Radiator and fan motor

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Radiator and fan motor

November 07, 2018, 06:57:46 pm

I have a couple of questions relating to radiator and fan motors
Got radiator out and when I ran my hand across cooling fins they just fell off
What would cause that kind of deterioration?

Went to pull hub off fan motor and end of shaft busted, i've Never had that happen before!
1. Is it repairable ie new shaft?
2. If not where is best place to get new pump?
3. If I replace one do I need to replace both?

Thanks
Chris

Re: Radiator and fan motor

Reply #1 – November 07, 2018, 07:07:06 pm

This is an example of a coach that has been driven where the roads are treated in winter with salt/other bad stuff. You should check your bulkhead fasteners now that you have discovered the "fin rot." The bottom of the radiator is usually the worst.

Ken H and several others are experts on fan pumps and motors.

Pierce

Re: Radiator and fan motor

Reply #2 – November 07, 2018, 07:43:11 pm

Looking at the pictures of your radiator it looks like what is know as fin rot. Had the same stuff on mine this summer, there is no repair for it. I replaced my radiator in June.

Re: Radiator and fan motor

Reply #3 – November 07, 2018, 08:20:16 pm

See if you can find a metal tag on your radiator and get a number off it,call Atlas radiator in CorpusChristi and get a price.If there
are any radiator shops in your area get a quote on a recore.I would get both pumps,also check your CAC for any problems.

Re: Radiator and fan motor

Reply #4 – November 07, 2018, 08:21:51 pm

Another good reason to keep your radiator and fan clean.

Re: Radiator and fan motor

Reply #5 – November 07, 2018, 08:40:03 pm

I have new radiator setting on floor behind coach got it from atlas 2366.00 including freight 2200 radiator
I was just curious as to what would cause it. I can see that road salt would do that.

Could really use help on fan motor!

BTW was considering replacing trans cooler while everything was out, but after talking to the local Allison Guy, he said if it was his he would leave it in. He did recommend having oil analysis done at least once per year and always keep an eye on dipstick for any water residue.

John CAC ? not sure what you mean

Chris

Re: Radiator and fan motor

Reply #6 – November 07, 2018, 08:48:02 pm

CAC= charge air cooler

Re: Radiator and fan motor

Reply #7 – November 07, 2018, 08:53:29 pm

The CAC appears to be in good shape
Chris
Around here they call it an inter cooler!

Where do you get fan motors and what brand are they?

Re: Radiator and fan motor

Reply #8 – November 07, 2018, 08:59:46 pm

Someone will chime in on the motors.

Re: Radiator and fan motor

Reply #9 – November 07, 2018, 09:59:29 pm

My pump & fan motor were made by John Barnes. No longer in business so Foretravel has spec'd new pumps and motors. I would talk to Billy Jack in parts. Mine were pretty pricey. Over $900 for the pump and $700 for the motor from FOT. Mine's a single fan I hear the 2 fan motors are even more expensive.

see ya
ken

Re: Radiator and fan motor

Reply #10 – November 07, 2018, 10:04:01 pm

Send a PM to Ken Hathaway. Yours looks like a horizontal radiator so it may have two fan motors or not.

CAC and Intercoolers are terms for the same thing. I've always used the intercooler term. Detroits 2-cycles and some CATs use aftercoolers and are, in the case of the Detroit, mounted internally below the turbo and the big blower. They use coolant instead of air to cool the incoming air.

Some also use the term vacuum generator but in every catalog/manual for cars, trucks or airplanes, the term is always vacuum pump. Guess we are all on the same page as far as understanding what it does.

The road salt/chemicals leave a white residue that seems to get everywhere on the coach. Important to wash the undercarriage and anywhere else you can see it after a drive on treated roads. Pushers are the most susceptible. We went through a car wash with bottom sprayers everyday on the way home during winter in Germany.

Pierce

Re: Radiator and fan motor

Reply #11 – November 07, 2018, 10:05:47 pm

Thanks, Ken I'll give him a call

Does anyone know what cfm the 2 hydraulic fans pull when running on high?
Chris

Re: Radiator and fan motor

Reply #12 – November 07, 2018, 10:13:18 pm

Chris,

I may be only at the end of an internet connection but I think I can read your mind. "I'm going to find a better deal than mega hundreds for the pump and motors." Right? I can't blame you. I cringe every time I look at them. Let everyone know if you find a good solution.

Good luck!

Pierce

Re: Radiator and fan motor

Reply #13 – November 07, 2018, 10:18:34 pm

Quote from: Chris m lang – November 07, 2018, 10:05:47 pm

Thanks, Ken I'll give him a call

Does anyone know what cfm the 2 hydraulic fans pull when running on high?
Chris

Don't know the cfm (not sure what that is) but mine pulls around 3,000 psi at WOT. They are many different setups that FOT used so this information will probably not be useful to you. You probably need to talk to James Triana at FOT.

Attached is a hand written fan rpm chart that James sent me. I've posted it before but thought it might be helpful.

Maybe figured it out. CFM = Cubic Feet per Minute?? I've not seen any CFM measurements icw radiators.

see ya
ken

Re: Radiator and fan motor

Reply #14 – November 08, 2018, 12:46:16 am

I would not worry about fan CFM, it's important but will vary way beyond what anyone here can explain. Focus on finding a fan hydraulic motor with a similar displacement and the right shaft size, if you can't find the displacement specs you can spin it many times and then measure the output volume.

Re: Radiator and fan motor

Reply #15 – November 08, 2018, 07:13:44 am

Quote from: Chris m lang – November 07, 2018, 08:40:03 pm

Could really use help on fan motor!

Howdy Chris,
This is a cut/paste I saved from a post by Sven. May have some help for you.
Fan motor rebuild update

"Hydraulic Fan Motors by Sven and Kristi
My fan motors are Saur Sundstrand 551101142183 (need this # for any tech support). .
Foretravel # (not good anywhere but FT): P36583 and P36584 (has valve attached to bottom).
The seal kit is 221.20.034OK and it includes the shaft seal.
Turolla in Ames, IA,, a division of Danfoss is where you need to go for tech support: (515) 239-6677
and they will direct you to Berendsen Fluid Power (800) 722-4975 for the seal kit.
Torque for 4 housing bolts is 45#. The shaft nut is 32-41#
They didn't have torque specs. for the fan blade bolts, but I don't think that is critical as long as you tighten them evenly"

Good Luck, Dave A

Re: Radiator and fan motor

Reply #16 – November 08, 2018, 08:10:33 am

Quote from: Chris m lang – November 07, 2018, 08:40:03 pm

Could really use help on fan motor!

Chris,

As you may have already guessed, Foretravel used a number of different hydraulic pumps and fan motors on their cooling systems. There is no rhyme or reason to what part was used on what model. Two coaches built on the same day might have totally different fan motors from different manufacturers. Very confusing!

SO, one thing that will help is if you can find a metal I.D. tag on the fan motor. Clean them off and look for any identifying marks or numbers. This information will help when talking to anyone about replacement motors or rebuild parts. Once you have some way to positively describe the exact fan motor model you need, then get on the phone. You have already been given a couple people to call. Get an idea from them IF replacement motors are readily available, and how much they will cost.

Only after you have done that, should you try to wander off on your own looking for a off-the-shelf substitute motor. Unless you happen across a very rare old-school hydraulic expert who is willing to spend (valuable) time helping you with your project, it is unlikely you will have much if any success. There are literally thousands of different hydraulic motors out there. They differ in a myriad of details. The odds of you stumbling across the correct motor for your application is pretty low.

Keep plugging away on finding the replacement motors, or rebuild kits. You may luck out and find them at FOT. Please keep us informed of your efforts, because many of us will eventually be in your shoes.

Re: Radiator and fan motor

Reply #17 – November 08, 2018, 08:32:02 am

Link below is to my thread on rebuilding the hydraulic pump on our coach. Although this info will be of no help to you in finding your replacement motors, I offer it as an example of what is possible. It is possible that you might be able to find the parts to rebuild your fan motors. Remember, a hydraulic motor is, in many cases, simply a hydraulic pump running in reverse. These devices can be pretty simple inside, and if you somehow manage to find the correct kits, they are pretty easy to rebuild. The key is identifying your motor, and finding the kits. Good luck!

Vickers V10 Hydraulic Pump Rebuild

Re: Radiator and fan motor

Reply #18 – November 08, 2018, 08:35:14 am

Thanks all for the input-- If I can get the fan hub off without destroying anything, my plan now is to drill the shaft and use a bolt to hold the fan on instead of a nut! I will keep you posted
Thanks Dave for Sven post
Chuck, you would think after this long Foretravel would have figured out what was best and stayed with it!
Chris

Re: Radiator and fan motor

Reply #19 – November 08, 2018, 09:01:33 am

Quote from: Chris m lang – November 08, 2018, 08:35:14 am

...my plan now is to drill the shaft and use a bolt to hold the fan on instead of a nut...

I'm not even close to being a machinist, but that idea makes me kinda nervous. Hydraulic pump shafts are made of very hard steel, and they are not very big (in diameter). IF you can successfully drill the shaft, and IF you can tap the hole you drilled, it is gonna take a pretty small bolt. The cooling fans can turn at a high RPM, and are heavy. If the whole shaft, bolt and fan assembly are not perfectly balanced, they will be unstable at high speed. If a fan was to come loose at high RPM, it could do grievous damage to your new radiator. I would suggest you think this plan through very carefully...

Re: Radiator and fan motor

Reply #20 – November 08, 2018, 09:24:00 am

Best advice on the hydraulic fan motor is to take it to a local hydraulic shop and get THEIR advice.

Re: Radiator and fan motor

Reply #21 – November 08, 2018, 10:54:50 am

Berndt Ramspeck in Nac rebuilt our motors successfully for not much money but your broken shaft complicates things. FT Parts is probably your best bet.

Re: Radiator and fan motor

Reply #22 – November 08, 2018, 11:12:31 am

Chris, most of the info I have is in the paragraph posted above. The rebuild was pretty straight forward and very simple. The only advise I would have regarding the dismantling and replacing seals and O rings would be to do one at a time and take photos as you go. If you get stuck on the re-assembly, you have the other motor to refer to. I have photos I can send if you think they would help. Any info I might have regarding the shaft would be no more helpful that what has already been offered, since I did not have to contend with that issue. When I did my motors, they weren't showing any signs of leakage, if I recall correctly, but I did the rebuild since they were exposed with the radiator out.

Your radiator looks like mine did, but mine might have been worse. I replaced it with the aid of a couple of motorcycle lifts (Harbor Freight for less than $100 each) and my tractor. If you have a concrete work area, you might not need the tractor (I was on dirt). Everyone I talked to at the time strongly recommended that I replace the CAC at that time, despite it looking fine. On the other hand, it is attached outboard of the radiator and can more easily be replaced at a later date.

If you are attempting to do the radiator replacement yourself, I have a lot of info and photos and will be glad to act as a resource. Good luck.

Re: Radiator and fan motor

Reply #23 – November 08, 2018, 11:43:08 am

I forgot to mention the transmission cooler. Since it was extremely rusty, I decided to replace it. This was $1500 (from manufacturer, @ $2200 from FT) that didn't need to be spent. Several months ago I decided to cut into the cooler to see what it looked like. It had a very thick shell and everything looked new on the inside. My recommendation is to treat the rust and continue to use it, unless you suspect perforation of the metal. I posted photos not long ago.

Re: Radiator and fan motor

Reply #24 – November 08, 2018, 11:48:34 am

Our CAC had broken mounting tabs and a couple of pinholes,had it repaired for $750,made it to Alaska and back.

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