Question about financing older coaches

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Re: Question about financing older coaches

Reply #25 – May 26, 2019, 09:54:09 pm

Your plan has merit but maybe with some modification. It sounds like you've found a rv site, done the math, and living there would save you money...build some equity, over paying rent. Good. But a couple thorns are the cost of this coach, taxes, insurance.

My suggestion, buy a fully depreciated used pull trailer, fifth wheel, whatever and have it moved onto your rental lot. No need to buy a truck, plenty of folks who can reasonably move it when needed. Save your money and when you're free to travel there'll be a Foretravel for you. You'll probably find it very easy to sell anything reasonably priced and already sitting on a rental lot.

Why not do it with this coach? One big reason....they don't like to sit. The $5K worth of tires on it don't like to sit either, and are steadily aging out while stationary.They need to be run frequently which given your location in LA, and the fact that you're taking your house for a drive, quite a chore. This is a great coach....but it's also a very complicated coach compared to a basic non slide non aquahot non electronic engine Foretravel. May want to consider that as well.

Re: Question about financing older coaches

Reply #26 – May 27, 2019, 01:30:31 pm

I would not want the stress of buying something I could not afford, its a consumer mentality and to consume is to destroy! Not to be harsh, however, wisdom should prevail in contemplating an issue that is presenting roadblocks already. Life is making adjustments that make sense in my mind. People believe in many things, but there is a lie in every belief.

Re: Question about financing older coaches

Reply #27 – May 27, 2019, 01:52:11 pm

To complex of an issue for me to repeat some of what's already been said. I do see merit in buying something at some point. Acquiring something you really want and at the same time off setting the high LA rent. Not sure this is the time or a coach of this caliber is the way best for you at the time but know this Adam,There will Always be a coach that will be jaw dropping Gorgeous and well maintained available so don't rush the time and potentially spoil the experience for you.

Re: Question about financing older coaches

Reply #28 – May 27, 2019, 05:50:13 pm

Quote from: Chuck Pearson – May 26, 2019, 09:54:09 pm

Why not do it with this coach? One big reason....they don't like to sit. The $5K worth of tires on it don't like to sit either, and are steadily aging out while stationary.They need to be run frequently which given your location in LA, and the fact that you're taking your house for a drive, quite a chore. This is a great coach....but it's also a very complicated coach compared to a basic non slide non aquahot non electronic engine Foretravel. May want to consider that as well.

These coaches were definitely "made to run"! Ours is exceptionally comfortable at 70 MPH. It may be my imagination but I can almost hear it begging me to take it out if it sits for too long a period! Seriously, it's far better to try to wear it out than to let it just sit. If you want/need something just to live in then there are probably other far better choices.

Re: Question about financing older coaches

Reply #29 – May 27, 2019, 05:53:57 pm

I really appreciate all of your wonderful feedback!

DJ - I know it is a much better decision to invest in a sticks and bricks home and have indeed considered such an option. Unfortunately in los angeles, I would be stretched thin for a mortgage on a crappy house needing lots of repairs and in a questionable neighborhood. Moving away from los angeles is not an option for me at this time. So the decision is really should I give ALL of my money away to someone else in rent (i.e. no investment, but also no financial risk for unexpected expensive repairs) or put that same amount of money into an RV and associated costs but understanding I am exposed to much more risk. In the latter, I would still be throwing away money in initial sales tax (10k - ouch!), a depreciating asset, bank interest, space rent, and maintenance costs, but I would at least be gaining some amount of equity. Indeed it would be a financial loss no matter which way you slice it, but given the numbers I have crunched I would be throwing away less money overall than renting (as long as I do it for at least a year or so) and it would afford me flexibility in many other ways that I would appreciate.

Bigdog - Indeed I am looking at older foretravel coaches as well as a few other makers known for good quality builds - even if not quite as good as foretravel - such as country coaches, newmars, monacos, etc.. Unfortunately there aren't many around that would be easy to see. It doesn't make sense for me to make a trip to texas, arizona, florida or oregon where there are more options unless I was likely going to purchase one and none of the available coaches I have seen yet have crossed that threshold. If I had more experience with any of these coaches it would be easier to cross that threshold without seeing it in person but at this point, I still need to kick the tires and preferably meet the owner before I would feel comfortable. If I don't pull the trigger on Barry's coach, I would expect that it might be a while before I found one I could see and feel comfortable with. I am okay with that and may end up doing that, but I am trying to see if it makes sense to purchase Barry's coach right now.

Chuck & Jeannie - Yes I have been trying to consider all costs as realistically as possible. I am a numbers guy which is part of why I had the other post about the market value of Barry's coach. I have been crunching numbers to try to make as informed a decision as I can. I have budgeted out the space rent, insurance, travel costs, all the predictable expenses (tires every 6 years, house batteries every 5, oil changes, etc), etc and would still have a bit of a financial buffer to be able to put money away towards building an emergency fund and savings in general. If I were to run into a major expense within the first year, I may have to charge it but I have enough credit to cover the 10-15k that people suggest I have cash for. Not ideal given credit card interest rates, but at least viable in an emergency and until I build my emergency fund.

I will admit that I know my estimates could be wrong. Indeed, your post got me to rethink what actual insurance costs would be in los angeles. I had been using numbers that seemed pretty consistent across various blogs reporting typical full time expenses, so your comment got me to worry for a bit. Since then I have received several quotes and while there is a range (130-250) and it will require a fair bit of research to choose the appropriate coverage (including comprehensive), I have taken conservative estimates and included that in my number crunching. That being said, I absolutely expect I will be wrong about some of these estimates. I am just trying to minimize that as much as possible by being as informed as possible. If circumstances were different I would be waiting longer to do further research and saving more and in the end I may decide that it is better for me to wait anyway, but right now I am still seriously considering purchasing Barry's coach.

Phred - The math is rather simple and it would be obvious to most 5th graders: Living in Los Angeles is a terrible financial decision considering the alternatives. In fact many of my friends and family (all of which have made it beyond 5th grade

) have made the decision to leave LA for precisely those reasons. For me, however, unfortunately it isn't a realistic option for me to leave LA at this time.

Other Chuck (without Jeannie)

and Dub - I am keeping my mind open but I plan on being fairly mobile so a 5th wheel is less appealing. I am planning on partly living in the RV and partially with family that I would be very close to. I could live completely with family, but since I am no longer a child and have lived on my own for most of my life, I still need my own place and a way to retreat if needed so this seems to be a good option. Renting would put me farther from family and cost more. Being close to family given certain circumstances right now is important to me as long as I can figure out a way to do it reasonably. I am still considering just doing the more "normal" thing and renting a place that isn't too far, so this is just my way of considering a potentially unconventional but possibly viable option.

I recognize that I am this situation that is not ideal. I have seen a coach that is very appealing to me personally, yet it is one of the first I have seen and I haven't been looking that long so it is hard to fully appreciate how rare this opportunity is. I can see that it might not be as rare as I think it is right now and if I wait 6 months to a year I might find several others that would be as good of a deal or better in different ways, but this opportunity has presented itself now and I can't ask Barry to hold it for me for 6 months while I get a better feel for what is out there and how satisfied I might be with another coach.

Again, while I may still be leaning toward the purchase if I can swing it, there is still a lot for me to think about and research and even if I decide to buy it, it won't be without a lot more serious consideration of alternatives. I am still very much considering less expensive older and simpler coaches and may decide I just don't want to take the risk with Barry's more expensive coach, but I am still just trying to gather information to be as informed as possible.

cubesphere - many are giving similar advice. I am starting to think you guys just don't want me to be part of your community!!! I am just kidding of course. I really do appreciate all of the feedback and many of you have expressed your concern. I recognize it is out of good will trying to caution me against making a decision many might feel would be a mistake. I might end up agreeing that it is far too risky and wouldn't want to risk such a large mistake, but I am just trying to gather information at this point. The final decision will not be made lightly and given the abundance of caution being advised in this forum, I will be especially vigilant.

Again thank you all for your informative comments.

I am still hoping to hear more about possible lenders for older RVs. I have checked many different credit unions and banks and so far the only one that is possible is USAA up to 100k.

Adam

Re: Question about financing older coaches

Reply #30 – May 27, 2019, 05:58:26 pm

Quote from: D.J. Osborn – May 27, 2019, 05:50:13 pm

These coaches were definitely "made to run"! Ours is exceptionally comfortable at 70 MPH. It may be my imagination but I can almost hear it begging me to take it out if it sits for too long a period! Seriously, it's far better to try to wear it out than to let it just sit. If you want/need something just to live in then there are probably other far better choices.

Indeed I hope to give it a fair amount of exercise. Even when I will be busy working and have to stay local, I plan to take it out for a short trip at least 1-2 times per month. Then when school is not in session during summer, winter and spring breaks I plan on travelling a fair bit more. I wouldn't want it to sit for too long either.

Adam

Re: Question about financing older coaches

Reply #31 – May 27, 2019, 06:17:17 pm

Adam in many ways you remind me of myself when I was young. People who had lots of experience would try and guide me in what to do. Everyone has given you sound advise about every facit of motor home ownership. Now we can't do much but wish you the best and good luck. Remember there are wonderful people on the forum to help along your Journey.

Re: Question about financing older coaches

Reply #32 – May 28, 2019, 09:37:05 am

Lots of good advice above. You can see where I shook out when I was buying.

Buy the best (newest) Foretravel you can afford. I'm no Dave Ramsey, but it seems like you should look at something lower-priced.

It's no fun being a slave (or indentured servant) to your toys. So I've heard.

Best of luck - now you have me wanting to buy Barry's coach!! It's a bargain at that price.

Chris

Re: Question about financing older coaches

Reply #33 – May 28, 2019, 09:50:01 am

Ill jump in and give a little here also... So many times we go through life wondering, thinking, hoping.... But we never DO.. If you have your heart set on this coach (it is a good one) then buy it at long as you feel comfortable with the maintenance and upkeep and you think you are able to cover any big surprises... Now I dont think you will have a problem with the Engine or Trans as Mine has 227k on it but its been maintained ... it will be the small stuff if not taken care of that will eat you up in Money and time... MY general consensus would be to the group as to what they have worked on or replaced in the last 5 years.. Just to get an idea.. Like what has already been said I have more into modern changes than I do in upkeep.. Its a bug that once bitten is not easily satisfied...

If your heart is set and your comfortable? Get it and enjoy life.. its to short to stress over I shoulda coulda but I didnt... If your not sure.. Move on to the one you really like..

ITs the meaning in life..... We all understand how this coach was cared for... Buy it as I dont think you will be disappointed.

Re: Question about financing older coaches

Reply #34 – May 28, 2019, 10:41:56 am

I realize I am going against current philosophy, but I am close to 77 now so I come from "the older generation" with different attitudes.
A friend once told me back around 1967 that if I had to make payments on my "toys" then I couldn't afford them.
Guess it stuck in my mind because I have tried to follow that advice ever since.
I kind of wonder whether these newer coaches with all the components that seem to be "timing out" after a few years and require thousands and thousands of dollars to bring back up to "spec" will be worth the expense of "upgrading" down the road. The complexity of these newer rigs requires expertise and tools that not everyone has or has access to.
I sure do love our simple, durable old 1989 coach that seems to go on forever without requiring complex major service or expensive replacement parts. If we sold ours today, all a new owner would have to do is replace the tires as they will time out next year. Oh, the fuel tank would be full!! Always is.
Old, Old adage (hell, I'm old too!!): "Simple is better!!"

Re: Question about financing older coaches

Reply #35 – May 28, 2019, 10:50:44 am

If you have lots of money and can eat the depreciation, buy it, love it . It will drop in cash value as they all age . You will also have a large financial exposure @ 100g.
In my case I cannot afford to walk away from a 100G cash box on wheels. I limit my financial exposure to what I can stand to light on fire .
I 've been big and I've been small . Small is better with less stress IMHO.

Re: Question about financing older coaches

Reply #36 – May 28, 2019, 06:11:19 pm

Your a professor, take a financial professor to lunch and ask his opinion, beware he will probably want to throw a net over you and have you hospitalized for your intentions.
As an investment, which it is, if you finance the amount and percentage your talking about, a RV is a huge no go!
Nothing drops faster in value, or market, than a RV or boat when the economy flattens out or recedes, or fuel prices rise.
Like stated earlier in another post, with a RV of this age and value if you can't watch it burn, you can't afford it.

Re: Question about financing older coaches

Reply #37 – May 28, 2019, 06:52:51 pm

Looks like the OP has his mind set.
------------------------------------------------------------

- Enjoy your FT and your coming adventures.

- And - will be looking forward to hearing from you from time to time on the FoFum.

Re: Question about financing older coaches

Reply #38 – May 28, 2019, 08:20:31 pm

I have lived in so cal since 1951.

I know of no place to park and live in a coach within 100 miles cheaply here.

Something I missed?

Re: Question about financing older coaches

Reply #39 – May 28, 2019, 10:16:04 pm

I found some areas in San Diego and Los Angeles that had rows of Rv's parked with tents all over.. looked pretty Cheap to me..

Re: Question about financing older coaches

Reply #40 – May 28, 2019, 10:19:10 pm

Quote from: Caflashbob – May 28, 2019, 08:20:31 pm

I have lived in so cal since 1951.

I know of no place to park and live in a coach within 100 miles cheaply here.

Something I missed?

Down town LA is free now, they past a law you can park any public place and not be harassed
Just sayin Bob

Re: Question about financing older coaches

Reply #41 – May 28, 2019, 10:57:27 pm

How do you dump and fill? Run gen?

Wow. We are camping on the streets....

The idea of purchasing a fancy rv to live on the public streets is a stretch for me.

Re: Question about financing older coaches

Reply #42 – May 28, 2019, 11:23:02 pm

Quote from: Caflashbob – May 28, 2019, 10:57:27 pm

How do you dump and fill? Run gen?

Wow. We are camping on the streets....

The idea of purchasing a fancy rv to live on the public streets is a stretch for me.

Maybe for you but not Hundreds of others... If they dont have an Rv they use a tent or other means of shelter.. Maybe they dump in the streets.. Explains some of the smell maybe

Re: Question about financing older coaches

Reply #43 – May 28, 2019, 11:26:13 pm

I have driven through la many times recently. Tents everywhere. Blue tarps. We cruise through the west coast regularly.

Doesn't mean I like it. Depressing

Re: Question about financing older coaches

Reply #44 – May 29, 2019, 01:14:32 am

Quote from: DavidS – May 28, 2019, 11:23:02 pm

Maybe for you but not Hundreds of others... If they dont have an Rv they use a tent or other means of shelter.. Maybe they dump in the streets.. Explains some of the smell maybe

Quote from: gracerace – May 28, 2019, 10:19:10 pm

Down town LA is free now, they past a law you can park any public place and not be harassed
Just sayin Bob

My first thought is how much longer is this going to last. And why exactly would an entity want to do this,

Quote from: DavidS – May 28, 2019, 11:23:02 pm

Maybe for you but not Hundreds of others... If they dont have an Rv they use a tent or other means of shelter.. Maybe they dump in the streets.. Explains some of the smell maybe

Is CA rolling all of the dice hoping all of these people pay state and local taxes to keep them afloat?

Re: Question about financing older coaches

Reply #45 – May 29, 2019, 08:02:33 am

Quote from: niteowl099 – May 27, 2019, 03:24:58 pm

- I will be semi-full timing with a fair amount of travel. Semi-full timing because where I would be keeping the motorhome would be almost next door to family and would spend a fair amount of time in their sticks and bricks home.

Apparently he has a place to keep the coach which has nothing to do with financing so lets get back on track.

Mike

Re: Question about financing older coaches

Reply #46 – May 29, 2019, 09:13:32 am

Phred, Maybe they financed their coaches also and maybe he could ask them... With that said Credit union is the best way but they want 80/20 equity you will need to put down the 20% typically to make them happy.. when doing nada add all the options to the vehicle to make the totals as high as possible with the type of Coach.. Its fudgeable a little as no inspection is typically needed and they will not know every detail in the coach if they did.. Bankers make a lot of the world go round. Make them happy and everyone beneath them is happy

Re: Question about financing older coaches

Reply #47 – May 29, 2019, 10:55:52 pm

From earlier posts he apparently could not do 80/20 or pay registration fees or taxes, so 110% loan or more, doesn't have money to travel to look at a different coach. Maybe he's looking for a sponser IDK

Re: Question about financing older coaches

Reply #48 – May 29, 2019, 11:04:04 pm

Just heard from Barry that coach is going to MOT.

Re: Question about financing older coaches

Reply #49 – May 30, 2019, 02:58:43 pm

Hi everyone,

Wow, I had no idea that I would receive so many responses when I first posted to this forum. I have been busy with work (grading sucks!) so it is hard to keep up with it all! I appreciate everyone taking the time to consider my posts and give their thoughts.

It turns out that Barry was able to negotiate a pretty good deal with MOT that I wouldn't have been able to compete with, so his coach is no longer on the table.

In many ways this is a relief because as I had mentioned it would be difficult to finance at his asking price, but I think I was getting close. I will now have much more time to do research and purchase something that wouldn't be as much of a stretch (to initially finance, not the monthly payments). That being said, I am pretty confident that I will probably not be able to find another coach that will have as much value to me personally for anywhere near what I could have purchased it from him at. So much of what Barry has done would be things I would have wanted to do and he has spent years doing them. Since I am not retired, it would take me much longer to do the same things. His documentation and spare parts alone is something that is tremendously valuable.

However, even though I recognized how much value I would be getting, I was still nervous because it is a big financial decision and would be a major lifestyle change as well. Part of my nervousness came from the fact that the value of the coach would not be represented not only in the financing but also in the insurance. If something happened the coach and it was totalled or stolen, then insurance would only pay back up to NADA value leaving me without a home and having to continue to make payments making it harder to get an new home. There are other risks such as having to perform an unexpected major repair but given the history of the coach, Barry's upkeep and records, I felt it was a reasonable risk to take.

I was also nervous since the coach wasn't selling and while I honestly had no doubt that the right buyer would come along eventually and that they would even be willing to pay Barry's original asking price of 125k or higher, I just wasn't sure how long that would take given the available pool of buyers in the current market. So if in a year from now I decided full-timing wasn't right for me, I wouldn't want to be stuck with the decisions to wait 6 months to a year to find the right buyer or be forced to sell it for significantly less than it's depreciated value and still have to pay off the difference. I had calculated a reasonable depreciation of about 10% and figured that into my budget, but if I lost 15-20% or more that would be hard to absorb. So in two different scenarios, I would be left having to make payments without a home making it harder to have a home, in the latter case of having to resell it much lower than the true depreciated value or having it stolen or totalled and insurance only covering NADA value.

BTW Phred, I could indeed pay the registration and taxes of around 10k but that would eat up all my cash so I wouldn't have much left to pay toward a downpayment on the coach and why I was asking about different lenders. I have the money and would be willing to travel to purchase a motorhome if I had confidence I was likely to purchase one if I did make the trip. However, at this point I still would need to see the motorhome and talk to the owner (preferably in person) before I would ever have that confidence. With time and after seeing more motorhomes, I imagine I would have more confidence about how likely I would be to buy without needing to see the motorhome in person before making a trip to see it. I know there is always a risk to take a trip and not make a purchase, but it doesn't make sense to make a trip to just window shop, at least not right now.

To all of those concerned, no I was not planning on staying on public streets. I have a place where I can park it in a backyard cheaply and would often take it out on weekends to nearby RV parks that I could afford through membership programs (E.g. Passport america, thousand trails, etc.). At the current location, I would have to put in a sewer hookup and that might not be cheap but still could save me a fair amount of money in the long run. In the meantime, I would have to go to a dump station once or twice a week but I could manage. I would extend the time between dumps by taking showers and other water intensive tasks at a family member's home that would be practically next door.

Many have advised me about how terrible of an idea financing a motorhome is. I do agree but feel it is worse to rent in LA which is likely what I would do if I don't find a suitable motorhome. There are much better ways to invest including the obvious one of not investing in a depreciating asset such as an RV. However, many of you seem to be making certain assumptions and maybe do not fully appreciate my particular circumstances. As I currently see things, my options are:

1) Continue to throw 100% of my money away in high rents in Los Angeles
2) Get stretched thin to pay a mortgage on a crappy home in a questionable neighborhood in LA
3) Leave los angeles as many of my friends and family have done
4) Finance an RV that will lose value, throw money away on bank interest, space rent (though I have a cheap place to keep it), insurance, maintenance costs, etc. but still gain some amount of equity and have money left over to save.

As I currently see things, 1 (renting) is much worse than 4 (buying an RV) since all my money is thrown away, but of course doesn't have the same financial risks (part of why I was trying to gather information, to fully understand those risks). Also the overall costs, including budgeting for predictable costs (tires, batteries, etc) and related monthly RV expenses would still allow me to save up for unexpected costs and building up my savings in general. 2 (buying a crappy home in LA) is the best financial decision of the listed options as long as repairs don't bankrupt me, but the quality of life would be far far worse. I would be stuck in one place for years, and I would not have much of a financial buffer. 3 (leaving LA) is just not an option right now for many personal reasons. Many of you may be in different places physically and metaphorically in your life that make it hard to understand why I am considering such a bad financial decision, but for better or worse, I am not as scared of debt as many of you are. Although I fully understand the consequences and risks of being in debt. I am in a growth phase of my life where my earnings potential is only going up and if things work out well, I might be able to pay it off in 5 years or less. Trying to be as informed as possible and crunching a lot of numbers, it still seems like a better financial decision than just renting, just with significantly more risk.

In the end though, there is more to life than just calculating finances. This forum and the RV industry would not exist if it were. Everybody that has purchased an RV, or even a car for that matter, has made a bad financial decision. Some feel that going into debt to make a bad financial decision is worse than just paying cash to do so and in many ways I agree, but I still feel like it is a better option than renting especially since I can comfortably afford the payments. People often don't seem quite as insistent about not financing an automobile because they feel it is necessary.

For many of you, an RV is not necessary and is purely a luxury item that increases your quality of life, so you feel one should only pay for luxury items one can afford. I agree. Again, this would be serving as a home, not just a luxury item, so I feel it is more akin to going into debt for an automobile than taking a trip to vegas and putting everything on a credit card. Again, I am fully aware that I would be throwing my money away but I feel I would be throwing less of it away. Given the other options, I am willing and can afford to throw money away given the flexibility and quality of life it can provide.

I hope it hasn't seemed like I am being defensive as I am just trying to give a little more context on my particular situation. I have and will continue to keep an open mind and I truly appreciate everyone taking the time to read these posts and give their opinions. This has been a lively discussion and I appreciate everyone that contributed to it.

Now that I will have more time to do research and look at other motorhomes, I am not sure how active I will be on this forum since I won't be trying to make such an important decision in a limited amount of time and there aren't as many foretravels out there to consider. I will still be looking at foretravels and still hope that I can find a way to get one that is well suited for me. One of the perks of buying a foretravel will indeed be this forum. I really appreciate this forum and I would be looking forward to being a more permanent member of this community as an owner.

Again, I thank you all very much!!!

Adam

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