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lithium batteries- drop in

This topic of drop in replacement Lithium batteries is very interesting and would certainly make life easier to upgrade my house battery bank.  I have 2 8g8d batteries each with 225 AH which means at 50% usage the maximum I would be able to use is 225 AH.
The drop in replacements could have as much as 300 AH each which at 80% usage just about doubles my current battery bank and would cut off a lot of weight also.  Reprograming my inverter/charger and using my existing solar, generator, etc seems like it is too good to be true.  The one downside ( a big one ) is cost.  One such company is GreenLife.

I have been reading about some of you electrical geniuses and your solar/lithium projects- am jealous of your expertise and your ability to fabricate your systems.  Your results seem to make the project worthwhile so if you would like to discuss this idea here I would appreciate it and I bet some others might also.

Thanks in advance....................... ^.^d

Re: lithium batteries- drop in

Reply #1 –
Ted here is an email I sent to someone who was asking about Lithium batteries, a few years ago I built a 1000Ah LiFePO4 system for my Newell that worked great and is still going strong in a friends coach.  BTW I'm not a genius but did spend countless hours researching this project:

"The 3 gels 8D in my FT are about 13 years old but still going strong.  But since we'll be spending 5-6 months on the road to Alaska next year I plan to replace them this winter.  I'm looking at 2 "drop-in" LiFePO4 systems right now:  BattleBorn and LifeBlue, both have BMS built-in.  I'll only need 3-100Ah batteries to replace or slightly exceed the 3 8Ds.  The prices are about $1000/100Ah battery.  Both of these manufacturers have USA suppliers, BattleBorn tests and assembles the batteries in Nevada and has a 3 year warranty and has been in business 5 years.  LifeBlue imports the complete batteries from China, they have a 5+5 year warranty (5 years free replacement + 5 year prorated) but have only been in business 1 year. 
Unfortunately I haven't found a USA supplier that is stocking the individual large cells anymore.  They appear to be available but from what I've heard you have to pre-pay then wait for delivery which could be 2-6 months depending if the Chinese manufacturer has them in stock or has to make them.  But warranty is a big if.  And the price is not much less than BB or LB once you add a BMS, battery straps, display, etc.
I don't want to take that risk and the time line won't work for me.  So that brings me back to my choice of BB & LB.  If you decide to build a system using individual cells of LiFePO4s it is pretty easy if you understand wiring basics, you can buy the bus bars to connect them, there are a few BMS systems available (which is a must since it protects the individual cells from over/under voltage, and also prevents charging/discharging at low/high temperatures).
Not sure how much you've researched these yet but LiFePO4s (Lithium Iron Phosphate) are very safe, the electrolyte won't burn.  Some people are re-purposing Lithium Ion systems from various hybrid/electric cars.  I'm not knowledgeable about those systems but you can find blogs on google.  I think there is a safety factor to consider and the charging profiles may be different.
The system I built and that a friend is still using consisted of 4 1000Ah cells.  I found it much easier to build and install the 4 large cells.  But the supplier Balqon is defunct.  A couple USA suppliers have them listed on the webpages but check into the actual supply and lead time.  That would be my first choice to build a system.  Second is to buy "drop-in" 12vdc batteries like the BB or LB.  Victron makes a very nice system but it is much more $$$$.  Both BB & LB have responded to my emails in a day or 2.
I mounted the cells in the basement where the 4 8Ds were, I pulled out the rack and after redoing the compartment I bolted in a 3/4" plywood floor and used 2" aluminum angle to surround the pack.  I also had room to add a shelf above them for storage.  I removed 1200# and added 400# so saved 800#. 
Charging is the most complicated to figure out.  I was able to get the old Freedom 25 to charge at an acceptable rate after much trial and error but after charging I would turn the charger off.  My friend added a new inverter and I think has it set up to automatically charge then turn off.
Also you need some protection for your engine alternator and belts.  Since this system can accept such a high charge rate it can literally suck the insides out of the alternator.  If the pack is down and you start driving it will cause the alternator to overheat if it doesn't eat the belts first.  I changed the voltage regulator to a Balmar MC-614 which is programmable to limit the output and worked well.
Solar panels work great with a system like this.
I have 4 100watt panels which produce 14Ah/hour in good sun.  I've figured out that I use 100-150Ah overnight so 300Ah LiFePO4 should work for me and I should be able to fully recharge with solar.  I'll probably disable the alternator and keep the charger turned off unless I need to make up more charge.
The first thing to figure out is how often do you plan to dry camp?  Then calculate exactly how many Ah you use in a 24 hour period, your big residential fridge will use the most.  Then how will and how often will you recharge what you used?  If you add solar then recharging becomes pretty simple at least for how many watts the panels provide.
Here are a couple websites to begin researching:  LiFePO4 Batteries On Boats – Marine How To
Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar - Cruisers & Sailing Forums
This is my post about my install:  Lithium battery install
Here are a few other suppliers: 
starkpower.com/product/12-volt-100ah-battery/       $850, free shipping, built-in BMS, bluetooth, 2 year warranty, not in stock
Lithium Ion Batteries  Victron batteries
EVTV Motor Verks Store: CALB CA180FI 180Ah LiFePo4 Cell, Lithium Battery...  individual cells
batteryspace.com  individual cells
evassemble.com    China company. individual cells

Re: lithium batteries- drop in

Reply #2 –
Best drop in batteries out there, Relion.

Best Lithium Iron Phosphate Batteries | RELiON

A buddy has had them in his sailboat for a few months and the improvement over lead acid is amazing. Quicker charging, more AH, less generator time and fuel to charge, etc.

He did all the research over months and came to the conclusion they were better than Battleborn (although pricier) and he wanted the best. I guess only time will tell, but so far he is thrilled.

Re: lithium batteries- drop in

Reply #3 –
Nice stuff.  Single unit only?  Did I read the specs correctly.  Cannot be charged below 32 degrees or stored over 95 degrees.

Kept indoors? in moderate climate? seems like a nice power source

Re: lithium batteries- drop in

Reply #4 –
I would mount them inside the RV. I plan on putting my lithium bank where my trash compactor used to be.

Relion also has a cold weather battery with built in heaters that bring the battery up to a safe temperature before accepting a charge. Its all done automatically inside the battery. Using them cold is not an issue. Charging them cold causes problems.

Re: lithium batteries- drop in

Reply #5 –
An 8d with the heaters?  Is that the hp version?

Re: lithium batteries- drop in

Reply #7 –
Far as I know, I would NOT use a "drop in " LiFePo4 battery out there, unless things have changed in the last few months. You have to build the system around them. And at those prices, you don't want to mess around with them.  Almost any charger you have on board, and alternator, will not be compatible with lithium and will kill them eventually. I may be wrong on this, but doubt it. I did extensive research for the last year or so.
We purchased this coach pretty much due to the 1500 watts of solar and 600 ah of Victron lithium and multiplus. Yes its expensive. But they make a system that will last provided I don't screw it up. AM Solar installed them for the PO and did  a good job.
RV Geeks has a new system by Xantrex that also looks pretty sweet. Not out yet to the general public.
I used to think I would build my own, and would have. But it would have been a system built from the ground up to be a Lithium system. I would hesitate to do anything else.
Now if things have changed that would be nice...... but buyer beware.

Re: lithium batteries- drop in

Reply #8 –
I have had mine for close to two years now.  I purchased two 200A Victron as a kit and set them up per AM Solar.  My system is operated with both the Multipass 3000 and the Victron 85 MPPT set for lithium.  Some observations;

Mine are literally in the old rack.  The ventilation in this area has kept them within temperature limits.  BUT that area has flow through ventilation and top, bottom and all sides are open to the air flow.  I have a temp monitor in the compartment and have been within limits.  The compartment has consistently been cooler than ambient when the AC is on.  I have not operated in the high temp areas of the country.  Out of an abundance of caution, before our next outing, I am adding a blower and considering an opening with a fan under the couch to circulate cool air from the coach. 


In retrospect, I would have purchased the 5 x 90A and placed them in the file cabinet space or under the fridge in CS floor plan and had no worry. 

400A has met all of our needs.  I don't have a residential but intend to add a compressor.  The most underrated aspect of these sets is recovery time.  Going from bulk to float brings generator time way down if you have to use it.

Good luck!

Re: lithium batteries- drop in

Reply #9 –
FROM THE BATTLE BORN WEB SITE AND NOW 10YR WARANTEE

NOTE: Charging with an existing lead acid charger or inverter charger that bulk charges at 13.6 volts is acceptable, however it will take longer than a specialized li-ion charging system. These batteries perform best at 14.4 volts bulk and absorption charge.

SO does our stock alternator at +/-13.6v work too...

I can adjust my AIMS inverter-charger to 14.4v

can adjust the solar ?  AT MAX i get 52amp so with my usage of 85-215 (residential frige)  2-4 hrs at 80%

Sounds "drop in" to me..

One contrary point - BATTLE BORN BATTERY GOES TO 0%, THAT'S RIGHT  the battery internally takes care of the 20%, just like a power tool... ^.^d

So in my Senerio I will take my existing AGM 8D put in in for a start battery at 1500-1800 CA AND buy 3 100ah lithium in place of the 8D... all SMILES

What am I missing?

Re: lithium batteries- drop in

Reply #10 –
Here's the cream of the crop when it comes to lithium, 600 amp hour Lithionics 8D and made in the USA. Internal optional heater and several other options. Lithionics has been in the lithium business for 8 years, built in Clearwater Florida. Any size you can imagine.


Lithionics | Lithionics Battery | Advanced Lithium Ion Batteries

Re: lithium batteries- drop in

Reply #11 –
Sweet, though I imagine the price will have a bitter taste... No prices on the website, any idea how much for that bad boy? I would like about three, but I don't know if my kidneys would be worth that much :o
Don

Quote from: OffTheGridRVs –
Here's the cream of the crop when it comes to lithium, 600 amp hour Lithionics 8D and made in the USA. Internal optional heater and several other options. Lithionics has been in the lithium business for 8 years, built in Clearwater Florida. Any size you can imagine.
Lithionics | Lithionics Battery | Advanced Lithium Ion Batteries

Re: lithium batteries- drop in

Reply #12 –
I haven't kept up on lithium, but if I remember, they are affected by cold temps. Is that still the case. I would love lithium, but was afraid that our midwest winters would kill the battery pronto.

Larry

Re: lithium batteries- drop in

Reply #13 –
Battle Born 100ah(usable) - 10YR warrentee are $949 SHIPPED  ^.^d 

Isn't Tesla in the Reno, NV area....

I though I read they and AIMS are MILLITARY SUPPLIERS

Don, my concern would be all the cells in one 8d size Vs 100ah each in my case x 3

Any comments/concerns about my plan?

Re: lithium batteries- drop in

Reply #14 –
Larry, I share your concern.. when storing
Lithium has come a long way since Musk put in 2 major power installations  ASE, HI

Here is what I understand from the Web site and discussions...
1. FULL CHARGED
2. DISCONNECTED LOAD (BREAKER OFF)
3. DISCONNECT BATTERY FROM CHARGE source (BATTERY DISCONNECT)
Even an AGM BATTERY is in trouble at the operating extreams

When in USE - I'm either headed south OR north in thes extream temps.. ^.^d
BATTERY OPERATING RANGE -4 to 160F

Hey I bet if we get some orders we can get a discount....


Battle Born Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) Batteries | altE

Re: lithium batteries- drop in

Reply #15 –
Put me down for 3 Battleborns.  Probably will buy them sometime this winter but up for a discount!
Now if they would add a bluetooth individual cell monitoring system like LifeBlue does that would be awesome.

Re: lithium batteries- drop in

Reply #16 –
Lithionics is on eBay for 7500$ for 1 battery

Re: lithium batteries- drop in

Reply #17 –
Ebay add say about $1 per watt.  7500 watts at 12.5 volts is 600 amphr.  Higher $ than others but worth a look.  Less weight than 1 8D AGM.  Plus all the charging stuff and other bits.

Re: lithium batteries- drop in

Reply #18 –
You're right Don, they're not the cheapest in the industry that's for sure, but neither is FT. That 600AH with a 400 amp BMS is a about 9 CBs.

One should do you just fine unless you want to run the roof air all night. But then again, I've seen several of your post and am not surprised you want 3 lol. Very impressive work Don.

Re: lithium batteries- drop in

Reply #19 –
I'm using the quote link to reply but doesn't seem to be working, so I apologize for that everyone.

Folivier, the optional internal heater draws 30 watts @12v and uses an external toggle switch which will keep her warm all winter with a little solar. It's a $350 add on to the battery.