Starter Issues

Topic: Starter Issues (Read 1703 times) previous topic - next topic

Starter Issues

May 05, 2019, 03:30:28 pm

Traveled from Florida to Our home base in Illinois on Thursday. Today I wanted to start the coach and nothing. I checked power on the large 12v lug on the starter and we have power. We tested the power on the the solenoid 12v luv on the starter while the wife turned the key and we have power. I concluded we need a solenoid. I decided to tap the solenoid with a hammer while my wife turned the key to see if I can get it to start and noticed sparks coming out of the base of the large 12v lug on the solenoid. I was able to move it enough to get it started, aired up and safety blocks. My initial thought was to just change the solenoid on the old starter. Looking at the solenoid there are 3 small screws at the base of the solenoid, with one on the engine side of the starter. They are small and rusted. If I have to pull the starter to change the solenoid then I feel I should up grade the starter to a Delco Remy Heavy Duty Gear Reduction Starter. It will be much lighter than the original and turn the engine faster.

Questions:
1. Anyone know the starter model in a 1999 U320, Cummins M11 Celect Plus?
2. Is the upgrade a good choice?
3. What do I do with the old starter if I purchase the upgrade?
4. Can I buy the solenoid only for the old starter?
4. Ideas and issues with removing the old starter.
5. Anyone know where the Auxiliary Start Relay is on a 1999 320?

Re: Starter Issues

Reply #1 – May 05, 2019, 03:52:48 pm

The starters a very generic. The allen screws let them be clocked for different applications. My International crane starter is the same as on my coach. The solenoids don't come off by just removing the 3 screws. There is a plug on the end of the starter that gives access to remove the final stud that holds it on. I would recommend finding a truck supply and exchanging it solenoid and all.

Re: Starter Issues

Reply #2 – May 05, 2019, 04:38:55 pm

Check the cable connections on the solenoid, may just be a lose connection.

Re: Starter Issues

Reply #3 – May 05, 2019, 04:54:53 pm

Craneman,
Do you have a part number. Is it in the 42MT family?

Looking at the starter I was able to find this tag on the starter. Hard to read the part number. Picture attached. Also attached is a picture of a starter I found but don't know if it's correct.
John M

Re: Starter Issues

Reply #4 – May 05, 2019, 04:57:50 pm

Gary,
Cable connections are tight. Stud on solenoid is loose.
John M.

Re: Starter Issues

Reply #5 – May 05, 2019, 05:25:15 pm

Another search using the tag on my starter which I believe is P/N 195830 leads me to the Delco Remy 39MT Heavy Duty Gear Reduction Starter. See attachment. Just want to be sure.
John M

Re: Starter Issues

Reply #6 – May 05, 2019, 05:32:16 pm

John, I had my starter rebuilt, was going to replace with upgrade but a Tech friend told me the new starters were aluminum and the housing around shaft where the starter gear engages would egg shape. he suggested the re-build would last longer and give less problems than a new one. I'm no expert but I have had starters on tractors that were not putting out near this much torque egg shape so I went with rebuild. Don't remember total price but it was less than new (but they did have it for 2 or 3 days)
Chris

Re: Starter Issues

Reply #7 – May 05, 2019, 06:35:26 pm

The attachment you posted has 3 different pinion configurations you need to count the teeth when you pull the starter. I will try to find the info in my files if you plan to but it first.

mine were 11 teeth on the pinion.

Re: Starter Issues

Reply #8 – May 05, 2019, 07:11:40 pm

Quote from: craneman – May 05, 2019, 06:35:26 pm

The attachment you posted has 3 different pinion configurations you need to count the teeth when you pull the starter. I will try to find the info in my files if you plan to but it first.

mine were 11 teeth on the pinion.

Pulling the starter tomorrow morning. I have a place I can go to tomorrow, Action Truck Parts.
John M

Re: Starter Issues

Reply #9 – May 05, 2019, 07:34:05 pm

Quote from: John Morales – May 05, 2019, 07:11:40 pm

Pulling the starter tomorrow morning. I have a place I can go to tomorrow, Action Truck Parts.
John M

The upper back bolt probably is a 5/8 12 pt head use a long 1/2" drive extension and an air gun to get that one

Re: Starter Issues

Reply #10 – May 05, 2019, 07:44:18 pm

Quote from: craneman – May 05, 2019, 07:34:05 pm

The upper back bolt probably is a 5/8 12 pt head use a long 1/2" drive extension and an air gun to get that one

We don't have an air gun. We will have to work with a breaker bar and see how it goes. Thanks for the info.
John M.

Re: Starter Issues

Reply #11 – May 05, 2019, 09:25:12 pm

Used my harbor freight really long braker bar yesterday to remove large nuts from a dirt bike motor I was rebuilding.

Much easier with a really long bar. Thanks for the post here at a sale price.

Re: Starter Issues

Reply #12 – May 05, 2019, 11:20:16 pm

Starter on our ISM died a couple of years ago, in the driveway at home. It was always slow to start since we bought the coach. After installing the new starter it starts great, the engine turns over twice as fast as before. Bought a new starter at a local truck supply. No core charge, they don't sell rebuilds. It was around $350 which was very reasonable for a big starter.
The three mounting bolts were obscenely tight. Required a heavy duty breaker bar, 12 point socket, long extentions and long cheater, 1/2 inch impact wouldn't break them loose. The top bolt closest to the block was a bear to get loose. The starters pretty heavy and an awkward location on the ISM (M11).

Re: Starter Issues

Reply #13 – May 06, 2019, 07:03:33 am

Quote from: David Bethard – May 05, 2019, 11:20:16 pm

The three mounting bolts were obscenely tight. Required a heavy duty breaker bar, 12 point socket, long extentions and long cheater, 1/2 inch impact wouldn't break them loose. The top bolt closest to the block was a bear to get loose. The starters pretty heavy and an awkward location on the ISM (M11).

David,
Thanks for the info! It's going to be a heavy challenge.
John M.

Re: Starter Issues

Reply #14 – May 06, 2019, 07:45:47 am

John, I had to replace mine last year. Similar problems you had. I did a write up about a year ago. I couldn't get mine to start and raise up, it was a real bear to get the top bolt loose. Ended up with a 5/8 socket, 12" extension, long handle ratchet and a cheater pipe on that. If I could have it raised like yours, much easier, but still will need the extra length for torque.

I replaced with a Delco Remy 39mt. About half the weight. Spins the engine exceptionally well compared to the old one. It has a different shape slightly and makes getting to the bolts much easier. I had to pull the starter this weekend to work on my fuel lines, took minutes to remove, another to put back on. The coach was raised which helped a lot compared to last year.

I wouldn't mess with the solenoid, if it was me. Replace the starter and be done with it. It will probably outlast the coach.

Larry

Re: Starter Issues

Reply #15 – May 06, 2019, 08:20:07 am

Larry,
Thanks for the info and advice.
John M

Re: Starter Issues

Reply #16 – May 06, 2019, 08:51:25 am

Quote from: ohsonew – May 06, 2019, 07:45:47 am

I couldn't get mine to start and raise up, it was a real bear to get the top bolt loose. ...... If I could have it raised like yours, much easier, but still will need the extra length for torque.

FYI...You can raise the coach without starting the engine if you have access to an external air compressor. You just need 2 male quick connections to make an adapter and feed the air back through your coach's external air port. Just make sure that your compressor air pressure is not too high or you'll trip the dump valve on your dryer. No harm done as the valve will reset but best not to over-pressurize the system.

Re: Starter Issues

Reply #17 – May 06, 2019, 12:39:18 pm

We looped a wide long strap around frame and starter allowing a 2^nd person to pull from outside the coach to life the starter weight while I, underneath loosened bolts and then again when installing a new starter.

We had a slow starting issue for a year and after doing many things including rebuilding the starter, new ground cable, clean terminals, etc, with nothing totally fixing the problem. But a new Delco-Remy starter fixed the issue and we now start great. Maybe a Delco-Remy factory rebuilt starter could also have worked.

Re: Starter Issues

Reply #18 – May 06, 2019, 03:05:39 pm

Quote from: Barry & Cindy – May 06, 2019, 12:39:18 pm

We looped a wide long strap around frame and starter allowing a 2^nd person to pull from outside the coach to life the starter weight while I, underneath loosened bolts and then again when installing a new starter.

Barry,
I plan to do same. I'm also going to also install a stud in one of the bolt hole location to help in the installation.
Thanks for the info!
John M.

Re: Starter Issues

Reply #19 – May 06, 2019, 03:19:05 pm

Good luck! I have a slow starting starter too

Re: Starter Issues

Reply #20 – May 06, 2019, 06:12:34 pm

Quote from: hdff – May 06, 2019, 03:19:05 pm

Good luck! I have a slow starting starter too

Keith,
You might want to change it before it leaves you hanging. The attached starter PDF is what's going in, PN 8200308
John M

Re: Starter Issues

Reply #21 – May 06, 2019, 06:30:46 pm

Be sure you "clock" it to match the old one before you start putting it in.

Re: Starter Issues

Reply #22 – May 06, 2019, 07:32:31 pm

John, the headless stud is a great idea. Make it long enough and maybe cut a screwdriver slot in the end to later remove it with weight on the threads.

Much interested in reduction gear starter, which we did not install.

Re: Starter Issues

Reply #23 – May 06, 2019, 07:42:29 pm

A couple of years ago I had to have ours rebuilt as it stopped working. Tech said the original was a good one and he rebuilt it in 4hrs as bushings caused armature to get stuck. Better than new now. We were passing thru Montana and a napa guy gave me his phone and info to have this shop do rebuild. All he does is starter's and alternators. Excellent place.
JohnH

Re: Starter Issues

Reply #24 – May 06, 2019, 09:39:49 pm

Quote from: craneman – May 06, 2019, 06:30:46 pm

Be sure you "clock" it to match the old one before you start putting it in.

Chuck,
Never had to worry about clocking the starter so I looked it up. Thanks to the internet and Youtube we can get educated. Thanks for the info. Here is the Youtube on clocking.
John M.

Clocking a Gear Reduction 39MT Starter | Delco Remy Product Tech Tip - YouTube

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