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Topic: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help) (Read 640 times) previous topic - next topic - Topic derived from Prosine 2.5 Inverter ...

Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)

Reply #25
 Chuck,  this is a screenshot one from my iPhone of the Victron CCGX data.    Can monitor from anywhere if you use the WiFi chip.

 How things change in a few months huh Tim.  I am sure you remember the $8,000 Solar thread.
George and Steph
1997 U270 36 Build 5081 "Honu"
1180w Solar 400A lithium all Victron house system
Motorcade 17670, SKP 128300, FMCA F459019
73 VW Camper, 79 VW Camper, 2363 Sunline, and an Arctic Fox 25P

Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)

Reply #26
Yeah. 12 coach bucks later....
Tim Fiedler    2025 LTV Unity MBL on Order
2000 Chevy Tracker 2 Door Convertible 4WD Now lifted 4.5"
1985 Citroen 2CV6 Charleston
Murphy Rebel on wheels with 175HP Titan
Cessna P337
1980 48' Westport MY (!/4 Share)

Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)

Reply #27
That is pretty impressive trending data. How much solar have you got? Does the victron eleminate the ATS?
From what I've seen it can take care of voltage sags from genset or shore power. Most times I pretty leary of manf. claims as it seems most have a dozen ducks in front of them, and if one is out of place, claimed feature doesn't work.
Old Phart Phred, EIEIO
89 GV ored 36' #3405 300 hp cat 3208 ATAAC side radiator, mountain tamer exhaust brake

Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)

Reply #28
Victron can eliminate ATS and pass through 50 amps.
Sadly I could not take advantage of that without significant additional wiring expense.
Per AM Solar, The ProSine 2.5 could not pass through 50 amps. So FT put in a second transfer switch to switch the inverter in and out of circuit, and wired 50 amp direct to panel from Dhore power/generator output Since inverter panel was 2.5 max, the AC wire from ProSine was sized for the output of the ProSine 2500 watts, (maybe it was sized for 30 amps, I can't recall exactly the gauge of the wire) not 50 amps So significant wire pulls are required from the bed area to the inverter position in the basement back to the bed. Or moving the inverter location with changes to the 12 VDC cabling In the end, looking at 8 plus labor hours plus materials to go that route. So I opted to stay with two transfer switches and OEM wiring Yes, smart readers might ask replacing 2500 watts with 3000 watts will that overload the OEM AC wire.
Not sure, but don't intend to use high load devices any differently, so don't expect to exceed 2500 watts. Usually start generator for washer/dryer, induction top, microwave, coffee maker or hair blow dryer if not on shore power Anyway, that is how my feeble mind remembers the conversation at AM Solar
Tim Fiedler    2025 LTV Unity MBL on Order
2000 Chevy Tracker 2 Door Convertible 4WD Now lifted 4.5"
1985 Citroen 2CV6 Charleston
Murphy Rebel on wheels with 175HP Titan
Cessna P337
1980 48' Westport MY (!/4 Share)

Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)

Reply #29
My 270 came with one ATS and the Multi acts as the second.  (Unfortunately the schematic shows two and I looked everywhere for it) I have 800 for house and 100 for chassis.  The trend lines are for 400 lithium.

I used their, AMS, kits.  Great customer support during install.  I paid slightly more for some components but well worth it to not be stuck.  Also went all Victron to avoid conflicts.  Also check with Alan at Bay Marine.
George and Steph
1997 U270 36 Build 5081 "Honu"
1180w Solar 400A lithium all Victron house system
Motorcade 17670, SKP 128300, FMCA F459019
73 VW Camper, 79 VW Camper, 2363 Sunline, and an Arctic Fox 25P

Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)

Reply #30
Mine are stacked on on top of the other on the right side of the bed electronics bay
Tim Fiedler    2025 LTV Unity MBL on Order
2000 Chevy Tracker 2 Door Convertible 4WD Now lifted 4.5"
1985 Citroen 2CV6 Charleston
Murphy Rebel on wheels with 175HP Titan
Cessna P337
1980 48' Westport MY (!/4 Share)

Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)

Reply #31
Victron can eliminate ATS and pass through 50 amps.
Sadly I could not take advantage of that without significant additional wiring expense.
Per AM Solar, The ProSine 2.5 could not pass through 50 amps. So FT put in a second transfer switch to switch the inverter in and out of circuit, and wired 50 amp direct to panel from Dhore power/generator output Since inverter panel was 2.5 max, the AC wire from ProSine was sized for the output of the ProSine 2500 watts, (maybe it was sized for 30 amps, I can't recall exactly the gauge of the wire) not 50 amps So significant wire pulls are required from the bed area to the inverter position in the basement back to the bed. Or moving the inverter location with changes to the 12 VDC cabling In the end, looking at 8 plus labor hours plus materials to go that route. So I opted to stay with two transfer switches and OEM wiring Yes, smart readers might ask replacing 2500 watts with 3000 watts will that overload the OEM AC wire.
Not sure, but don't intend to use high load devices any differently, so don't expect to exceed 2500 watts. Usually start generator for washer/dryer, induction top, microwave, coffee maker or hair blow dryer if not on shore power Anyway, that is how my feeble mind remembers the conversation at AM Solar
Good info Tim. Often wondered why FT put in a ATS around the inverter when the inverter would do it automatically. My 270 only had a 20 amp circuit to the inverter, [basicly for the charging side] so using inverter ats would have limited loads on shore power.
Jim C.
coachfree, previous 1997, 1999, 2000, and 2003 Foretravels.

Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)

Reply #32
The week of Nov 13 we will be doing Victron inverter, controller, and 1080 watts solar at AM Solar in Eugene Oregon.  We will retain the 2 current ATS system to avoid additional wiring runs, and retain current gen auto start as we don't envision using gen auto start anyway.

We will also install 3 new Lifeline 8D AGMs at the same time.  Current batteries still working fine (Deka 8D AGMs with 2013 date). I figure get batteries  done now since they will already be in the battery compartment and they are heavy and buried in the middle of the coach.

On my previous Bluebird I self installed 300 watts of AM solar products and changed out the 31 series AGMs myself.  As fulltimers, I just want to hire it out this time.  We will move into a motel for 3-4 days to stay out of the way and reduce any need to pay labor to prep the coach for us each night to move the coach back out of the shop.



Dan - Full timing since 2009
2003 U320 40' Tag 2 slide

Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)

Reply #33
If your wanted to use the "power assist" hybrid feature on the Victron, [say running a roof air on 15 amp shore power] it seems that you would have to wire the roof air into your inverter output breaker panel. Am I right in assuming that you would have to remove the FT ats around the inverter and use the inverter internal transfer switch?
Jim C.
coachfree, previous 1997, 1999, 2000, and 2003 Foretravels.

Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)

Reply #34
For What It's Worth:

I have followed Technomadia's blog for the past couple of years, with regard to both internet and solar.  I became sold on the value of lithium batteries.  Yes, they are expensive, but like choosing how to invest, it all depends on your "investment horizon".  If you live in an RV full time your choice may be different from someone who does not.  If you plan to keep living that way for 20 years, likewise, your choice might be different from someone who does not.  My operating assumption was to set this rig up for 20 years of full time use.  Given that assumption, lithium became a serious contender.  Yes, lithium batteries are much more expensive than lead acid batteries - up front.  But they have their benefits.  To begin with they can be expected to last a lot longer.  They can also be discharged down to around 20% without damage, vs. lead acid which can drop to about 40%.  What was in the coach before was a nominal 725 Ah of AGM batteries - which is actually good for about 50-60% of that (435 Ah).  What is in the coach now is 600 Ah of lithium batteries, which is good for about 80% of that (480 Ah).  Not much of an increase.  But the re-charge speed is MUCH faster, the number of discharge cycles they can deliver is MUCH greater, they weigh a LOT less, and take up less space.  And they can be expected to cost less per unit of power delivered over their lifetime, probably significantly less.  So my thought was that making that purchase was an investment in energy and freedom for the next 20 years.  For someone else, none of that may apply and for them it would appear foolish.  To each his own.  Some have told me "diesel is a lot cheaper."  It is.  In my world silence is golden.

When I had the Victron batteries installed (to go with the all-Victron system built around the MultiPlus) I had decided in advance to put everything in the old washer/dryer compartment.  I chose to go with Victron batteries and to put them in this location based on this Technomadia post Technomadia - Lithium Update which suggested that the lack of heat regulation and insufficient charge balance were the probable causes of his home-made lithium battery bank showing more wear than expected after 3 and a half years.  Mine are in a mostly climate controlled space, and take advantage of Victron's tight integration to monitor and balance the batteries as well as possible.  And it sure was nice this past summer when driveway surfing not to have to worry about running the air conditioner on just 15 Amp shore power!  I'm sure it's not to everyone's taste, but when my intent is to cover ground while still working, I have been known to boondock during the day while working, and travel a few hours at a time after work, going without hookups for days at a time and running the generator for perhaps a couple of hours every few days if it gets cloudy or I decide to splurge on electricity.

I never worried about where the equipment was made.  Maybe I'm seriously naive?  But one thing I do know is that we all drive cars and use computers, cell phones, tablets, networking equipment, rely upon medical devices and equipment - all of which are either manufactured or contain components that are manufactured all over the world - China, India, Malaysia, Macao, Singapore, Taiwan, Japan, Korea, Mexico, Brazil...  But surely I must be missing *something*.  Obviously I'm not "in the know" since I don't believe that technology manufactured "elsewhere" must be inferior.  (What about cars manufactured in the US in the 70s and 80s?) I'll have to pause and reflect the next time I board a JetBlue Embraer Jet Designed And Manufactured In Brazil  Opinions and speculation are all good.  Problems arise when we confuse them with actual facts.

I don't know whose inverters are better.  The answer will depend an awful lot on who you ask.  I doubt very much the question will be answered with certainty - here or anywhere else.  Check back in 20 years or so.

Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)

Reply #35
Just spent a week solar-only boondocking at Mammoth Cave National Park. The most sunny campsite we could select still had about 70% tree cover, but still enabled about 2500 watt-hours of charge per day with our 1920 watts of solar.

Observations:

1. The solar panels generated as much power on lightly clouded days as sunny days due to beneficial scattering of light and less shadows from trees. This was about 3000 watt hours per day. If there were heavy, dark clouds, I estimate the power would be cut in half. If there was several days of heavy clouds, the generator would have to be run.
2. Left the inverter and all essential AC systems running 24hrs per day, and all systems drew about 3000 watt hours per day, so it was a draw. This is about 33% of the usable battery power.
3. Left the inverter on non-power-saver mode because I hypothesize that the iPad chargers, which are switching regulators, may be damaged by the inverter's sense circuitry.
4. Unplugged or did not use the following vampires when not in use: TV, Microwave, Ice Maker (made ice before-boondocking and placed in bags in freezer), put Laptop in sleep mode, engine battery float charge, fans.
5. The following used electrical power from the 48Volt lithium pack, either directly from the pure sine inverter or from the 115VAC to 13.6VDC converter: 12VDC control circuitry for propane furnace (50's at night), fridge and water heater. Plugged in two laptops, TV, projector, charged two iPads and two phones, LED lights, water pump, 12Volt power supply, wifi hotspot.
6. The power to only run the essential house equipment (fridge, heater and hot water) was 100 watts, or 2400 watt hours per day.

Congrats Dan on your solar installation. More Power!!
1997 U270 34FT Build 5140 Cummins 8.3 Allison 3060R
Solar 1920Watts, 14KWH lithium. Orion BMS.

Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)

Reply #36
For What It's Worth:

I have followed Technomadia's blog for the past couple of years, with regard to both internet and solar.  I became sold on the value of lithium batteries.  Yes, they are expensive, but like choosing how to invest, it all depends on your "investment horizon".  If you live in an RV full time your choice may be different from someone who does not.  If you plan to keep living that way for 20 years, likewise, your choice might be different from someone who does not.  My operating assumption was to set this rig up for 20 years of full time use.  Given that assumption, lithium became a serious contender.  Yes, lithium batteries are much more expensive than lead acid batteries - up front.  But they have their benefits.  To begin with they can be expected to last a lot longer.  They can also be discharged down to around 20% without damage, vs. lead acid which can drop to about 40%.  What was in the coach before was a nominal 725 Ah of AGM batteries - which is actually good for about 50-60% of that (435 Ah).  What is in the coach now is 600 Ah of lithium batteries, which is good for about 80% of that (480 Ah).  Not much of an increase.  But the re-charge speed is MUCH faster, the number of discharge cycles they can deliver is MUCH greater, they weigh a LOT less, and take up less space.  And they can be expected to cost less per unit of power delivered over their lifetime, probably significantly less.  So my thought was that making that purchase was an investment in energy and freedom for the next 20 years.  For someone else, none of that may apply and for them it would appear foolish.  To each his own.  Some have told me "diesel is a lot cheaper."  It is.  In my world silence is golden.

When I had the Victron batteries installed (to go with the all-Victron system built around the MultiPlus) I had decided in advance to put everything in the old washer/dryer compartment.  I chose to go with Victron batteries and to put them in this location based on this Technomadia post Technomadia - Lithium Update which suggested that the lack of heat regulation and insufficient charge balance were the probable causes of his home-made lithium battery bank showing more wear than expected after 3 and a half years.  Mine are in a mostly climate controlled space, and take advantage of Victron's tight integration to monitor and balance the batteries as well as possible.  And it sure was nice this past summer when driveway surfing not to have to worry about running the air conditioner on just 15 Amp shore power!  I'm sure it's not to everyone's taste, but when my intent is to cover ground while still working, I have been known to boondock during the day while working, and travel a few hours at a time after work, going without hookups for days at a time and running the generator for perhaps a couple of hours every few days if it gets cloudy or I decide to splurge on electricity.

I never worried about where the equipment was made.  Maybe I'm seriously naive?  But one thing I do know is that we all drive cars and use computers, cell phones, tablets, networking equipment, rely upon medical devices and equipment - all of which are either manufactured or contain components that are manufactured all over the world - China, India, Malaysia, Macao, Singapore, Taiwan, Japan, Korea, Mexico, Brazil...  But surely I must be missing *something*.  Obviously I'm not "in the know" since I don't believe that technology manufactured "elsewhere" must be inferior.  (What about cars manufactured in the US in the 70s and 80s?) I'll have to pause and reflect the next time I board a JetBlue Embraer Jet Designed And Manufactured In Brazil  Opinions and speculation are all good.  Problems arise when we confuse them with actual facts.

I don't know whose inverters are better.  The answer will depend an awful lot on who you ask.  I doubt very much the question will be answered with certainty - here or anywhere else.  Check back in 20 years or so.
I guess you wired your victron so it used pass through and used battery to assist when running ac on 15 amps shore power? Agree country of manufacture is not really a factor.
Jim C.
coachfree, previous 1997, 1999, 2000, and 2003 Foretravels.

Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)

Reply #37
Mine are stacked on on top of the other on the right side of the bed electronics bay

When I replaced my intermittent ATS this Summer I discovered that there were two.  I replaced both of them with a single manual TS (posted elsewhere).  Now I never have to wonder what the d___ thing is up to, and I couldn't be happier.  I never believed in switching things over under load anyway - and now I don't have to worry about losing power either.  In the event I lose my 110 power source, either the Victron will take up the slack - if it's inverting, which it usually is, or if the Victron is in charge-only mode I don't worry because the things that matter to me are already connected to substantial UPSes.  Now I just have to talk to Tim and figure out how to get the Generator auto-start to work again...

Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)

Reply #38
I guess you wired your victron so it used pass through and used battery to assist when running ac on 15 amps shore power? Agree country of manufacture is not really a factor.

Yes - only one air conditioner gets power through the inverter while the other gets power from shore or generator only.  Of course both will run when shore or generator power is available.

Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)

Reply #39
Yes - only one air conditioner gets power through the inverter while the other gets power from shore or generator only.  Of course both will run when shore or generator power is available.
Maybe, I am overthinking this, but if on 15 amp shore power and you lose sp, will inverter take up entire load of ac?
Jim C.
coachfree, previous 1997, 1999, 2000, and 2003 Foretravels.

Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)

Reply #40
Best prices on a Victron 3000VA multiplus as far as I can see are at Bay Marine. I got a discount for being a Forum member and buying a bunch of other stuff and paying by check, no sales tax and shipping was included.  My net would have been close to $1300. And the support of Alan at Bay Marine is worth a lot to me.

Victron MultiPlus 12 Volt / 3000 VA / 120 Amp Pure Sine Wave Inverter/Charger
Roger Engdahl and Susan Green
2001 U320 3610 #5879 (Home2) - 2014 Jeep Cherokee or 2018 F150
Hastings, MN

Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)

Reply #41
Now all we have to do is help John with the original issue.  Someone can start another thread if they want to carry on the inverter vs inverter line.

I split these Victron vs. Magnum, etc., posts out of John's request (and retitled his topic so it indicates it's a Prosine question - hopefully that will keep that one on topic)
Learn every day, but especially from the experiences of others. It's cheaper!  - John C. Bogle

2000 U320 36' non-slide / WildEBeest Rescue
2003 U320