fuel hoses

Topic: fuel hoses (Read 2400 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: fuel hoses

Reply #25 – October 17, 2018, 09:59:34 am

John I think he was addressing leak down and he could not find any leaks. He is primarily a truck guy so maybe it is not a valid comparison.

Let's say you want to retain counsel and they give you a best guess of what is required. You retain and through the process it turns out it was the manufacture. Now you have to enjoin them in the suit and you are now opposing both the small garage and a major corporation. Time and money.

As to fraud, I would disagree on the time element depending of course on circumstances. However, this is not something I am comfortable going into in further detail. I would not tell the many highly qualified folks on the forum how to perform more difficult processes. My hope for them is they do not rely on their own interpretations of the law without seeking advice.

As the philosopher Forrest Gump once said "That's all I have to say about that".

Re: fuel hoses

Reply #26 – October 17, 2018, 10:40:56 am

George I talked to Chris at Gate Inc. this AM, and was told the pages that I represented as being for air lines came from a 2013 catalog, so much for not knowing. It does no good to pursue legal action as the "statue of limitations" for me is expired. Fraud in Texas has a 4 year limitation.
All I am trying to do is help save another FT forum member from experiencing what I did at Bern'd. Do not let me make your decision, go to who you want. We are luck to have several choices, MOT, FT, Bern'd.

Re: fuel hoses

Reply #27 – October 18, 2018, 04:27:10 am

If they knew they were the wrong hose and put it in anyway, charging for it, its fraud in my book. I looked up the legal term and as usual, the lawyers sure know how to cover the butts of the people that need to get knocked in the head while the rest of us bear the weight of it all. fraud legalese But in this or any business, if you want to stay in business, and you do the wrong thing, you make up for your mistakes. Even if you didn't know the hose is the wrong hose, you own up to it, and correct it, even if it goes back several years. You messed up buddy, you fix it.
Now how do you explain putting in 20 feel of hose when 15 will do, and charging for it? How do you spin that?
How do you repair someone's basement, and not bond the outer and inner layers with the foam core ? How do you say the job will take 8 weeks and it takes twice that, and still do a poor job ?
Fraud, crook, dumb, incompetent, or just plain unlucky, either way, you go to a shop like that, that has done members on this forum with poor service, and you get what they give. And you pay for it. I for one, will fix it myself, never thought otherwise because I wouldn't let a shop like that EVER touch my coach. And if I read in these forums that someone is reliable trustworthy good people, I would go there. Buyer beware. Its your money, your coach, and possibly your life your putting in their hands. Now bad fuel lines might not be the end of the world for you, nor bonding a basement, but maybe they did your brake lines too... now that's a thought. Seriously if your a Foretraveler, and your not mad about something like this.... then I don't know what to say.
My advice, fix your own coach if you can.

Re: fuel hoses

Reply #28 – October 18, 2018, 09:46:39 am

Ok, so I found the receipt from Bernd dated 8-1-14 to Paul Smith. He replaced 8 airbags, antifreeze, 2 coolant hoses, 2 seal rings and fuel lines with fittings. adjusted valves and injectors, rebuilt aquahot pump unit.. Cost total $5585. of that materials were 2499 with fuel hoses at 675. Labor was 2880.
So cost to replace fuel lines was $675 + 1530 = $2205 usd plus tax. Receipt doesn't mention type of fuel lines, or amounts or sizes. At $110 per hour that is roughly 14 hours of work which when all is said and done, is a reasonable amount to pay to replace the fuel hoses by a shop. However, given that the fuel lines he used were not appropriate for their intended use, and I am now, 4 years later having to replace said hoses, then I would have to say that the price was to high.
Also noted that he charged Paul $195 Per airbag. Now I don't know what the going rate for them at that time was but a quick check online shows for a Firestone W01-358-9448 is $164.02 times that by 8 airbags, and then by how many coaches per year and you start to get into a nice little side income. Of course its always buyer beware and check prices, but then when you put your trust in someone that you think you know, and I believe Paul trusted him to do this and other things on his coach, and therefore the PO did as well, and you just have to shake your head at the whole thing. Guy is in the biz to make money no doubt about that, and I don't begrudge anyone to do that, but I think I can reasonably say, that no, I would not use him, nor recommend him, nor say anything good about his work.
As Forest Gump says, "and that's all I have to say about that!"

Re: fuel hoses

Reply #29 – October 18, 2018, 10:42:48 am

A $30.98 price difference? Markup to take care of handling costs, shipping, purchasing, billing, paying, overhead, and a small profit margin and I don't think the markup is out of line.

Re: fuel hoses

Reply #30 – October 18, 2018, 06:49:15 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – October 18, 2018, 10:54:53 am

So, read and educate yourself from reading the forum, reading reviews and checking prices online. If you can't do the work yourself, at least you will have a working knowledge and can better negotiate the price and work that a shop is going to do on your coach. Knowledge is very important to avoid unpleasant surprises. Over 90 percent of the components our coaches utilize are common, off the self items available either locally or online. No magic in the quality in the parts from the coach's builder.
Just imagine what a patient without health insurance but with a job and house pays for an overnight stay in a hospital. And you think the RV shops are ripping you off?
Pierce

Pierce that is something that I think we all could agree on. I am in the health care biz, and am appalled at the costs. A real shame in the country to treat someones illness to make a profit. A huge one.

Sure their might not be a big markup per bag, but then you have 8 of them, then charge over $100 per hour... sorry I don't buy the whole I got costs. How many people here made $100 per hour in their work lives? You have a shop, have 3 guys working, and thats $300 per hour, $2400 per day, $12000 per week, $624000 per year plus your markups and that isn't for overtime or special stuff.

Everyone's got a right to earn a living, I agree.
When I looked at the receipts that are in my coach and tallied them up in my head, I was shocked at the prices guys paid for service. And that all adds up to a huge amount over time. One day I might just take a calculator to it all and see. There is a huge savings that can be had by shopping online, doing the work yourself, and only paying someone to do stuff you can't do. But better make sure you know who is doing the work. We depend on these forums to give good info on these guys, and when bad info is passed on, we all pay.
I get it some on these forums like this guy. I don't know, never met him, only his work.

Re: fuel hoses

Reply #31 – October 18, 2018, 07:17:26 pm

You know, the worst part of being a service adviser in a RV place for a year, was difficult after owning my own RV related business's all my life. I could see right through the techs flat rate BS.
I also gave so much work away, because someone would call, and I would start giving them phone tech, instead of chumping them into the shop, so I could lay them away $$$$.
Poor guys is on a RV vacation with his family, and tells me his refer won't work on LP. So what do I do, tell him to clean the burner. But I was instructed to get him in, and charge him one hour at $120.00, then 8.5% sales tax (on labor in Washington) then another $20.00 for 'Shop supplies". shop supplies in it self is joke in my mind.
The whole RV industry is over selling their service department's, and in the end they will pay for it. Remember, everything goes up and down, and this RV boom will go down again. I know, I 've been through it a few times.
Thanks for letting me rant
Chris

Re: fuel hoses

Reply #32 – October 18, 2018, 07:33:15 pm

Unless we want to talk about shops and overhead think the fuel hose aspect of the post is dead,don't matter to me,we can go on
or stop,one thing for sure,if buddy bernd had used the right hose we would'nt have had these posts,the cost of better hose was
irrelevent it would have been passed on.

Re: fuel hoses

Reply #33 – October 18, 2018, 07:34:25 pm

Just my two cents,
I've been working as a mechanic for over 40 years. The only place I would use Gates plant master or any red hose on my Foretravel is the air hose to air up the tires. That the hose everyone used to run over at the service station to ring the bell. That's what Gates means by oil and fuel resistant!
On the subject of flat rate, I've worked flat rate. It's purpose was meant to be an incentive. A great service person can perform many jobs faster than others. OEM would tell you a job should take 4 hours, that's what warranty or the customer should be charged. If the service person did the job in 3 they still go 4 hours pay. But if they took 5 shop only received 4. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way.
I think jobs should be quoted before hand and any change from the quote should an agreed or revised quote. That's how I did work at my business.

Re: fuel hoses

Reply #34 – October 18, 2018, 07:45:50 pm

Never had any work done at a shop yet other then tires but do these RV shops even charge flat rates,seems all the work is different.
What could they actually charge a flat rate for?If you get a price on a specific job that is not flat rate.My point being if the shops don't charge the flat rate why are we talking about it?

Re: fuel hoses

Reply #35 – October 18, 2018, 07:55:54 pm

Sorry, shop hourly rate to me is flat rate. Remember I've been on the other side of the counter. Just because your vehicle in the shop for 8 hours, it doesn't mean it's being worked on for 8 when you pay the bill.

Re: fuel hoses

Reply #36 – October 18, 2018, 08:00:41 pm

John I could careless about the cost of fuel line per foot or what a business needs to charge to make a profit. What I was talking about is a business in Texas that uses new Foretravel owners ignorance to provide inferior parts along with inferior workmanship.
You want to continue using that business go for it. I am speaking to those on the forum that want to avoid poor service.
I will give you another example of what I am talking about; Beau at Bern'd was going to do valve adjustment for me. So he was on top of the engine while his assistant was using a bar to turn the engine damper. His helper loosened the damper bolts in order to turn the damper. However, he loosed them so much he broke off 2 of them. Instead of getting a easy out and fixing their mistake, Beau and his helper pull off and go work on another coach. If that professionalism I am wrong.

Re: fuel hoses

Reply #37 – October 18, 2018, 08:22:52 pm

The fuel line debate is not dead it is only getting started. I have a fellow forum member that had Bern'd change his transmission fluid to synthetic. After leaving for home while on the interstate, he had low fluid transmission warning. It was down 1 gal. along with being charged $100 a gallon for the fluid that Bern'd had added. Mistake or incompetence. Poor supervision or unqualified tech.
Buyer beware or oversight. Too many customers or not enough qualified techs. Beau left why? Would be interesting to know the real reason why?

Re: fuel hoses

Reply #38 – October 18, 2018, 08:28:33 pm

Here's another tip for Beau and friends,you only have to position a straight six engine 2 times to do a valve adjustment,TDC number
1 on compression and 360 from that tdc number 1 exhaust,adjust half the valves at a time have done thousands like that.
Think they would have the turning tool by now.
Next time someone sees Beau,ask him why he left.

Re: fuel hoses

Reply #39 – October 18, 2018, 08:32:56 pm

Quote from: Hammer2100 – October 18, 2018, 07:34:25 pm

Just my two cents,
I've been working as a mechanic for over 40 years. The only place I would use Gates plant master or any red hose on my Foretravel is the air hose to air up the tires. That the hose everyone used to run over at the service station to ring the bell. That's what Gates means by oil and fuel resistant!
On the subject of flat rate, I've worked flat rate. It's purpose was meant to be an incentive. A great service person can perform many jobs faster than others. OEM would tell you a job should take 4 hours, that's what warranty or the customer should be charged. If the service person did the job in 3 they still go 4 hours pay. But if they took 5 shop only received 4. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way.
I think jobs should be quoted before hand and any change from the quote should an agreed or revised quote. That's how I did work at my business.

I respect what you said, been a RV tech on flat rate, and had tech's under me as a adviser on flat rate.
I have seen it over and over many times. 200-210 hours flagged, in a 38 hour week (summer you know, have to fish)
I agree the original plan was to create incentive, but I have also seen it many times abused, and used to lie and steal.
It got so bad with the FT techs I worked with, that Winnebago (which we sold also) started policing the work orders, and the tech's had to punch the time clock to get the flat rate.
Even at that, they figured out how to work it.
I agree, jobs should be quoted, but RV shops never do. At least give a ball park of what one might expect.
Chris

Re: fuel hoses

Reply #40 – October 18, 2018, 08:57:28 pm

Fuel lines, brakes, service, body work,whatever, I'll have a written quote for each operation BEFORE the work is performed. Your running a shop your supposed to be a professional @ 100.00+ an hour you should be able to estimate a job. I ran a construction fleet with 600+ vehicles and equipment. I can tell you I had better hit my budget by +~ 3%, or you had some splaining to do.

Re: fuel hoses

Reply #41 – October 19, 2018, 10:09:47 am

So he was on top of the engine while his assistant was using a bar to turn the engine damper. His helper loosened the damper bolts in order to turn the damper. However, he loosed them so much he broke off 2 of them. Instead of getting a easy out and fixing their mistake, Beau and his helper pull off and go work on another coach. If that professionalism I am wrong.

Took my coach to Beau had the valves adjusted and when I picked it up Beau was not there, helpers new nothing, I noticed right away that a bolt on my dampener had been twisted off. So I called him and he said I would have to pay to get it fixed. He never answered the phone for me again (and I was still in a good mood). The bolt was twisted off in the adapter to pulley and could not be drilled out. Those small bolts should never be used to turn over an engine. On the other side I machine a stainless adapter from the factory drawings supplied to me from FOT as they did not have one in stock. Once learned, not gonna be twice burned. The Stainless is a nice touch.

Re: fuel hoses

Reply #42 – October 19, 2018, 10:18:39 am

On my 8.3 Cummins I take the belt pulley off the dampener and use the bolts on back of that to turn the engine over,if you go slow
and let the compression dissapate you won't break a bolt and can use a ratchet.
PS John,good looking engine.

Re: fuel hoses

Reply #43 – October 19, 2018, 11:52:15 am

John good looking engine and thank you for confirming that I am not alone in experiencing mediocre at its finest.

Re: fuel hoses

Reply #44 – October 20, 2018, 10:23:13 am

Will probably send him a PM but last night I was looking at some old posts and found a picture posted by the Brays,it was of
a leveling part and lo and behold I saw the red air hose going into his fuel filter,don't want to alarm him but think he should know.

Re: fuel hoses

Reply #45 – October 20, 2018, 11:00:20 am

Sorry to hear about all the troubles everyone had regarding fuel line replacement. If they want to stay in business, they better start recalling some fuel line jobs!

Which shop in NAC does this Bernd guy own?

I just want to make sure I stay away from it so I don't get burned.

Re: fuel hoses

Reply #46 – October 20, 2018, 11:18:23 am

John 44 I see no reason to use air lines for fuel lines unless there is ignorance on either the foreman or owner. Which ever one was responsible for ordering air lines. But my question is now that Bern'd knows the fuel lines he installed were wrong: how is he addressing the problem. Back to one of your comments, why in the world would he use that product unless he was mislead by the salesman he purchased it from and never verified the use with Gates.
But he should hone up to his mistake and make some kind good faith jester.

Re: fuel hoses

Reply #47 – October 20, 2018, 11:27:52 am

Ditto on the condolences for shoddy work/billing, but it sure would be nice if Bern'd and Beau weren't so anonymous to those of us who are newcomers. After what I've read here, I'd like to avoid these two "technicians" like the plague. So again, full names, and where do they work? Woody.

Quote from: OffTheGridRVs – October 20, 2018, 11:00:20 am

Sorry to hear about all the troubles everyone had regarding fuel line replacement. If they want to stay in business, they better start recalling some fuel line jobs!

Which shop in NAC does this Bernd guy own?

I just want to make sure I stay away from it so I don't get burned.

Re: fuel hoses

Reply #48 – October 20, 2018, 11:31:06 am

Agree,my main point is no matter what he paid for the hose it would have been passed on to the customer.Just from being on the forum these years I think Bernd started out as an engine mechanic and maybe progressed to beyond his expertise,saw it in the
oilfield as a mechanic,some of these guys just can't form the words "I can't do that"or "I don't know".At the 100 per hour it's hard
to turn down work.Think if I was Bernd I would get on the forum and offer every member of the red hose club a redo for free.

Re: fuel hoses

Reply #49 – October 20, 2018, 11:31:26 am

Quote from: John44 – October 20, 2018, 10:23:13 am

...found a picture posted by the Brays...I saw the red air hose going into his fuel filter...think he should know.

Good of you to be concerned about another Forum member, but they no longer own their Foretravel. Downsized to a Class C.

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