Choice of Antifreeze/Coolant

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Choice of Antifreeze/Coolant

July 20, 2018, 10:54:19 am

After receiving several PMs concerning the choice of antifreeze for our coaches, I thought I would chime in with some information.

As our coach as a brass radiator with copper and solder, I use a IAT aka Inorganic Acid Technology (the green stuff) as it will protect the radiator better than OAT or HOAT coolants. It does have a shorter life and is recommended to be changed every three years. While the newer OAT coolant provide some added brass/copper protection, radiators with solder are still at risk. The same goes for heater cores. Does Aqua Hot have any solder in the heat exchanger?

I called Detroit Diesel in Sacramento a couple of years ago and asked them what they recommended. The foreman's answer was "anything green."

This is a complex subject but this link may help clarify it. What are the Different Types of Antifreeze and Can I Mix Them?

For a little more technical answer: Coolant Confusion: It's Not Easy Being Green ... or Yellow or Orange or ......

Pierce

Re: Choice of Antifreeze/Coolant

Reply #1 – July 20, 2018, 11:38:44 am

Thanks. The Cummins service center told me that my combo should be the green stuff. I've been terribly confused by all the comments about antifreeze. The counter staff at the parts store look at me like I'm an idiot when I buy the green stuff for my motor home. Same thing with the motor oil for the hydraulic system, but the label on my reserve tank is quite clear about that and so is the manual.

Re: Choice of Antifreeze/Coolant

Reply #2 – July 20, 2018, 11:44:50 am

For many, many years Foretravels have come with the new generation long-life coolant.

Cummins and Caterpillar both sell the long life coolant.

Wonder how many parts guys are chemists??? Wonder how many of them know more than the engineers at Cummins and Caterpillar???

Re: Choice of Antifreeze/Coolant

Reply #3 – July 20, 2018, 12:10:37 pm

Would go by what the manual says for a new unit,but for our older coaches most of the new coolants were not around when the
manual was written,in my mind that takes the manual out of the equation.When changing ours I researched and came up with
the ES compleat Oat (red),went to the Cummins dealer in SanAntonio and tried to buy it and the parts counter gal insisted that
they only use the green and did'nt have any red,eventually found it at a Fleetguard store.
Anyone who is considering doing a change yourself,research and follow Brett's procedure,if your having a shop do it I would
find out what they call flushing,and have them do it according to Brett's procedure or find another shop.

Re: Choice of Antifreeze/Coolant

Reply #4 – July 20, 2018, 12:27:35 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – July 20, 2018, 11:44:50 am

For many, many years Foretravels have come with the new generation long-life coolant.
Cummins and Caterpillar both sell the long life coolant.
Wonder how many parts guys are chemists??? Wonder how many of them know more than the engineers at Cummins and Caterpillar???

Brett,

This is not some much about our engines but the relationship between the brass, copper and the solder that holds our radiators and heater cores together. The engineers at CAT and Cummins may be experts on their engines but how about the rest of the cooling system? Do they have any input in the vehicles cooling system their engines are installed in? Anything I have read seems to indicate that OAT and HOAT coolants don't belong with yellow metals or solder. While Detroit may recommend their long life coolant, the Detroit Diesel headquarters in Sacramento seemed to be thinking about the total big rig cooling system picture with their big brass/copper radiators when they recommended only the green stuff.

Foretravel also put Roloks in the bulkhead, etc. Their radiators may be contain different materials now compared to the older coaches.

I know some GM products have had a lot of head gasket leakage. One of the linked articles seems to possibly associate the leakage to the coolant used.

Three year lifespan vs five years is not that big of a deal to me. Our coach has been all green and the radiator is still like new.

Pierce

Re: Choice of Antifreeze/Coolant

Reply #5 – July 20, 2018, 12:34:59 pm

Our manual for our 1989 DD 8.2 turdo charged V8 states: Use antifreeze, ethylene glycol, with a rust inhibitor additive--in one paragraph.
Another location on the same page says: Ethylene glycol, permanent type anti-freeze, is standard solution.

Current color of our antifreeze is green. 27 Qts capacity radiator. Engine (Detroit 8.2) capacity is 12-1/2 Qts.
This adds up to 39-1/2 Qts total.
(3208 Cat has 26 Qts engine capacity--per my manual)
Now, what is the current recommendation for anti-freeze?

Re: Choice of Antifreeze/Coolant

Reply #6 – July 20, 2018, 12:52:47 pm

Please see: Features And Benefits

Re: Choice of Antifreeze/Coolant

Reply #7 – July 20, 2018, 12:56:28 pm

Agree with Pierce on his posts,especially for the Detroits,on the Cummins I would go with the one with the best protection for
the cavitation of the engine liners,that taking presidence over the other components,just an opinion.

Re: Choice of Antifreeze/Coolant

Reply #8 – July 20, 2018, 01:08:06 pm

I'm using ES Compleat OAT in our coach, based on the past recommendations on this Forum. I see nothing in the Fleetguard info that would make me question that choice. They claim all of their ethylene glycol blends protect solder from corrosion. See below:

https://www.cumminsfiltration.com/sites/default/files/LT36237.compressed_0.pdf

Re: Choice of Antifreeze/Coolant

Reply #9 – July 20, 2018, 01:16:20 pm

This is DIRECTLY from Cummins, regardless of color. Has nothing to do with the radiator, however. I see Pierce's point.

Cummins Engine coolant specifications
The antifreeze or coolant must meet Cummins Engineering Specification (CES) 14603 and also meet the specifications outlined in The Maintenance Council (TMC), Recommended Practice (RP) 329 (ethylene glycol) or RP 330 (propylene glycol). This coolant is the same coolant required for Cummins diesel engines.Oct 10, 2009.

If it has this on the back of the jug it is good. The tech told me "any color".

Re: Choice of Antifreeze/Coolant

Reply #10 – July 20, 2018, 01:40:22 pm

So, does anyone have information to suggest that Foretravel uses radiators made of different material than the huge number of OTR trucks?

What about the Foretravel engineers who speced Texaco ELC for their coaches since the late 1990's?

Someone might contact Atlas who made most of Foretravel radiators for their "opinion". This contact info is over a decade old but may still be good: 12. Atlas Radiator: 824 N Chaparral St, Corpus Christi, TX, 78401-2027, Phone: 361-882-5661

Re: Choice of Antifreeze/Coolant

Reply #11 – July 21, 2018, 07:36:58 pm

Pierce, what brand and "model" antifreeze do you recommend? I'd really like to have something that is readily available (as in I walk into an auto parts store, go to the antifreeze section, and buy a gallon). I'm going to have our radiator flushed this winter (at FOT) and I'd like to be able to tell them to put in ABC brand GHI "model" antifreeze.

Re: Choice of Antifreeze/Coolant

Reply #12 – July 22, 2018, 10:18:10 am

David,

What kind of coolant did your new engine come with?

Ours came with green IAT antifreeze so when I came to replace it, I looked it up but was still not sure so called Detroit Diesel in Sacramento. They didn't recommend OAT or HOAT and said any kind of green was what they put in. In reviewing the sites I linked to, it seemed the advantage to the green was in the rest of the cooling system and not the engine. I did have the solder eat away on the neck of the pressure cap fitting and had to re-solder it.

I do see some OAT and HOAT manufactures state that their products have additives that prevent corrosion of brass and copper but I never have seen one boast about additives for solder. Since our radiator is in great shape, I will go with green again this time (and naturally distilled water). So, I guess the question is are the statements I linked to obsolete information or does the other coolants protect the brass/copper/solder that our radiators are constructed of. Other question might be are the newer radiators constructed differently from those in the '89s/90s?

Now looking for a IAT green coolant that's on sale. Don't like to change it every three years but...

Pierce

Re: Choice of Antifreeze/Coolant

Reply #13 – July 22, 2018, 10:28:44 am

David,it surely would'nt hurt but what did they reccomend when they rebuilt your engine?,assuming they flushed it then just
thinking you may be flushing too soon.

Re: Choice of Antifreeze/Coolant

Reply #14 – July 22, 2018, 10:58:01 am

I also went to the Detroit dealer in Billings they worked on all our big pump trucks from the oil patch and they said the same thing anything that's green and this guy has 40 years work experience on two strokes. So thats what I put in ours

Re: Choice of Antifreeze/Coolant

Reply #15 – July 22, 2018, 11:47:05 am

Brett that is the correct # for Atlas. As far as green coolant goes that was the latest technology when those engines where built, so that's what should be run in them. However as Brett said FT put thenew stuff in later 90s coaches, and Cat and Cummins sell it. IMHO any coolant will be fine as long as it is maintained according to the specs.

Re: Choice of Antifreeze/Coolant

Reply #16 – July 22, 2018, 01:27:42 pm

Quote from: bbeane – July 22, 2018, 11:47:05 am

IMHO any coolant will be fine as long as it is maintained according to the specs.

Totally agree.

But, the issue I have is that the majority of coaches I inspect (not just Foretravel) with the old "with SCA" coolants do not have their SCA concentration checked and adjusted annually. We used to check every coach at the Diesel RV Club Rallies-- so I base this on FACT, not speculation-- have tested over 500 cooling systems over the last decade. Yes, even ran into more than a few who had "regular" Prestone in there. Kind of hard on cylinder liners!

Not so much a $$ issue, as the fact that very few motorhome owners know it has to be done. One of the few places where you can not (or at least should not) buy exactly the same coolant filter as came off. You may need more SCA or none-- the filters are available with a range of SCA from zero to 16 units. NOT interchangeable.

For those who don't mind doing the annual SCA/pH/freeze point check (takes 2 minutes) and THEN buying the correct filter (depending on how much SCA is needed) the "green stuff" is just fine.

But, as soon as you run into an owner who has to pay labor (doesn't do their own work) and likely does not test the coolant, the much longer life (more than 2X) makes that a reasonable choice.

Re: Choice of Antifreeze/Coolant

Reply #17 – July 22, 2018, 03:48:21 pm

When the engine was rebuilt the shop put in Detroit Diesel brand coolant. I've never seen that at an auto parts store, and I'd really like to be able to buy a gallon easily whenever I need to get some.

Related question: Does the generator use the same coolant as the Detroit? That would be ideal, but I'm willing to carry a gallon of each if I have to.

Re: Choice of Antifreeze/Coolant

Reply #18 – July 22, 2018, 05:04:52 pm

Short answer is, YES. Any coolant acceptable in your engine is OK for the generator.

Some generator/engine manufacturers may have preferences, but if it is good enough for a DD, Cat or Cummins, it is good for a Kubota, Isuzu, etc.

Re: Choice of Antifreeze/Coolant

Reply #19 – July 22, 2018, 06:25:28 pm

I'm just glad to have a air cooled gen set and a label for my CAT:

Re: Choice of Antifreeze/Coolant

Reply #20 – July 23, 2018, 12:05:58 am

Quote from: wolfe10 – July 22, 2018, 01:27:42 pm

You may need more SCA or none-- the filters are available with a range of SCA from zero to 16 units. NOT interchangeable.

It is unfortunate that Cummins/Fleetguard has published a huge amount of ambiguous, conflicting info on coolants.Their ever changing product lines add to the confusion. The issue of adding SCA is a case in point, I run Es Compleat ethylene glycol Extended Life Coolant. It is not ES Compleat ethylene glycol Extended Life OAT. I monitor SCA levels, when they start falling I simply add liquid SCA per the test chart. This stuff is dirt cheap and readily available. Now, at this point, you need to break out the Ouija board to learn exactly which Fleetguard filter you should install because Cummins is unable to make any kind of recommendation.

I had a great conversation with a Penray chemist. Interesting guy, gearhead. Penray makes all the components used to blend antifreeze (I believe the largest producer of these products in the US) and sells them to blenders who sell private label antifreeze. This includes SCAs, acids, glycol etc. Here are some of the points he made:

It isn't coolant, it's antifreeze. None of the blends you can buy are as effective as straight distilled water at cooling. That's why Nascar cars run pure water.

If you aren't concerned with freeze protection just skip the ethylene glycol and run distilled water with SCA added to bring it to spec for your Cummins. That'll cool it best, provide cavitation protection, and pose no disposal problems.

Based on this info I strongly suspect there is nothing wrong with running "green" antifreeze but you need to add SCA's to spec if they are not present and you are running a engine with liners. YMMV.

Re: Choice of Antifreeze/Coolant

Reply #21 – July 23, 2018, 02:31:12 am

This is the second rv I've run the ES Compleat™ OAT which is their only one with, thank goodness, the visual red color. I find their literature very helpful and so I've attached https://www.cumminsfiltration.com/sites/default/files/LT32599_09_0.pdf

As far as filters, I've also found their literature helpful along with cross references available from other filter brands, and yes, if you switch to OAT or have OAT you will want the none SCA filter. FleetguardFIT™ | Cummins Filtration

As doctors can prescribe conflicting medications, many rv and associated experts can recommend incorrect coolant and filters. I always double check any advice (both written, Googled, and given in person), before acting on any advice. I am ultimately the one responsible. And yes, Chuck, I agree a good technical writer could write a simpler assortment of publications. For the little more cost, I prefer using XL (extended life filters) and check my oil each year with Blackstone. Blackstone Labs

For a over view of coolent and filters some may find this useful. Diesel Engine Coolants For Motorhomes - RV Tech - RV Magazine

Re: Choice of Antifreeze/Coolant

Reply #22 – July 23, 2018, 05:19:25 am

We use the Fleetgard compleat Oat also,Napa stocks 2 different size filters,one small one larger,the larger one fits on the 8.3 so we
use it.

Re: Choice of Antifreeze/Coolant

Reply #23 – July 23, 2018, 12:45:39 pm

Quote from: Chuck Pearson – July 23, 2018, 12:05:58 am

It is unfortunate that Cummins/Fleetguard has published a huge amount of ambiguous, conflicting info on coolants. Here are some of the points he made:
It isn't coolant, it's antifreeze. None of the blends you can buy are as effective as straight distilled water at cooling. That's why Nascar cars run pure water.
Based on this info I strongly suspect there is nothing wrong with running "green" antifreeze but you need to add SCA's to spec if they are not present and you are running a engine with liners. YMMV.

Yes, we ran nothing but water in the race car. It works well plus antifreeze is as bad as oil if it gets on the track and does not evaporate like water. Every race car that overheats would be like a blown up engine.

In thinking about the Detroit Diesel recommendation for green antifreeze, it may have to do with the aftercooler that sits under the blower. It has antifreeze circulating through it and Detroit may be worried about the brass/solder construction. As I remember, some CATs have aftercoolers also instead of intercoolers (CAC) .

Pierce

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