Three Battle Born LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Batteries or 4 8D Gel BK house batteries.

Topic: Three Battle Born LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Batteries or 4 8D Gel BK house batteries. (Read 1365 times) previous topic - next topic

Three Battle Born LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Batteries or 4 8D Gel BK house batteries.

January 14, 2019, 05:42:36 pm

When I get my RV out of winter storage I will be checking battery condition and evaluate if it is time to replace my house batteries. I am thinking some of you have already gone thru this thought, and I would like to get your input, in case I suddenly need to replace my three currently 5 yr old Oreilly 8D AGMs.

Cost is about the same, approx $3,000. The other alternative is 3 or 4 O'Reilly AGM 8ds for 1500 - $2000. (Military discount, 10%)

I have recently installed a residential Samsung refrigerator, Xantrex SW2000 with 100 amp charging, 560 watts mppt solar. I am leaning towards the O'Reilys AGMs because of #1 cost over 5 years, #2 because I am not totally sure of how my wife and I will part time, full time, for 6 months out of the year. We will be traveling for 6 months without the RV, 6 months with.

Re: Three Battle Born LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Batteries or 4 8D Gel BK house batteries.

Reply #1 – January 14, 2019, 06:13:36 pm

Jack, 4 8Ds will give you about 1000 amp hrs total, about 500 amp hrs max usable. And realistically for longer battery life more like 300 amp hrs. 3 Battleborn 100 amp hr batteries will have a gross amp hrs of 300 and a practical usable at 240 amp hrs.

Six Fullriver DC335-6 will weigh about the same as 4 8Ds especially when you consider racks and will give you about 1005 amp hrs. They will fit on one level in the space where two 8Ds fit. They may even be cheaper and have a much better warranty. They will give you avout the same usable amp hrs at the 4 8Ds.

Fullriver Battery DC335-6 Product Information

You need to have a pretty good idea of how much power you will actually use in a day. With a residential refrigerator 2800-3500 watts. Be very realistic doing this estimate. Measure what you can. Your refrigerator will use about 1700 watts. Your solar will help but over a day or two you will fall short. Watts = volts x amps. Use 12.5 volts. 300 amp hrs is about 3750 watt hrs.

Lithium batteries can be discharged more without fully recharging them. AGM or Gell batteries do better if they are fully recharged each cycle and discharged not much more than 30%. Lithium batteries recharge faster. Recharging lithium batteries takes some specialized equipment and care. Lithium batteries are much lighter.

I am hoping when it is time to replace my 8Ds, BattleBorn or someone else with be more cost effective and have some better common charging schemes. Apples to apples here you will probably want 4 lithium batteries.

Re: Three Battle Born LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Batteries or 4 8D Gel BK house batteries.

Reply #2 – January 14, 2019, 07:51:21 pm

New your coach had mk gels. Double the cycle life of agm's. Does not need equalization. Agm's can need it and cannot take it except for Lifelines.

New IC-37 has three 4d's. Taller. 210 amp hours. Still mk's.

Residential added 40% additional battery power use. If you add the additional batteries in AGM to charge them at the recommended 20% of capacity to help slow plate sulfation you would need more alternator power and charger power.

The mk gels are not affected as much by lower charging rates and do not sulphate so unless you go gels the agm's will be a medium term problem in my opinion.

Li-ion is great. Battle born shows how to adjust your magnum charger to recharge them correctly.

Li-ion can take 50% of capacity charging according to Battle born.

So 400 amp hours could take 2 magnums. 200 amp charging.

Battle borns are not made for cold at the battery temps.

Least compromise and lowest cost per cycle is mk gels. Same as your coach came with new.

My coaches battery's are next to the main compartment and two extra 8g8d's would be right next to my existing three current ones that test nearly new after 4 years.

Brads brother Dave and others mentioned a fourth 8g8d really helped the refer power issue.

Lifeline 8d's can take a charge 20% faster and have 250 amp hours capacity versus 225 for gels and can be equalized if you partially recharge them then draw them down again over long term.

IH-45 has 6 mk 8g8d's last i looked.

360 amp alternator and a double charger setup.

Everything needs to match for the most cycles per dollar.

Non equalizable agm's would be my last choice.

Cheaper for a while but as their capacity drops would kick myself for being cheap.

As usual more money in the long run....

Re: Three Battle Born LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Batteries or 4 8D Gel BK house batteries.

Reply #3 – January 14, 2019, 08:16:09 pm

Battle born are not Lithium Ion batteries. They are lithium iron phosphate batteries, a completely different technology. It helps answer the question with correct information.

Re: Three Battle Born LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Batteries or 4 8D Gel BK house batteries.

Reply #4 – January 14, 2019, 08:32:14 pm

Wow I stand corrected. Was my spelling ok? I incorrectly assumed that most here would understand my reference was to the phosphate version. Guess not.

Substituting the more accurate li-ion phosphate term in my post are the facts I posted incorrect?

Life spans, ability to take charges at lower rates, plate issues, cycle costs, equipement matching needed charge rates.

Any knowledgeable input would be welcome..

Re: Three Battle Born LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Batteries or 4 8D Gel BK house batteries.

Reply #5 – January 14, 2019, 08:43:24 pm

Battle Born batteries have a good reputation and I have heard a rumor they will be making a bigger battery sometime in the future. That being said, there is also the cost of additional wiring, etc....to change over.

Another very interesting option is Lithionics- they have a battery that fits in 8D size and has 600 amp hours of Lithium iron phosphate. They are not cheap, but neither are our Foretravel's.

The hardest thing to do is justify the cost of upgrades when you are not sure how much time you will be boon docking vs being plugged in at a campground/rv park. Unless you plan on mostly dry camping without running your generator, staying with your present configuration , with fresh batteries (Gel or AGM, your choice), might be your best option. Take your savings and use it for traveling in your coach.

I go through this question myself many times as I am full time in my coach and sometimes drool over the idea of newer technology, less weight, etc. Then I look at how we travel and realize that even at 1/3 of our time dry camping, we do just fine with our 500 watts of solar, 2 8G8D batteries and our 10 Kw generator. My batteries are 5.5 years old and still going...........so I will keep reading, watching, etc until the time comes to replace these batteries. The original batteries lasted 11 years, I am hoping for 10 on these.

Travel a lot and have fun.
Cya down the road

Re: Three Battle Born LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Batteries or 4 8D Gel BK house batteries.

Reply #6 – January 14, 2019, 10:40:17 pm

I bought 1200ah lithium for $4800.00 delivered.. Has to be built but has internal BMS in each cell. Should have them in the next few weeks.. once I get them and am able to test them and get them in I will post some pics. International order.

Re: Three Battle Born LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Batteries or 4 8D Gel BK house batteries.

Reply #7 – January 15, 2019, 06:15:03 am

Im not an expert just reading the specs from the BATTLE BORN site and warentee .. some info is new..

Bob, low temp for BB is not any more an issue than it is for AGM batteries. The BMS protects the batteries down to less than 20 degrees.

Roger the BB batteries are 100% at rated amper hours: 100ah rating = 100ah of useable power. The bms controls this and they built in the additional 20%.

Re: Three Battle Born LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Batteries or 4 8D Gel BK house batteries.

Reply #8 – January 15, 2019, 06:53:12 am

I suspect Rogers point was useable amps. 100 AH, but do. It discharge below 50% for purposes of battery life = 50 useable amp hours

Tim Fiedler
Gen-Pro.biz
630 240-9139

Re: Three Battle Born LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Batteries or 4 8D Gel BK house batteries.

Reply #9 – January 15, 2019, 07:22:28 am

John while 25 degrees is not a temp most here seek the idea that the batteries will no longer take a charge below 25 degrees places a limit to the coaches use. AGM and gels have greatly reduced capacity but still are able to work to minus 30 F.

DavidS's 1200 amp hour bank may have enough capacity to allow various types of battery sourced heating of the compartment where the batteries are located. Or the batteries themselves directly. If needed.

I might consider putting any li-ion phosphate batteries into a climate controlled internal area.

In our 40' case maybe under the couch depending on height or in a closet? The couch in our coach has a aqua hot radiator under it.

Re: Three Battle Born LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Batteries or 4 8D Gel BK house batteries.

Reply #10 – January 15, 2019, 08:14:09 am

I considered mounting the BBs under the sofa where the Bose speaker is. There is just enough room if they are laying on their side for 3 to fit along with the wiring. I decided to just use the existing rack since we probably will never be in temps that low and didn't want to redo all of the cabling. If low or high temps are a problem then I'll cut a hole through the bulkhead to get some aquahot heat and/or cut a hole through the floor under the sofa for cooler air. I could always add a muffin fan with a thermocube.
That being said, I asked BB what was the lowest suggested discharge SOC and this is their response: "Our batteries are 100 useable amp hours. The inverter/charger settings will have a low voltage disconnect setting that we can set to charge once the batteries get down to 20% capacity. Although you can take them down to zero without hurting them it makes it so you aren't ever out of battery when you need it. Completely up to you, that's what I recommend."

Re: Three Battle Born LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Batteries or 4 8D Gel BK house batteries.

Reply #11 – January 15, 2019, 09:06:04 am

"Least compromise and lowest cost per cycle is mk gels. "

Here we go again with the lowest cost per cycle debate. I'll leave that to previous discussions but add that the "least compromise" is a very subjective judgement that will be different for everyone. Some would argue that the extra 130lbs per battery over LiFePo4 batteries is a significant compromise. Add the many other benefits of LiFePo4 over AGM or Gel, taking into account the low temperature charging limitation, and it's hard to conclude that Gels are the least compromise for everyone. Do your research, understand all of the facts, and decide what is best for yourself.

Re: Three Battle Born LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Batteries or 4 8D Gel BK house batteries.

Reply #12 – January 15, 2019, 10:18:55 am

I have 4 battleborn lithium batteries in my coach and love them. However, I boondock about 70 % of the time. The batteries have 100 amp hours of usable power. The batteries are actually bigger than 100 amp hours and have a built in cushion and battery management system to insure they are not damaged by depleting them to 100% which will kill a lithium battery. As for the cold, this only affects the charging, and I have yet to have a problem with this even when I was using them in an aluminum battery box on the tongue of my 21 foot trailer. If the cold is a worry for you, just install a 12 volt heater and insulation in your battery box. In my new to me foretravel the original battery box is in the same compartment as the fuel tanks. I installed my batteries there and have yet to see temperatures below 50 degrees F in outside temps below 30 F. If you boondock a lot then lithium is the way to go. They charge faster, have hardly any effect from Peukett's law, suffer no ill effects if they are not fully charged and your solar will be more effective because it will charge your batteries at the max possible output until they are fully charged unlike lead acid. I do agree that if you spend most of your time plugged in then lithium is probably not for you, but if you boondock even a little bit then you will love lithium. By the way if you are a veteran, you can get a 10% discount on battle born batteries. Just call them up to place your order and tell them you are a veteran.

Not to hijack thread, but David where did you get 1200 amp hours of lithium with built in bms for under 5 grand ?

Re: Three Battle Born LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Batteries or 4 8D Gel BK house batteries.

Reply #13 – January 15, 2019, 11:38:15 am

BattleBorn's web site is not clear on the 100 amp hr capacity. I certainly didn't find anywhere where it says there is an extra 20% capacity hidden away. One place it says you can discharge to 100% "depth of discharge" or 100 amp hrs apparently and still get 3000 or more cycles. Another place it says about 100%. Cycles go up with less deep discarge. Other sources suggest 80-90% is a good practical limit. If you really need 400 amp hrs then a but of reserve capacity would be OK.

AGM batteries have a longer life if they have a shallower discharge each cycle, no more than 50%, better fir a longer life at 25-30%.

These choices are very subjective. Knowing what your usage is on average over time and peaks helps you size and balance the different element better. Each of us gets to choose for ourselves what we think works best for us.

Re: Three Battle Born LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Batteries or 4 8D Gel BK house batteries.

Reply #14 – January 15, 2019, 11:40:12 am

12 volt mattress pad - Penelusuran Google
Used one of these in unheated truck camper for years, to keep me warm at night, have it in the coach now in case I have to keep my batteries above freezing to charge them. Uses about 75 watts when on.
The other day I was at 100% SOC, so unplugged and left everything on until my battery monitor said I had discharged 200 amp hours. I then set my inverter/charger at 30 amp input which allowed it to charge at its max rate of 120 amps, so lit off generator and started charging. It was a sunny day, so I was producing about 50 amps of solar as well. In about an hour and 1/2, I was back to 100% and solar controllers went from bulk to float. and I shut charger and generator off.

I wonder how long I would have had to run generator to charge gels or agm's to 100%?

Of course, unlike lead acid batteries, it is not ever necessary to bring the battle born's to 100% once you have synchronized them to your battery monitor.

Re: Three Battle Born LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Batteries or 4 8D Gel BK house batteries.

Reply #15 – January 15, 2019, 12:10:09 pm

These links confirm BattleBorn's intent to utilize the full 100ah of rated power.
How do I size a Li-ion battery bank for my system? - Battle Born Batteries
https://battlebornbatteries.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/BB10012-Cut-Sheet.pdf

They also clearly quote the usable capacity at 100ah and lifecycle cost/AH at only $0.35 here.
Breaking down the better battery - Battle Born Batteries

This was all confirmed in several phone conversations with them as well. They are very helpful & I'd recommend anyone calling them with any questions you might have.

Re: Three Battle Born LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Batteries or 4 8D Gel BK house batteries.

Reply #16 – January 15, 2019, 12:47:44 pm

Quote from: jbeem – January 15, 2019, 10:18:55 am

I have 4 battleborn lithium batteries in my coach and love them. However, I boondock about 70 % of the time. The batteries have 100 amp hours of usable power. The batteries are actually bigger than 100 amp hours and have a built in cushion and battery management system to insure they are not damaged by depleting them to 100% which will kill a lithium battery. As for the cold, this only affects the charging, and I have yet to have a problem with this even when I was using them in an aluminum battery box on the tongue of my 21 foot trailer. If the cold is a worry for you, just install a 12 volt heater and insulation in your battery box. In my new to me foretravel the original battery box is in the same compartment as the fuel tanks. I installed my batteries there and have yet to see temperatures below 50 degrees F in outside temps below 30 F. If you boondock a lot then lithium is the way to go. They charge faster, have hardly any effect from Peukett's law, suffer no ill effects if they are not fully charged and your solar will be more effective because it will charge your batteries at the max possible output until they are fully charged unlike lead acid. I do agree that if you spend most of your time plugged in then lithium is probably not for you, but if you boondock even a little bit then you will love lithium. By the way if you are a veteran, you can get a 10% discount on battle born batteries. Just call them up to place your order and tell them you are a veteran.

Not to hijack thread, but David where did you get 1200 amp hours of lithium with built in bms for under 5 grand ?

Thanks for the info, just ordered two more blem's and got the military discount as well. They asked me if I was running series or parallel, because they would match the batteries if running in series, but would not be necessary in parallel. good to know if you are doing a 48 or 72 volt system.

Re: Three Battle Born LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Batteries or 4 8D Gel BK house batteries.

Reply #17 – January 15, 2019, 12:59:49 pm

So Jim, do they still have blems in stock? Mind sharing what price?

Re: Three Battle Born LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Batteries or 4 8D Gel BK house batteries.

Reply #18 – January 15, 2019, 01:05:08 pm

Quote from: folivier – January 15, 2019, 12:59:49 pm

So Jim, do they still have blems in stock? Mind sharing what price?

They have 2 left, with va discount, $800 each.

Re: Three Battle Born LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Batteries or 4 8D Gel BK house batteries.

Reply #19 – January 15, 2019, 01:27:53 pm

The cost per cycle reference was between flooded cells, mk agm's and mk gels. Their products.

The idea of li-ion phosphate is excellent. Good ideas for temp workarounds. Thanks.

Our electric bikes use 36 Panasonic li-ion phosphate cells in each of their batteries. Work great

Lots of good info here.

The quicker recharge would be a definite advantage for gen run time.

Lots of coach bucks to build a matching system.

Rumored that panasonic is investigating newer type of batteries.

I assume that might be dr goodenough's newer design than li-ion.

But that's in the future, if at all.

Affiliate Notice