Risks adding BanksPower

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Risks adding BanksPower

December 23, 2018, 07:15:48 pm

We are not advocates of adding BanksPower for several reasons, mostly from extra engine & tranny stresses. I think it important to not buy a coach with too little power (ie Cummins 5.9) and expect an add-on to fix what the manufacturer caused.

I read the attached article explaining how Banks modifies engine and learned most mods also monitor the extra stress. The end result is more power within safe limits. I was surprised at the many changes, and the complexity they bring.

That is until a monitoring sensor fails maybe causing stress to go out of limits. With the long life of our coaches, things fail.

Even with our C8.3 we have enough power without Banks to climb the highest mountain (with Bing Crosby) pulling our 5,000 lb Jeep, so why would I want to add stress and complexity to a good engine.

Below are some of the changes and required monitoring, extracted from the attached article, needed to keep things in line:

"Whenever additional fuel is injected into the engine, extra air is needed as well to keep exhaust-gas temperatures from getting too high.

In conjunction with the fuel increases, Banks changes the turbo-charger's variablegeometry settings to increase boost and needed airflow.

Power is briefly reduced during shifts to lower the torque going through the transmission, which protects it and reduces wear on clutch packs and other components.

Banks installs special high-tech cylinder-pressure sensors, which measure peak pressures to ensure that safe limits are always maintained.
works by optimizing fuel injection, increasing dwell [spraytime) of the injectors.

It also advances injection timing when it's advantageous,

the system increases fuel-rail pressure for better fuel atomization.

peak fuel pressure is always kept below the stock pressure-relief valve setting to maintain reliability. "

Re: Risks adding BanksPower

Reply #1 – December 23, 2018, 07:22:05 pm

In the Coeur D Alene area there was a guy called Doctor Diesel. He was doing this to Cummings.
One day they towed his coach in to the FT dealer with a broken motor. He took all the Banks stuff off, so he could get it warrantied.
I'am a drag race. I love power, would never put that stuff on something I wanted to have for longevity.I agree with the above cominets about putting stress on stuff.
We put lots of them on the gas engines, but that was just an exhaust and air cleaner. people said it helped.
Just my opinion
Chris

Re: Risks adding BanksPower

Reply #2 – December 23, 2018, 07:25:48 pm

If you want more power get the M-11,agree with the above.
I know it's not the same comparison but the non-turbo natural gas engines I worked on would last at least twice or 3 times as long as a turbo model.

Re: Risks adding BanksPower

Reply #3 – December 23, 2018, 09:48:57 pm

Quote from: Barry & Cindy – December 23, 2018, 07:15:48 pm

Even with our C8.3 we have enough power without Banks to climb the highest mountain (with Bing Crosby) pulling our 5,000 lb Jeep, so why would I want to add stress and complexity to a good engine.

Ok I'm not sure what your asking, but nobody has ever said I have too much HP.. That being said, ten 1% mods are as good as or better as a claimed 10% widget. So bang for your buck I will attempt to list some mods you may benefit from, until you max out your radiator capacity.

First off parasitic loss reduction that decrease the radiator heat loads, and increase wheel HP. These ideas will also get you closer to the OEM design stress.

Full synthetic oils in drivetrain, probably good for 2% or better.

Colder intake air, insulate or isolate your intake air system up to the turbo from the hot engine compartment air. On my coach I'm probably sucking 160+ degree air into my engine intake on a long steep climb and losing 30%+ HP.

Check the Donaldson website for your peak intake and exhaust airflows. OTR trucks run a slashed exhaust outlet for good reason. A straight tip exhaust outlet is probably 4-5 hp drag based on velocity pressure of your coach exhaust diameter at max load.

Re: Risks adding BanksPower

Reply #4 – December 23, 2018, 09:50:12 pm

X2 on what Barry said. Hottroding diesels almost always ends badly( been there done that) If you need/ want mo power get mo bigger motor.

Re: Risks adding BanksPower

Reply #5 – December 24, 2018, 08:29:37 am

never seen a single failure or issue with banks stuff. No one in the rv biz discounts the coaches trade in appraisal because of a banks installation. We are underweight versus trucks.

Re: Risks adding BanksPower

Reply #6 – December 24, 2018, 09:46:54 am

Don't think the issue is Banks quality or failure but the bottom line it makes the engine run hotter and harder.

Re: Risks adding BanksPower

Reply #7 – December 24, 2018, 10:45:59 am

Every diesel I have owned except for my FT has had a tuner on it. Only issue I ha e ever had was with my 05 GMC.. 75k blew a hole in the piston.. Always had an issue with overheating when towing since I had bought it.. before the addons..

Injector stuck open and by by piston.. big boom..

Gm had an issue with engine castings in the one of the oroduction runs.. I had it in 4 or 5 times for over beating but they did nothing.. replaced the motor for 10k and will never give GM any of my money again as they never stood behind they product. Seen a lot of trucks with programmers.. typical weak spot is transmission.. on my gmc is was rail pressure first then trans..

The tune I ran in my truck , I was able to get 17mog from 13 on the highway and passed smog with flying colors.. MCRAT was one of the best programmers out. Not sure if he still does them or not..

Bought a dodge after the gmc.. Way better product for towing just not as nice interior as the gmc and the ride was not as plush.. you can safely add power.. without issues , if done right..

Re: Risks adding BanksPower

Reply #8 – December 24, 2018, 10:54:27 am

I agree with Bob, never heard of an issue, only positive with Banks. The Banks Stinger was installed on my 325HP by the original owner in 1997. Recently had injection pump (mis diagnostic by local truck shop) bench tested at idle and up thru power curve, the injection pump tech said all was smooth and performing perfectly.

Banks kit made trades sell faster, as they always have had a good reputation. With the full kit you also have a boost gauge and exhaust temp gauge.

Re: Risks adding BanksPower

Reply #9 – December 24, 2018, 11:17:17 am

Naturally, more HP means the engine is running harder and depending on the boost, hotter. However, most 8.3 Cummins don't seem that stressed at typical ratings. Tiffin rates their 8.3 Cummins at 380 HP and I've not heard many negatives at that rating. With a commercial chassis, they probably have increased cooling capacity engineered into their coach.

Cooling is marginal in many Foretravels, ours being one of them. I would like to have a 500HP FD Ladder Truck 6V-92TA but know a lot of work would have to be done with more cooling capacity added for it to be successful.

Banks has an excellent reputation but with the added HP, operator consciousness becomes even more important and a failure to monitor temps/boost can really cut engine life. Since most RV operators don't have the training (nice way of putting it) to do this, it may not be the smartest idea.

On the other hand, Cummins brought their ISX up to 650HP and over 1900 ft lbs torque. Several forums addressing the high failure rate at this HP and the over $30,000 cost to fix it. Quite a few dropped #6 valve at very low miles.

Two long aluminum horse trailer stories; I talked to one fellow in Nevada with a new diesel P.U. His last was a Ford 6.9 non-turbo. He drove it 650,000 miles with zero problems before trading it in. The second was leaving the big fueling station west of Salt Lake. A Dodge with a 5.9 was in front of me pulling a VERY long horse trailer going onto the freeway. I was bringing back a one ton Ford with a mechanical turbo 7.3 diesel. He left me like I was standing still in a cloud of black smoke even though I was pedal to metal. Several hours later, I was just coming into Winnemucca, NV when I spotted him at the side of the interstate with his hood up and smoke showing. Never a good sign.

Pierce

Re: Risks adding BanksPower

Reply #10 – December 24, 2018, 11:19:29 am

Humm, exhaust gas temperature gauge. Wonder what happens it that gets too high? Tuners and hop- up kits are are fine, IF the driver under stands the mechanics of them. I wonder if Cummins would warranty an engine with a banks kit or tuner? I know GM dealers check for program changes on all diesel PUs, the processor keeps a record of how many times it has been reprogramed. Also as someone else mentioned, you have to be careful not to exceed the cooling system capacity. More HP = more btu's.

Re: Risks adding BanksPower

Reply #11 – December 24, 2018, 11:36:13 am

On the gm.. before and probably now.. you have an extra pcm set aside for the tune and replace it for any warranty work was needed . Not sure if that is still possible .. or start adding all the extra stuff after warranty..

All the egr stuff and recycling equipment DEF and so on .. terrible stuff for a motor .. but hey slight smog vs junked truck .. why not..

Re: Risks adding BanksPower

Reply #12 – December 24, 2018, 11:45:50 am

Quote from: John44 – December 24, 2018, 09:46:54 am

Don't think the issue is Banks quality or failure but the bottom line it makes the engine run hotter and harder.

I had Banks install their package In my GMC when we had a fiver. I was running a bit "heavy". Before the Banks install I would overheat climbing the mountains in the West, long pulls up steep grades. After the install I did not. After the install in Azusa I headed East and ran up a long grade to Bakersfield(?) with my foot to the floor as a test of the system not only did the GMC not overheat the temp needle did not move. I never had an overheat issue after the install. I had over 100K miles on that truck when I sold it. Selling it was a big mistake should have kept it.

Roland

Re: Risks adding BanksPower

Reply #13 – December 24, 2018, 12:16:07 pm

I have a Banks Stinger on our Cummins 300 and that has been on it now over 10 years with no problems what so ever. Could not see not having it as a couple of times the 5 amp fuse for tuner blew and it was as if I was towing another coach behind. The fuse was in a bad wet area so I moved it to a dry location and now all is fine.
Climbing hills or just flat Hwy driving is much better and my fuel consumption is much better. I have been keeping track of fuel use and the coach has no problems achieving 10 plus mpg constantly.. I keep an eye on temp and boost while climbing and drive accordingly
And engine cooling temp are fine. The previous owner towed a heavy suburban with no issues and I have just changed from a Tracker to Durango so will see what it will be like next year.
It has been all fun and no problems so I am a happy camper.
JohnH

Re: Risks adding BanksPower

Reply #14 – December 25, 2018, 11:27:09 am

Bruce Mallinson is the owner of Pittsburg Power. He says that every diesel engine should have a turbo boost gauge and a pyrometer. Bruce is a stand up guy and you can call him and he'll help you understand performance improvements. In the trucking industry his company is involved in helping over the road truckers make more money with performance improvements in order to get better MPG.. There is a facebook group of truckers that call themselves the "9 plus club"
Marine versions of the Cummins 6B 5.9 engine have 350 HP. It's not about racing down the road it's about driving down the road using your right foot for optimum fuel mileage. Turbo boost is power, power is fuel consumption, Pyrometer is the exhaust temperature. If you drive with your right foot and keep the turbo boost down to a minimum say 5 pounds and your pyrometer is say 800 degrees and your tooling down the road at a steady speed of 65 then your are saving money in your fuel budget. Most all of us have good sense about driving and aren't into burning rubber and being the first off the line. LOL just my 2 cents.

My 1985 V917 Cat 3408T has 250 hp. I would like to put an intercooler on it, larger fuel nozzles tweak it up to about 400 hp. and drive that sucker down the road and pass everything. LOL OK I've had enough fun. LOL

Re: Risks adding BanksPower

Reply #15 – December 25, 2018, 01:25:32 pm

Philip,I drove a duplicate coach to yours with the marine twin turbo top end bolted on to it.

He had 95k on it, he never floored it unless in high gear.

A gulf coast cat shop put it on, no idea what else was done but the marine version should be reaearchable.

Re: Risks adding BanksPower

Reply #16 – December 25, 2018, 03:43:36 pm

I miss the dual gauges we had on the Airstreams, I drove by them when climbing the 'rocks of the Westies'. I called CAT when we got his coach and they said, "As long as the engine has NOT been modified from delivered specs, there is no reason."

I still miss them, though we've pulled some steep ones with no problems.

Re: Risks adding BanksPower

Reply #17 – December 25, 2018, 04:07:21 pm

I really liked the Banks system. Still have my 5.9 2006 Ram. Great towing truck. Put on the Banks system, manifold, exhaust, chip etc with the exception of the intercooler. Started with the exhaust brake after a harrowing almost in descending Kings Canyon's grade. All done in Azusa at their facility. Love
having all the digital gauges.

Later took it to Suncoast in Ft Walton for their transmission upgrade as the RE wouldnt handle the power increase at some point. Went from being a good tow vehicle to what I consider to be a great one.

Re: Risks adding BanksPower

Reply #18 – December 25, 2018, 04:17:15 pm

I have a 2000 Ford F-250 Superduty 4x4 v10 I bought in 2000. Had banks complete headers and exhaust system put on back then and their trans controller.

17 years later still have the truck and it still has the banks stainless steel system on it.

Way better power and mpg

Re: Risks adding BanksPower

Reply #19 – December 25, 2018, 04:33:00 pm

We drive up hills / mountains in our 325hp C8.3 by downshifting to stay below about 950 degrees exhaust temp (as measured AFTER turbo) and keeping RPM 1,000 to 1,500. We observe boost but do not drive by boost pressure, which can get up to around 26 psi. We are never full throttle to the floor.

Re: Risks adding BanksPower

Reply #20 – December 25, 2018, 04:39:26 pm

Going over 8 to San Diego I was shifting to keep the RPMS up around 1700 to reduce coolant heat. I don't have a Pyrometer but have your engine. Am I generating excessive heat?

Re: Risks adding BanksPower

Reply #21 – December 25, 2018, 05:16:11 pm

This is the most comprehensive information why you need an exhaust gas temperature (EGT) gauge. This is also why my Banks kit installed 20+ years ago included the EGT guage.

Why EGT is Important | Banks Power

Also since this post started talking about the safety of adding a Banks system, note the following:

All the Banks systems (excluding Banks racing products, see Racing the Diesel elsewhere on this site) are engineered to first improve the airflow capability of the engine. By increasing the airflow of the diesel, then fuel can be added in a precisely calibrated manner to increase power while maintaining an acceptable air/fuel ratio that doesn't create excessive EGT. All power systems for '94-04 Ford Power Strokes, '94-04 Dodge/Cummins 5.9L turbo-diesels, and '93-02 Cummins 5.9L and 8.3L motorhome turbo-diesels feature the Banks OttoMind fuel calibration system to correctly add fuel to match increased airflow in such a manner as to keep peak EGT below 1300º F. Every power system has its own specifically calibrated OttoMind for the power level of the system on that particular vehicle. The calibration is engineered to coincide with the engine manufacturer's EGT recommendation and Banks' extensive testing. Power systems for the '98-04 Dodge/Cummins 24-valve 5.9L pickups, and '98-02 Cummins 5.9L ISB and 8.3L ISC motorhomes get the added benefit of Banks exclusive TLC2 (temperature limiting control), which is built into the OttoMind. TLC2 monitors the EGT and automatically reduces the amount of fuel added by the OttoMind to keep the EGT from exceeding 1300º F.

Re: Risks adding BanksPower

Reply #22 – December 25, 2018, 06:12:08 pm

George, know that climb, and doing it next week. I assume you are ok as long as you downshift and are not 'heavy' on the throttle pedal. In our coach dash coolant gauge will climb a little over normal 180, but not into 190 degree range. Until you have an EGT gauge, just use your coolant gauge, although slower and less accurate, keep the temp as close to normal as possible.

Information & explanation on why this is the only pyrometer / exhaust gas temp / EGT sender and gauge to buy (in our opinion):

Only needs a few wires from engine to dash. Existing spares are ok.

Boost and EGT Sensor Locations

Digital Pyrometer & Boost Gauges - VEI Systems

Re: Risks adding BanksPower

Reply #23 – December 25, 2018, 06:58:16 pm

Not sure why the discussion, think Banks kits for the 8.3 have been unobtanium for years now.
If someone has a source I'd sure like to know about it.

Re: Risks adding BanksPower

Reply #24 – December 25, 2018, 07:29:33 pm

Cummins ISC 8.3L MAGNUM EVO-Tech Heavy Duty Performance Chip

Read on this for all interested.. if not.. dont read.

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