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Topic: When is enough enough? (Read 1219 times) previous topic - next topic

When is enough enough?

Reading the advice that has been given re FT coaches for sale at various locations it got me to wondering if there is actually a common thought regarding when to draw the line in the sand.  Another words when has a coach become a boat anchor and no longer viable to rehabilitate?  My first thought would be that it is a trick question.  There would always be somebody somewhere that would meet the right set of circumstances that would render any coach, regardless of condition, as viable.  But let's just say as a general rule when does one shake their head and walk away.  In my musings I would suppose this would also apply to updating a rig with new flooring, shades, paint, etc. as well.  I am reading where many folks have bought an older coach and intend to run the wheels off of it until it no longer is coast efficient to do so (other then regular maintenance items).  Others would take that same coach, pay the $24k or so upfront and then drop another $40k for upgrades.  I would think that, again, that it would depend on the individual and the circumstances.  One is an up front cost and the other is more of a "pay as you go" process.  Maybe it all comes down to the "journey" and is more of an individual assessment rather then a cut and dry guideline.  Anyway, was wondering what the wisdom of the forum thought about the topic?
Randy & Connie Peterson
Carlsbad, NM
1994 Grand Villa  #4593  SOLD
U240 36' Unihome CAT 3116 6 Speed Allison
Motorcader  17988    SKP  103142
2016 Ford F150 Towed Vehicle

Re: When is enough enough?

Reply #1 –
The "line in the sand" is corrosion!!!

A coach with much corrosion is nothing more than a parts coach unless you want to use it as a cabin down on the farm. It's just like buying a Houston flood vehicle that sat in salt water. The problems encountered will quickly induce "owner fatigue."

A clean coach without corrosion should be able to kept going forever by a knowledgeable owner with DIY skills even if it needs an engine or transmission. Old here means old. No financing, smaller buyer's market, etc. Too many new gasoline coaches with Triton V-10s that get 8 mpg on the market now. They are light and not built as well but easy to get financing on plus they have a warranty.

Buying a coach that has had all the "upgrades" done will be a lot cheaper than trying to do it as you go. The upgraded coaches only sell for little more than the OEM variety on the used market.  It's not like a house with a new kitchen or bath.

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: When is enough enough?

Reply #2 –
Randy,

I don't think you will get any "cut and dried" answer to your question.  As you say, it is so much a case of each individual person and what he/she considers "money well spent".  No coach is so totally trashed that it can't be restored, but at some point only a crazy fanatic would take on the job.  I think there will always be people who have the money, time and energy to bring desirable old vehicles (of all types) back to life.  I personally believe the Foretravel GV models, because of their unusual "classic" look and design, will always be more likely to attract buyers willing to spend whatever time and cash is required to keep them running.

As an example, take our coach.  When we started shopping for a motorhome, we earmarked $60K to buy it, and another $10K for initial necessary expenses.  When we finally found the coach we wanted to buy, it only cost us $30K and was ready to hit the road.  In the 4 years since then, we have spent the other $30K (plus some) doing mostly voluntary upgrades to make the coach more suited to our usage and tastes.  We would rather have the "customized" older model we own now, than any newer coach we could have purchased for the same total amount of cash.  For us, spending our hard earned money on a old GV makes perfect sense, and we don't regret a penny of it.
1993 U280 SE 40' WTBI, Build: 4359
C8.3 300hp, 6-Speed, Exhaust Brake
960 watts on the roof (6 x 160)
Sorento (or BOLT) on a Kar Kaddy SS
"Nature abhors a vacuum"

Re: When is enough enough?

Reply #3 –
Any money I put in my older coach is not for an investment, it is for my enjoyment.  We decide how much we want to spend on it and we enjoy every bit of it until we can't anymore.  It the long run, it is still cheaper than buying a newer coach of lesser quality or even of higher quality and we know what we have.
John M.
John & Carm Morales

"We travel not to go anywhere, but to just go.  We travel for travel's sake.  Our great desire is to move."

Re: When is enough enough?

Reply #4 –
 My perspective on this question comes from many years visiting the RV supershow in Tampa. We looked at class a motorhomes for retirement. Even the least expensive class a diesel pusher would run from $175,000 up. Even a coach for $275,000 wasn't anything "special" and, like most new RVs, had thin walls, off the shelf chassis's, lots of "shiny bits" and no real, solid, character. Just lots of "looks like wood " materials.

As a result, our decision to spend far less for a FT allowed us to put whatever we wanted in I improvements, upgrades, repairs, etc. without ever running the risk of spending as much as a new coach. And  when you consider the depreciation on a new coach, we feel will come out ahead after all our improvements.

 Given the first 1200 miles of our new adventure with our 2000 era coach, I can tell you that all of our travels will be more comfortable with our Foretravel than with any new diesel pusher less than $300,000.

Just my opinion.

Randy
Randy (N4TDT) and Karen Crete
Sarasota, Florida
SOLD:  2000 U270 34' WTFE Build 5756 "Ole Red"

Re: When is enough enough?

Reply #5 –
Good solid older coaches (1992 and 1994 unihome) is my experience to Alaska the last several years with very little problems. Could not ask for better.
George Ray 1992 U280 40'

Re: When is enough enough?

Reply #6 –
Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart –
The "line in the sand" is corrosion!!!
All due respect, I don't believe even corrosion is the Kiss of Death.  Again, it is simply a matter of degree.  I have witnessed some miraculous restorations on this Forum in the short time we've been members.  One only needs to look at Don's immaculate jewel.  How many owners would have walked away from that one?  Many, I am sure.  And yet, because it fell into the right hands, it emerged after countless hours of grueling labor in arguably better shape than when it was new.

There have also been several other total floor replacements documented here.  That kind of work doesn't come cheap, yet the owners believed that it was worth the cost in time and money.  Even extreme cases of corrosion can be corrected, if the owner is convinced the final result will meet their expectations.

How about the coach that suffered a interior fire, owned by Roughton1?  They have restored or replaced almost every single item on the inside of the coach.  The end result is beautiful, and most people would be hard pressed to tell it from original.  Would I have taken on that project?  No way, but I sure am glad there are people out there with the skill and expertise to accomplish what I can't or won't.

I personally wouldn't write off ANY coach as a "parts only" derelict.  No sooner do I think that, then someone steps up and proves me wrong.
1993 U280 SE 40' WTBI, Build: 4359
C8.3 300hp, 6-Speed, Exhaust Brake
960 watts on the roof (6 x 160)
Sorento (or BOLT) on a Kar Kaddy SS
"Nature abhors a vacuum"

Re: When is enough enough?

Reply #7 –
Chuck,

I understand your point about Don and the really super excellent job he did with the extensive repair.

I don't think Don was even slightly aware of the problem the coach had when he purchased it. We all looked at the great photos and I will have to say, it looked as new. If he had been aware, I don't think he would have purchased the coach at that price or perhaps not at any price. Don't want to put words in his mouth and would like to here from him about it.

The repair he did was so excellent that it would have probably amounted to a very significant percentage of his original purchase price if he had a top shop do the work. As it was, it took many months of very hard work.

So, I think there is a difference between restoring a coach with damage like Don's rig if you know about it ahead of time and the selling price reflects your estimate of what it will take to get it right again. A lot also depends on the ability of the buyer to do the work compared to if the work has to be accomplished by a shop. Very easy to get trapped where you HAVE to do the repairs after you have purchased a coach.

A leak in the wet bay or other vulnerable spots is also light years away from corrosion damage from driving on salted roads. In this case, the white salt deposits have wreaked havoc with the electrical components in the engine compartment and other electrical panels/components. Even the generator compartment will show evidence of the damage.

And how about the brakes? Sticking calipers are frequently found on salted coaches.

The best way not to get backed into a corner is to throughly inspect a coach ahead of time so you don't have any unnecessary surprises after purchasing. The coach that has been advertised in Arizona for $13,xxx appears to be clean and can probably be purchased for $10-12K and assuming it does not have any hidden rot, would be a good candidate for only PM and an occasional repair down the road.

We looked long and hard for a coach without any significant problems and that was very reasonably priced. Other than upgrades that were elective, in nine years we have not spent even one coach buck total for any failures, just a tire and a couple of airbags. Lots of diesel, cases of engine oil and insurance $$$. If I had not had a background in things that move, I sure would have hired someone with experience to inspect it. We wanted a coach for the National Parks and Mexico NOW, not spending a lot of time fixing it.

The good ones don't initially cost more than the bad ones and are far less expensive in the long run, maybe even the short run.

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: When is enough enough?

Reply #8 –
The $24k and $40k seems a bit high but within reason. 

The only way out is to drive the money out you invested in miles and days of use.

Not for the faint of wallet and/or unlucky....

Somewhat large dice roll. 

As I told countless prospective rv'ers.  "You need a smile on your face to own an rv."

Or "If your not smiling this may not be fun."

"Let me see your smile." 

Some rv for 10 cents a mile. Some for a dollar per mile.  I have had some spend $10 a mile from low use.

"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: When is enough enough?

Reply #9 –
My 270 is my 57 Chevy.  Solid when I bought it but had to have the three deuces, Hurst, roll and tuck and big dice hanging from the mirror.  Put a spreadsheet together with what your budget, and a realistic assessment of your abilities, will support.  It will be different for any one of us.  We bought in the 20s have spent in the upper 30s and are probably upside down in the market by 10+.  But that is 10k of learning, relationships and just plain fun.

George and Steph
1997 U270 36 Build 5081 "Honu"
1180w Solar 400A lithium all Victron house system
Motorcade 17670, SKP 128300, FMCA F459019
73 VW Camper, 79 VW Camper, 2363 Sunline, and an Arctic Fox 25P

Re: When is enough enough?

Reply #10 –
Building on George's analogy, some people buy vehicles (coaches, cars, motorcycles, boats) with the intent of trading every few years.  They like the variety of changing toys often.  Others buy what they really, really want, and hold on to it until uncontrollable circumstances force a change.  We fall into the latter group.  We bought our "last coach first".  That was our goal, and that is what we did.  We began our RV adventure late in life, and wanted to buy a coach that would keep us happy until such time as we could no longer participate in this lifestyle.

My point is, if you know you are going to hang onto a coach, then you don't mind spending money on it.  Everyone realizes you don't recover the money spent fixing up a motorhome - that's common knowledge.  So then the only justification becomes personal satisfaction.  If it makes my wife and I happy, then that's all that counts.  When (like us) you have limited discretionary funds, you want to get the most bang for your buck.  For us, that means pouring our spare cash into a old classic Foretravel, just because it's fun and it makes us smile.  ;D
1993 U280 SE 40' WTBI, Build: 4359
C8.3 300hp, 6-Speed, Exhaust Brake
960 watts on the roof (6 x 160)
Sorento (or BOLT) on a Kar Kaddy SS
"Nature abhors a vacuum"

Re: When is enough enough?

Reply #11 –
Almost anything can be brought back from the edge. I guess the point of no return is when you loose the enjoyment and satisfaction from the time and money spent. As far as my old 99 goes I could spend 10k a a year and not even get close to what it would cost to up grade to a newer coach.
Bruce, Linda, and Macy
Zoey RIP 1/20/19
1999 U295 40' build #5400
2017 silver Jeep Wrangler, 1260 watts of solar on top
Moving around the country

Re: When is enough enough?

Reply #12 –
Quote from: bbeane –
Almost anything can be brought back from the edge. I guess the point of no return is when you loose the enjoyment and satisfaction from the time and money spent. As far as my old 99 goes I could spend 10k a a year and not even get close to what it would cost to up grade to a newer coach.
Best analogy yet!
Rick Barna
St. Petersburg FL.
1998 U270 36'
Build # 5232
1972 CJ 5 Jeep

Re: When is enough enough?

Reply #13 –
Thanks to all for responding to my musings.  Chuck probably said it best and that would depend on circumstances.  Everyone has their own stars to follow and there own path to walk.  We were lucky with our purchase.  I would label it pure dumb luck.  We have a terrific coach with no rust and intact bulk heads.  Everything worked from day one and still does today.  Except for the front furnace that the wife fixed by cleaning up the thermostat connections.  Sorry guys I know that effects my man card but credit where credit is due.  I started reflecting when I saw a 8 year newer coach with all the upgrades we wanted to do already done and the cost was a lot less then what I will pay updating our coach.  So I will leave it at the devil you know is better then the devil you don't.  Our coach is solid and I know every bolt and hose on her.  It's a long and twisted road to FT Nervana. 
Randy & Connie Peterson
Carlsbad, NM
1994 Grand Villa  #4593  SOLD
U240 36' Unihome CAT 3116 6 Speed Allison
Motorcader  17988    SKP  103142
2016 Ford F150 Towed Vehicle

Re: When is enough enough?

Reply #14 –
Now that the coach is paid off I can feel better about what else I want to put into it. With money spent in 2016 and 2017 I think I've kept up with the payments. Probably won't have to replace the turbo again nor the brakes or fuel pump. All of those cost a bunch but the mileage has improved drastically without the air and fuel leaks and the dragging brake pad. Won't pay for the repairs but it keeps us on the road and happy.
Larry
1996 U295 36'
Build # 4805
Actually we sold it but just like to lurk