Both sets of batteries are dead - solar charge?

Topic: Both sets of batteries are dead - solar charge? (Read 2846 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Both sets of batteries are dead - solar charge?

Reply #25 – February 18, 2018, 05:36:36 pm

Quote from: Pamela & Mike – January 19, 2018, 08:46:38 pm

You will have to check the various petcocks (at least 2) for air in the system. You should have 1 near the top radiator hose where it enters the remote radiator. The other will be on the thermostat housing. Just pulling the radiator cap will only show you part of the system.

Pamela & Mike

You were A+ Spot on!

I went to the motorhome today (with a portable generator) and started work on the power situation. I was able to get the generator back started. I checked the electric fan and it was blowing fine. I checked for the two petcocks. The upper one by the thermostat housing was blowing steam. The air never really bled out so I shut the generator down and pulled it out. The radiator fluid was also low by 1/2 gallon. I filled the fluid up and started it back up. I bled out both the upper and lower petcocks until fluid came out. BINGO. The generator ran for over 30 minutes without an issue. Generator issue resolved.

NOW I need to get the engine batteries charged up! It is at the storage unit with no access to shore power for overnight charging.

1) Do the engine batteries only charge with the engine alternator?
2) Do the engine batteries not charge at all with the generator running?

Given that I have a portable generator (4,000 watt) and the coach diesel generator as power sources, my thought is to use something like a 100 Amp Charger with Engine Start to charge the engine batteries for a while using one of the generators until I can get the engine running. Thoughts?

Re: Both sets of batteries are dead - solar charge?

Reply #26 – February 18, 2018, 05:58:05 pm

Quote from: ViewRVs – February 18, 2018, 05:36:36 pm

1) Do the engine batteries only charge with the engine alternator?

2) Do the engine batteries not charge at all with the generator running?

1) Correct, unless you turn your boost switch on.

2) Correct, unless you turn your boost switch on.

Easiest method: Run the coach generator, turn boost switch on: BOTH battery banks will be charged by your inverter/charger.

Next easiest: Run the coach generator to charge the coach batteries with your inverter/charger. Plug the separate 100 amp battery charger into a 110V outlet on the coach (which is being powered by your generator) and connect it to the start batteries.

Which way would be quicker depends on the condition of your coach batteries when you start, and on what size inverter/charger you have.

Re: Both sets of batteries are dead - solar charge?

Reply #27 – February 18, 2018, 06:05:34 pm

This may be a stupid question but I'll ask anyway.

How long can you leave the Boost button on? Seconds? Minutes? Hours?

Re: Both sets of batteries are dead - solar charge?

Reply #28 – February 18, 2018, 06:34:53 pm

Quote from: ViewRVs – February 18, 2018, 06:05:34 pm

How long can you leave the Boost button on? Seconds? Minutes? Hours?

IF it is a "continuous duty" rated solenoid, and rated for sufficient amperage (about 200A is normal), then theoretically I suppose there is no time limit. The solenoid does generate heat when left on for extended periods, so most members try to find other ways to accomplish the same task.

This is a good one for use as a BOOST solenoid, or as a AUX START solenoid:

Amazon.com: Cole Hersee 24213 12V 200A Continuous Solenoid: Automotive

As an Amazon Associate Foretravel Owners' Forum earns from qualifying purchases.

Re: Both sets of batteries are dead - solar charge?

Reply #29 – February 18, 2018, 11:01:09 pm

Since it's continuous duty, there should be no problem leaving it on for hours if necessary. It does use a fair amount of juice, enough to get hot to the touch after a while. That's why they fail and some replace with the solid state solenoids.

Improper use would be to leave it on while on shore power to charge both batteries over a period of time. If you lost shore power, the current used by the boost solenoid would flatten and ruin both sets of batteries someone was not there to monitor it.

Pierce

Re: Both sets of batteries are dead - solar charge?

Reply #30 – February 18, 2018, 11:52:08 pm

Unfortunately fully dead batteries normally are not long term reuseable.

We dry camp as an option without thought and low battery capacity does not help that.

Hard to monitor the electrical systems performance and any issues without known good batteries.

Re: Both sets of batteries are dead - solar charge?

Reply #31 – February 19, 2018, 09:28:27 am

many use a Trik - l Start or Echo Charger to keep Chassis batteries up IF plugged into shore power while in storage and Charger/Inverter is keeping your House batteries charger

Sadly, if modern AGM batteries are deeply discharged and left in that condition for very long, they usually will need to be replaced to obtain satisfactory performance.

if outside and not under cover 200Watts of solar charging your chassis battery and a trik - l -start will keep things up if no loads (other than parasitic) are present in storage

A lot of prior posts on these topics are available via the "Search" function on the forum home page

Tim Fiedler

Sure Start Soft Start

TCER Direct generator-gas-prod 630 240-9139
Gen-Pro

Re: Both sets of batteries are dead - solar charge?

Reply #32 – February 19, 2018, 09:59:33 am

Another issue not mentioned here is with leaving the boost switch on for long periods such as days. This can damage the start battery's. This happens when the engine battery's reach full charge,but the house battery's being deep cycles have not. The inverter/charger doesn't know this is happening, so it continues to charge, over charging the start battery's.
Tim's idea of a separate charger for the house battery's is a great idea. Using the boost switch for short periods would still be OK. How long? I would be careful.
Chris

Re: Both sets of batteries are dead - solar charge?

Reply #33 – February 19, 2018, 10:08:07 am

One more question:

Should I be able to leave the unit in storage for 1-3 months without unreasonable battery drain or do these units really need to remain plugged in? What is a reasonable expectation?

I think I left the leveling on which may have drained the engine batteries. Once I shut off the ignition, is there anything that drains the engine battery? I know I drained the house batteries by accidentally leaving a light on and I failed to flip the main power disconnect switch. The other thing that hurt my situation was the generator issue that left me no able to recharge the house batteries.

Re: Both sets of batteries are dead - solar charge?

Reply #34 – February 19, 2018, 10:16:37 am

If you do get a seperate charger for the engine batteries get one designed for AGM batteries.

Re: Both sets of batteries are dead - solar charge?

Reply #35 – February 19, 2018, 10:17:01 am

My only cure for drain was to install battery cutoffs on both house and chassis battery negative ground cables, salesman switch was not enough to prevent drain. Since that installation, no drain, batteries stay full.

Both house and chassis are AGM, problem is not their drawing down, problem is parasitic drain. If plugged in, that is a different story, and I do not need to disconnect ground. I store mine not plugged in, thus the ground disconnects.

Re: Both sets of batteries are dead - solar charge?

Reply #36 – February 19, 2018, 10:18:31 am

Quote from: gracerace – February 19, 2018, 09:59:33 am

Another issue not mentioned here is with leaving the boost switch on for long periods such as days. This can damage the start battery's. This happens when the engine battery's reach full charge,but the house battery's being deep cycles have not. The inverter/charger doesn't know this is happening, so it continues to charge, over charging the start battery's.
Tom's idea of a separate charger for the house battery's is a great idea. Using the boost switch for short periods would still be OK. How long? I would be careful.
Chris

My lighter plug to lighter plug jumper keeps both batteries at a little over 13V by utilizing the stock charger. They are two different types of batteries but the voltage works for both. I also have a trickle charger I can also use with the voltage staying in the 13.1V to 13.2V range. I like to keep the stock charger on as it's easy to keep the rest of the coach "hot" when I want to escape the house and watch TV or turn on the AC. You do have to monitor the OEM chargers output with voltmeters in case it tries to overcharge the batteries. The OEM charger has been faultless in nine years of ownership.

No, you need to remove the ground cable on both sets of batteries. The AGMs may go a year without losing voltage but the conventional type may discharge in a month or so in summer weather. Conventional batteries will go all winter if fully charged but warm weather is another story. Diehard batteries had a commercial where the battery was frozen in a block of ice all winter and started the car fine. Remember, when some of these batteries go flat, there is no way to save them and that can be a really expensive mistake. And no, the salesman's switch won't do the trick.

Check online for the battery manufacturer's recommended float/maintenance voltage. It will be posted.

Pierce

Re: Both sets of batteries are dead - solar charge?

Reply #37 – February 19, 2018, 10:37:40 am

If you disconnect the batteries they will be fine for 1-3 months if left in fully charged state - without a physical disconnect, the parasitic loads (engine and transmission computers, radio, clocks, leveling system, aux pump, etc.) will run down batteries within a few weeks.

most of us are either plugged into a 15 amp circuit or better, or have solar to protect batteries and not have to disconnect when storing

MANY threads available via search this topic - lots of anecdotes and good advice

Tim Fiedler

Sure Start Soft Start

TCER Direct generator-gas-prod 630 240-9139
Gen-Pro

Re: Both sets of batteries are dead - solar charge?

Reply #38 – February 19, 2018, 12:01:52 pm

Now that your generator works, you probably need to leave it running with the boost switch on overnight to charge your start batteries. It takes a LONG time to get a charge back into totally dead lead acids, they may never recover 100% but its worth trying since you have some pricey and fairly new batteries.

I would do a 5 hour charge every week with a portable generator when I had my rv stored without power, but I now have 50 amp service as well as a yandina smart boost solenoid which keeps everythig fully charged and ready to go.

The above comment about start batteries being overcharged because house are deep cycle makes no sense to me. All lead acids regardless of deep cycle or start are very close in voltages and it is highly unlikely the inverter charger in your rv is fine tuned to eithers exact preferences. At this point being totally dead is doing far more damage than possible overcharging which is unlikely, even over 12-24hrs.

Re: Both sets of batteries are dead - solar charge?

Reply #39 – February 19, 2018, 12:53:55 pm

Quote from: RvTrvlr – February 19, 2018, 12:01:52 pm

The above comment about start batteries being overcharged because house are deep cycle makes no sense to me. All lead acids regardless of deep cycle or start are very close in voltages and it is highly unlikely the inverter charger in your rv is fine tuned to eithers exact preferences. At this point being totally dead is doing far more damage than possible overcharging which is unlikely, even over 12-24hrs.

Per Interstate at Foretravel tech school
More battery bank , requires more charging, less battery bank requires less. If a battery reaches full charge, and another battery (s) are hooked parallel to it, which are not fully charged, the source charging it, will continue to charge all of them. This will over charge the battery that is full.

Deep cycles take pretty much all you can throw at them, but start battery's charge up more quickly.

In general, paralleling batteries is a terrible idea, but it is what RV manufactures do. Why is it a terrible idea? One bad cell in one battery can cause the entire bank to completely discharge. Or fool the charger into thinking the batteries are discharged which pumps lots of current into the banks which causes gassing. I can't tell you how many times I have seen this.

Always replace a bad battery in a bank of multiple's, with all new battery's

And yes, a fully discharged battery is bad, especially when it sits for any period of time dead. It also makes it susceptible to freezing, which can split the battery open.

Re: Both sets of batteries are dead - solar charge?

Reply #40 – February 19, 2018, 01:37:17 pm

All good info here. Mostly acquired at considerable expense.

My understanding is that most if not all newer coaches have went to the auto combiner and some kind of solar system to fix these charging issues,

My question to my buddy about charging my red tops and mk gels with the same voltage input is that while not technically exactly perfect it should be not noticeable in normal use.

More issues using non temp controlled alternators.

The 270 watt solar we have does have enough output even with flat mounted panels on the roof and the lower sun angle during winter to have the auto combiner connect during charging from any source and auto disconnect with no charging input.

I know of no other way to set up a system to charge both battery banks outdoors to do this.

My comments to my customers 30 years ago was to plug the coach into a interval timer where the power would come on every third day or so and jump the battery's together manually while in interior storage.

I contacted the original solar company in 1986 and started equipping every coach I,sold with a small 32 watt panel.

Had a mounting bracket made where the panel could be rotated a bit.

Much lower parasitic loses back then.

The auto connect and a timer of some kind should work on indoor storage I would think.

I Bought an ME-ARC50 controller for a possible future use as its programming is adjustable as far as how much the batteries state of charge can drop before the charger comes on.

Std is 80% on the rc50 and default on the arc50.

The arc50 can be adjusted up to 99% cut in to avoid cycling the batteries unnecessarily.

The non power consuming auto connect and disconnect combiner seems to be the best way of solving these issues and the industry has changed to these systems as far as I am told.

Temp controller inverter/ Charger, temp controlled alternator output, auto combiner seem to be the best possible system to my research.

If using agms I would not hesitate to buy the equalizeable lifelines and the magnum SW 2812 or the SW 3012 if you wanted the hybrid design as they have the internal programming to equalize the lifelines.

I see in the Foretravel plant videos that the new coaches have 6 gel batteries. I would bet they use a battery temp controlled alternator and a auto combiner.

The extra cost of the mods can come back in better battery life and longer, higher capacity use...

Was tired of band aid fixes after 32 years or having inconsistent results.

If the batteries are kept better charged the engine delivers slightly better mpg during a drive I assume as the 7 to 10 hp the alternator draws is removed.

My thoughts are the solar input while driving kicks off the alternator?

My alternator and solar are both 13.6 volts as a compromise due to no temp compensation on either of those systems.

I wanted an automatic system that did not require any attention

Re: Both sets of batteries are dead - solar charge?

Reply #41 – February 19, 2018, 02:34:49 pm

Quote from: gracerace – February 19, 2018, 12:53:55 pm

In general, paralleling batteries is a terrible idea, but it is what RV manufactures do. Why is it a terrible idea? One bad cell in one battery can cause the entire bank to completely discharge.

Agree with most you have posted but paralleling is about all you can do to get the capacity. One 8D was not enough for either the engine (plus no where to put it) or the house so I went with Foretravel's 3 engine batteries arrangement. For the house, I got a deal on 6 AGMs so I enlarged the racks to fit them. I did get a bad cell almost 9 years out on one engine battery but the AGMs have been flawless. If you watch the respective voltages, you can catch the problem before it becomes worse. Deep cycle AGMs are usually very trouble free. And yes, one engine battery goes bad then you should change them all out. But at $300 for all three HD batteries nine years later, it's just a normal cost of owning a motorhome.

If you buy three engine batteries at a time, you should get a discount. I did and they gave me an additional 10%.

Pierce

Re: Both sets of batteries are dead - solar charge?

Reply #42 – February 19, 2018, 03:26:31 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – February 19, 2018, 02:34:49 pm

Agree with most you have posted but paralleling is about all you can do to get the capacity. One 8D was not enough for either the engine (plus no where to put it) or the house so I went with Foretravel's 3 engine batteries arrangement. For the house, I got a deal on 6 AGMs so I enlarged the racks to fit them. I did get a bad cell almost 9 years out on one engine battery but the AGMs have been flawless. If you watch the respective voltages, you can catch the problem before it becomes worse. Deep cycle AGMs are usually very trouble free. And yes, one engine battery goes bad then you should change them all out. But at $300 for all three HD batteries nine years later, it's just a normal cost of owning a motorhome.

If you buy three engine batteries at a time, you should get a discount. I did and they gave me an additional 10%.

Pierce

Yup, One of the best parts of working for Foretravel back in the day. When we replaced one bad red top, we were allowed to keep the old ones, just pay the core charge. Normally the other 2 were great for the race cars (by the way, I run two red tops in my drag car 15.5:1 compression)

I had that same drama last year. For the start battery, PO installed one 8D, instead of the 3 red tops. It would start, but needed the boost switch 1/2 the time. Did all the checks (load test, voltage check while turning over the engine), cleaned everything. Everything said it was all happy.

I was ready to pull the starter out. Then I decided to do a hydrometer test. Sure enough my one 8D had a bad cell. Popped in two group 31's. I can now drive the coach on the starter!

My last coach had 600 watts solar with two banks of two 6 volt deep cycles , separated with a boat switch. I could turn the coach on and off, or separate or charge the banks together. It worked awesome, because I lost a cell in one bank during sub zero weather on our way to California. So I just switched the bad bank out of the system. At that point I could charge the other bank up for heat, replacing the batts when we got to warmer weather.

That was a great price on your AGM's

Sorry I got off track, but important info, great discussion.

Cheers Chris

Re: Both sets of batteries are dead - solar charge?

Reply #43 – February 19, 2018, 05:05:23 pm

Two banks of different capacity (huge deep cycles and small starts, for example) will not overcharge the small batteries. If the connections are equal, the current will favor the deeper discharged batteries and they will all come up together and balance out. Of course this isnt perfect, but if you understand electricity you know it always takes the path of least resistance and that means itll charge the dead batteries first and in extreme cases the charge from starts could flow into the house batteries.

I use a Yandina combiner which means my batteries are all paralleled together anytime they are over 13 volts. As soon as any bank drops, it seperates them. Been rolling this way for three years and have never had a dead battery or a bad battery. Have never used the boost switch either. It works really well. When camping the inverter keeps both banks charged. When driving the engine alternator keeps both banks charged. Beats echo chargers and all the other stuff out there!

Re: Both sets of batteries are dead - solar charge?

Reply #44 – February 19, 2018, 06:31:33 pm

Quote from: RvTrvlr – February 19, 2018, 05:05:23 pm

Two banks of different capacity (huge deep cycles and small starts, for example) will not overcharge the small batteries. If the connections are equal, the current will favor the deeper discharged batteries and they will all come up together and balance out. Of course this isnt perfect, but if you understand electricity you know it always takes the path of least resistance and that means itll charge the dead batteries first and in extreme cases the charge from starts could flow into the house batteries.

I use a Yandina combiner which means my batteries are all paralleled together anytime they are over 13 volts. As soon as any bank drops, it seperates them. Been rolling this way for three years and have never had a dead battery or a bad battery. Have never used the boost switch either. It works really well. When camping the inverter keeps both banks charged. When driving the engine alternator keeps both banks charged. Beats echo chargers and all the other stuff out there!

I agree the combiner is the way to go. That is why many current manufactures use this type of system. Our older coaches don't share this luxury , unless one adds it.

All I can say is, I have switched out many over charged start batteries due to customers leaving the boost switch on, 24/7 In FT's, and several old Winnie's.

Here is a good read about mixing battery's: written by Optima. They also came to Foretravel tech school when I attend. It states exactly what I previously posted

Can I Connect Dissimilar Batteries in Parallel?

Our coach is stored in my shop when not in use. I keep it plugged in 24/7. But weekly, I monitor the battery voltage, turning the charger on and off manually for a few days.I have done this with every coach I have owned. We have never had a over charged battery. Start or house

I do the same with the boost switch. 24 hours max......I guess I am old school.

Cheers Chris

Re: Both sets of batteries are dead - solar charge?

Reply #45 – February 19, 2018, 06:40:30 pm

Chris does your coach have the original heart inverter?

Re: Both sets of batteries are dead - solar charge?

Reply #46 – February 20, 2018, 09:30:03 am

Yup Bob, old school. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.....PO had it updated once. Had the dreaded smack it, to get it charging bad board!

Re: Both sets of batteries are dead - solar charge?

Reply #47 – February 20, 2018, 12:50:30 pm

The non sine wave freedom 25 with a serial number before 100,000 does not have provision for a battery temp sensor,

Serious drawback on top of the Partial sine wave output. The chargers output voltage can be manually adjusted as temps change of course but I doubt most would do that step.

My freedom 25's output current along with several others here was limited to around 70 amps max as the internal contacters get pitted from use according to my inverter man.

That required much more gen run time to recharge costing me $1-$2 an hour in fuel to run the gen. Plus the noise and smells.

The newer unit (ms-2812) varies the voltage with a BTMS to not overcharge at hot weather and undercharge at cold weather the batteries.

Plus the full wave power makes any appliance hooked to it work better of course.

The freedoms internal wiring connections and boards loosen and corrode respectively which is evidenced by your use of manual persuasion to restore its function.

I hesitated to replace mine but after changing it out the reduced gen run time, better power and correct charging profile were the tipping point I should have noted and acted upon sooner.

The combiner was the other big part of the system. Finally fixed issues I have been working around since 1984

Re: Both sets of batteries are dead - solar charge?

Reply #48 – February 20, 2018, 04:51:03 pm

Quote from: Caflashbob – February 20, 2018, 12:50:30 pm

The non sine wave freedom 25 with a serial number before 100,000 does not have provision for a battery temp sensor,

Serious drawback on top of the Partial sine wave output. The chargers output voltage can be manually adjusted as temps change of course but I doubt most would do that step.

My freedom 25's output current along with several others here was limited to around 70 amps max as the internal contacters get pitted from use according to my inverter man.

That required much more gen run time to recharge costing me $1-$2 an hour in fuel to run the gen. Plus the noise and smells.

The newer unit (ms-2812) varies the voltage with a BTMS to not overcharge at hot weather and undercharge at cold weather the batteries.

Plus the full wave power makes any appliance hooked to it work better of course.

The freedoms internal wiring connections and boards loosen and corrode respectively which is evidenced by your use of manual persuasion to restore its function.

I hesitated to replace mine but after changing it out the reduced gen run time, better power and correct charging profile were the tipping point I should have noted and acted upon sooner.

The combiner was the other big part of the system. Finally fixed issues I have been working around since 1984

Prosine inverter's were/are awesome. Got a free take out, when someone hooked their coach to 220. All it did was blow a cap inside. 25 cent fixed. Put it in my camper for a few years. Then sold it on Ebay for a grand!

We don't have to wack our inverter, it charges fine. PO had that issue. But I have seen many that do that, taken out many also. As a tech, always got those free too.. They still made great inverters, put one in my race car trailer with one 8D. Just add an inexpensive converter/charger to solve the charge issue.Or put it in a camper that has a charger, but no inverter

Actually, I rarely turn our inverter on. I installed a 300 watt pure sine wave in the overhead, leave it on 24/7 for the sat and tivo.
We have 700 watts solar.

Run the gen for coffee, blow drier, and curling iron in the morning for the wife. Therefore the batts don't take such a big hit.

Chris

Re: Both sets of batteries are dead - solar charge?

Reply #49 – March 01, 2018, 09:19:39 pm

I still cannot get the engine to fire up. Initially, I charged up all three batteries together in the coach with a stand alone charger as well as the generator and boost mode. The batteries did charge but not enough to start the engine. After that, I took the three batteries out of the coach and had them tested at Autozone. All three checked out OK but were only at 85% charge. I spent two days charging the batteries individually with a Schumacher charger with an AGM mode. All three batteries charged up to 12.7 volts after some time on the charger.

I reinstalled the batteries tonight. Still no luck. They still test at 12.7 volts at the post that combines all three batteries. The dash lights don't come on unless I use the boost button. Is there a solenoid, relay, or or fuse that could be bad? I would think the starter but that would not explain why the dash lights are not coming active. The engine does not turn over and I don't hear a clicking noise from the starter.

I still have something draining the house battery. I had it charged up on Tuesday and flipped the main disconnect by the steps when I left. When on Thursday, there was not enough power the get the on-board generator to start. Either the house batteries are bad or something is seriously draining them. This is really secondary to the engine not running!

The ONLY good thing is that the diesel generator is running fine with a full tank of coolant!

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