3 Days 0ut - Dead in the Water

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3 Days 0ut - Dead in the Water

August 26, 2018, 12:29:18 pm

We finally were able to dewinterize our '92 U225 and go for a shakedown cruise before starting Year 2 on the road. However, beset by problems already. Here is the chronology so far:

Wednesday 8/22: new batteries installed all around. Workaholic for Engine, two yellow top Optimas for house (same ratings as previous batteries)

Thursday 8/23: Set sail 25 miles up the road to Candy Hill Campground in Winchester, VA for a four night stay to include some maintenance work

Friday 8/24: Drove her up to the Cummins shop on the north side of Winchester. New water pump, new fan drive tensioner, new belt, oil change, new fuel filter. Returned to Candy Hill

Saturday 8/25: Noticed house lights dimming late last night. Turned off the salesman switch to minimize any power drain. Did some research and figured it might be a bad power converter (Power Source PC-75)

Today: Checked the battery readings. Engine reads 12.53, House reads 6.76. Disconnected from shorepower and tried to start the generator (propane which uses the engine battery to start). It wouldn't start so tried to start the engine, it wouldn't start either. She makes the usual noise when the key is in the accessory position, and the fuel and volt gauges come on, but when you turn the key to start, nothing.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Deb and Jeff

Re: 3 Days 0ut - Dead in the Water

Reply #1 – August 26, 2018, 12:37:00 pm

In this case, make sure your boost switch is off when trying to start the main engine. Clean the terminals as your new batteries and 12.53 engine battery voltage indicate the batteries are 80 percent or better. Check voltages with shore power plugged in. New battery installation (mis-installation) is probably the cause of your problems. That's my #1 guess. No problems before the battery changeout?

Shore power usually charges only the house batteries. 6.76 is just about dead. Get them charged quickly before damage is done to them.

Pierce

Re: 3 Days 0ut - Dead in the Water

Reply #2 – August 26, 2018, 12:52:54 pm

I would agree with Pierce, check & double check the wiring for all batteries. The Optimas (at least in our coach), are the STARTING BATTERIES and the Lifelines are HOUSE. You should see 13.4/13.7 on fully charged batteries, both start & house. On ours, both sets being AGMs, our monitor shows pretty much the same. Is that brand of battery used (Workaholic) a AGM? Could make a difference.

Re: 3 Days 0ut - Dead in the Water

Reply #3 – August 26, 2018, 12:56:50 pm

Measured the batteries with shore power on, same readings a before, 12.53 on the Engine and 6.76 on the house batteries. The old batteries all died over the winter, but no problems prior to that. Was hoping to get the generator going to charge the House batteries by may have to pull them and take them to Auto Zone.

Any thoughts on why the accessories running off the engine batter will work but she won't turn over?

Appreciate the help very much.

Deb and Jeff

Re: 3 Days 0ut - Dead in the Water

Reply #4 – August 26, 2018, 01:09:15 pm

Mite re-read my post above; I missed the ones in a fully charged battery. Just re-did the post. (Thanks, John!

)
The pic shows what our Optimas show while charging:

Re: 3 Days 0ut - Dead in the Water

Reply #5 – August 26, 2018, 01:19:24 pm

Check that the breaker for the inverter/charger, converter or what ever charges the house batteries has not tripped. Leaving the inverter on without shore power or generator will run down the house batteries, especially if there is a large power draw, such as convection over, etc.

Re: 3 Days 0ut - Dead in the Water

Reply #6 – August 26, 2018, 01:24:56 pm

An option is to jump start the generator using your toad battery-- easy to do in the generator compartment. Just expose the large positive lug on the generator and any piece of metal on generator for ground.

BUT, if your house bank was not charged by shore power, generator will be the same.

That does not explain why the engine won't start with mid 12 VDC chassis battery. What does the dash voltmeter show when you try to start?

Re: 3 Days 0ut - Dead in the Water

Reply #7 – August 26, 2018, 01:25:58 pm

Checked the configuration of the old batteries vs the new installation.

There is a slight difference in how the techs installed the new house batteries (note the red wire is on the right plus terminal in the old configuration and on the left hand plus terminal on the new configuration.

Pictures to follow.

Re: 3 Days 0ut - Dead in the Water

Reply #8 – August 26, 2018, 01:30:12 pm

Brett, on the dash it's reading at the very low end of the green

Re: 3 Days 0ut - Dead in the Water

Reply #9 – August 26, 2018, 01:32:38 pm

The way the yellow batteries are hooked up is electrically OK-- just OK. It is not contributing to your problem.

Better for the positive to come off one battery and the ground off the other-- but that is fine-tuning.

Re: 3 Days 0ut - Dead in the Water

Reply #10 – August 26, 2018, 01:49:23 pm

Just spoke to a rep from Best Converter, he is recommending changing the the converter and thinks there might be a an alternator problem. Any thoughts?

Re: 3 Days 0ut - Dead in the Water

Reply #11 – August 26, 2018, 01:57:04 pm

Quote from: Jeff and Deb – August 26, 2018, 12:29:18 pm

Saturday 8/25: Noticed house lights dimming late last night. Turned off the salesman switch to minimize any power drain. Did some research and figured it might be a bad power converter (Power Source PC-75)

We had a PC-75 converter/charger in our coach when we first bought it, along with a separate Inverter. The PC-75 totally destroyed the 2 flooded cell 8D house batteries that were in the coach, due to over charging them. So I would recommend you upgrade your battery charging device ASAP. I'm also guessing it is the cause of your present problem.

Treat your house batteries to a good modern 4-stage battery charger/convertor, and they will love you for it!

Re: 3 Days 0ut - Dead in the Water

Reply #12 – August 26, 2018, 01:59:20 pm

The alternator doesn't start the engine, the starter and start batteries do. So without the engine running, impossible to tell.
Get rid of that converter and get a real charger.
Not sure why your engine won't start. It it getting fuel? Are you sure it it?
Your house bank is most likely dead now, or new to it. You will most likely have to change the house batteries. They may charge, but unlikely to last long.
Check the specific gravity of each cell with a hydromerter. Make sure the cells are topped off with distilled water.
Check all connections to ensure a good tight connection.
Check that the shore power is getting power to the converter.
Sorry all will cost you money. But sounds like it was coming anyway. Hope you get it straight.

Re: 3 Days 0ut - Dead in the Water

Reply #13 – August 26, 2018, 02:14:25 pm

X2..From your pics, the Optima batteries are the starting batteries :(old were blue tops, yellow tops are the new ones). The big, black ones are the house batteries. I don't know if it makes make any difference, but, as far as I know, you've got the wrong starting batteries; we use these:

Re: 3 Days 0ut - Dead in the Water

Reply #14 – August 26, 2018, 02:18:45 pm

Bob and Julie,

Thanks for the inputs. Fuel shouldn't be a problem. Tank is full and we just had the filters changed. The issue is she won't even turn over. There is obviously some power getting to the instrument panel, but absolutely nothing when trying to start her.

Hoping to get the new converter sent out tomorrow so at least that part will be ok

Re: 3 Days 0ut - Dead in the Water

Reply #15 – August 26, 2018, 02:33:49 pm

Since you've got the description backwards, have you tried to start the gen set off the boost switch?

Re: 3 Days 0ut - Dead in the Water

Reply #16 – August 26, 2018, 02:37:34 pm

Check engine ground and chassis ground wires

Re: 3 Days 0ut - Dead in the Water

Reply #17 – August 26, 2018, 02:38:44 pm

Quote from: Jeff and Deb – August 26, 2018, 01:49:23 pm

Just spoke to a rep from Best Converter, he is recommending changing the the converter and thinks there might be a an alternator problem. Any thoughts?

NEVER my first suspect that two things went out at the same time-- alternator and converter.

Re: 3 Days 0ut - Dead in the Water

Reply #18 – August 26, 2018, 02:39:36 pm

Will try the boost. Where are the ground wires located?

Re: 3 Days 0ut - Dead in the Water

Reply #19 – August 26, 2018, 02:44:02 pm

Mike,

Tried the boost and the generator started.

Re: 3 Days 0ut - Dead in the Water

Reply #20 – August 26, 2018, 02:49:40 pm

Quote from: Jeff and Deb – August 26, 2018, 02:44:02 pm

Mike,

Tried the boost and the generator started.

The gennie takes less juice to start than the the engine, that's why I asked for the GS first.

Re: 3 Days 0ut - Dead in the Water

Reply #21 – August 26, 2018, 02:50:54 pm

As far as the interior lights going dim at night, that would indicate your house batteries are low. Did you put a voltmeter on the house batteries?

Do you hear a click when you plug into shore power? Do you have 110V at your outlets with the inverter off? Does your AC voltmeter indicate about 115 volts? Did you check your 110 circuit breakers? There is a possibility your transfer switch may not be working.

I installed inexpensive 12V voltmeters on the dash next to me so I can check batteries for voltage if at home, on the road, with solar on, shore power, generator, etc. It lets you stay well ahead of the game and can save expensive batteries and avoid being stuck somewhere on the road. Top is house, bottom is engine batteries. This is while parked with solar on and partially discharged batteries in the morning with the solar controller in "bulk" mode.

This still does not explain why your engine won't turn over with good engine batteries.

Pierce

Re: 3 Days 0ut - Dead in the Water

Reply #22 – August 26, 2018, 02:54:50 pm

a couple more things. Cummins also steam cleaned the engine of Friday. When we were looking for possible causes for the battery issues last night we also discovered a panel on the engine had been knocked loose. This is mounted on the wall closest to the bottom of the bed. Couldn't tell you id they did it or the techs who installed some new insulation under the bed last week. No idea if this has any relevance.

Re: 3 Days 0ut - Dead in the Water

Reply #23 – August 26, 2018, 02:56:23 pm

Quote from: Jeff and Deb – August 26, 2018, 02:44:02 pm

Tried the boost and the generator started.

Even with the generator running, if the converter/charger is kaput, your house batteries will still not be getting a charge. Check voltage at the house battery terminal. If charging, should show over 14 volts.

If not charging, check the outlet that the PC-75 is plugged into for good 110V. No 110V - check breaker box (like Pierce suggested)

If charger/converter is totally dead, then to charge the house battery you will have to either:
1. Start the engine (charge house battery with alternator through the isolator)
OR
2. Plug in a separate stand-alone 110V battery charger hooked up to house battery
OR
3. Wait on your new converter/charger

Re: 3 Days 0ut - Dead in the Water

Reply #24 – August 26, 2018, 02:58:23 pm

Quote from: Jeff and Deb – August 26, 2018, 02:54:50 pm

...a panel on the engine had been knocked loose.

That panel is your Bendix air cruise control/throttle setup. Has nothing to do with your electrical problems.

You DO need to get the panel secured properly to the bulkhead. If anything on that panel gets damaged, you will have no throttle (bad situation).

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