12 years old and had been cycled about 2300 times.

AWG wire size required:
There are tables available to determine the AWG wire size required which results in "Shades of Grey" numbers because you provide three numbers: the amps, the feet, and the % voltage drop, then read the AWG wire size from the table. Larger (smaller AWG) is required for higher amps, longer distance, and lower voltage drop.
There are other factors effecting the voltage drop besides AWG, the connection between the cable and the "cable end" as well as the connection between the "cable end" and the lug. To determine a problem, measure the temperature of the cable and connections after drawing the maximum amps for a few minutes - if it is too hot to hold - there is a problem.

BATTERY CAPACITY:
Read the thread titled "Measure coach battery capacity" in "Foretravel Tech Talk" to learn how to determine amphour capacity of your batteries.

Re: Replacement 8D Battery Purchase, Finally!

Reply #22 – September 22, 2017, 01:18:20 pm

Update on AWG wire size required:

Measuring the voltage drop over a cable run with a digital volt meter will also provide information about inadequate cable size.

Re: Replacement 8D Battery Purchase, Finally!

Reply #23 – September 22, 2017, 01:22:42 pm

Same guru buddy mentioned that lifeline had confused advise about equalizing their batteries as some he had equalized had bulged the cases. And non equalized lost capacity

Re: Replacement 8D Battery Purchase, Finally!

Reply #24 – September 22, 2017, 02:22:50 pm

Quote from: P. Wyatt Sabourin – September 22, 2017, 01:14:36 pm

when driving, the alternator output is controlled by the start battery voltage and your house batteries will only be trickle charged (unless the Boost is on).

Hmmm, on my (ex) U300, I did extensive testing when I installed a Delco 40SI alternator with voltage sense connected to the start battery. With house batteries discharged to approx 50%, I initially saw 100+ amps going to the house batteries as measured with a clip on amp meter. This tapered down after driving for awhile. I wouldn't call this a trickle charge. If house batteries are not getting charged properly while driving, this would indicate a faulty isolator or bad connection somewhere.

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