Inverter Question

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Inverter Question

July 27, 2019, 09:21:47 am

Reading the Foretravel manual I could not decide if the inverter uses power "by just been switched on"?
Or does no load on it leave it in stand by using minimal power? So should inverter be in off position as soon as you are finished using its 120 volt output
Thanks

Re: Inverter Question

Reply #1 – July 27, 2019, 09:38:24 am

Which one do you have,that would help with question,you can shut the inverter off to save battery but if your not plugged in to
power and you use any 12 volt device that will drain power.

Re: Inverter Question

Reply #2 – July 27, 2019, 09:47:03 am

It's a Hart inverter
Unplugged from shore power, Will inverter run down batteries when "switched on" but not been used by a coffee maker or other plugged in piece of equipment - in other words with no draw on it

Re: Inverter Question

Reply #3 – July 27, 2019, 09:50:20 am

Quote from: Irish – July 27, 2019, 09:21:47 am

Reading the Foretravel manual I could not decide if the inverter uses power "by just been switched on"?
Or does no load on it leave it in stand by using minimal power? So should inverter be in off position as soon as you are finished using its 120 volt output
Thanks

Inverters draw a little current even when not in use to make 120VAC, so yes, turning them off when not really needed helps save your battery charge. It's also why it is a good idea to have several smaller inverters to handle specific tasks rather than one large whole house inverter.

Re: Inverter Question

Reply #4 – July 27, 2019, 09:52:36 am

My old Trace inverter had two positions, one in standby where it sent a signal out every couple of seconds and if anything was turned on, it came to life or the other position where it was on all the time.

Our OEM Heart sucks lots of juice all the time so after we are done using it, I turn it off. If it were to be left on all night, it would probably flatten the batteries. That's why I just bought a new one, plus sine wave is nice. Will report on the installation, idle draw in a couple of days.

Pierce

Re: Inverter Question

Reply #5 – July 27, 2019, 10:05:00 am

Think the choice depends on how you use it,more dry camping I can see a use for 2 inverters,no dry camping why have 2 your batteries will always be charged.

Re: Inverter Question

Reply #6 – July 27, 2019, 10:50:34 am

Super thanks everyone
Question answered!

Re: Inverter Question

Reply #7 – July 27, 2019, 11:05:09 am

My refrigerator, coach PC, network gear, internet access devices, front TV, all of the front end electronics, mobile device chargers and two outlets are all on a single circuit with its own circuit breaker powered by a smaller Victron inverter all the time. It is like having an uninterruptible power supply. Never have anything shut down when switching power from one source to another. If we are plugged in we can shut the big inverter off. With solar we can is usually turn off the charger too. It can make $50 or more difference in metered electric costs per month.

Off grid we are good for pretty much unlimited time without the generator unless we want to use AC. Sort of the best of all worlds. Works well for us.

Re: Inverter Question

Reply #8 – July 27, 2019, 12:12:37 pm

Quote from: Roger & Susan in Home2 – July 27, 2019, 11:05:09 am

My refrigerator, coach PC, network gear, internet access devices, front TV, all of the front end electronics, mobile device chargers and two outlets are all on a single circuit with its own circuit breaker powered by a smaller Victron inverter all the time.

Do you guys know that you can still purchase books printed on paper?

Re: Inverter Question

Reply #9 – July 27, 2019, 01:05:09 pm

On all inverters the efficiency charts seems to show better percentages with a larger inverter running at lower loads?

Does the Victron system have the ability to show the inverters internal temps of any of its components and/or the battery temp?

Re: Inverter Question

Reply #10 – July 27, 2019, 01:39:43 pm

Quote from: Caflashbob – July 27, 2019, 01:05:09 pm

On all inverters the efficiency charts seems to show better percentages with a larger inverter running at lower loads?

I would hope so. 10% of 3000 watts = 300 watts. 10% of 300 watts is 30 watts. Big difference.

Re: Inverter Question

Reply #11 – July 27, 2019, 01:46:59 pm

Reply to #9,not sure on Victron but the Magnum can show 2 interanl temps and the battery temp.

Re: Inverter Question

Reply #12 – July 28, 2019, 12:30:22 pm

Interesting info from Victron.

The sales manager from Holland says they do not have an efficiency chart for their twelve volt inverters like they have for their 24 and 48 volt units.

The idea that no one ever tested it is ludicrous. Why they will not release that is a interesting point,

They told me to check with a local dealer?

I mentioned that their spec sheet shows 93% max and 94% max for another which is lower than their chart for the 24 volt units which max at 96% roughly.

But it's the same?

Re: Inverter Question

Reply #13 – July 28, 2019, 12:53:46 pm

Call AM solar and ask for Mitch

Re: Inverter Question

Reply #14 – July 28, 2019, 01:58:41 pm

Tim I am not that concerned about the exact efficiency as such.

DaveS brought up in his recent reply about perfection in the units. He mentioned marine use.

My questions here were how come all three USA manufacturered inverters have the less efficient much heavier transformer design and size which consumes more power idling by a extra amp roughly.

Ahhhh. Marine. Victron changed from dual transformers to a single for max efficiency. Great idea.

Marine.....oh you have a much cooler ambient temps though the inverter to compensate for the reduced heat sink of the unit,

I noticed in later than our foretravel that that coach had a compartment wall mounted inverter and in line with it was a orange enclosed fan feeding air into the inverter.

More electronic devices and a not as efficient as current household refer probably had the Magnum unit derate its power and turn off. Not good with food.

The Victron limiting factor according to its technical paper is the transformer on inverting and its mosfets on charging.

Single cooling fan. No temp read outs. Overheat light. Shutdown.

No way to know if it's derating or closer to a shutdown.

Marine. Cool air. White fiberglass boats.

If I was a true off grid camper the Victrons efficiency would be a great help.

But the units temp profile would lessen its advantages in high ambient temps up to the point of not being useable.

And in combo with the battle borns extreme cold or hot limits or stops their output.

My current thought would be to retain my magnum system for its gen auto start on both temps and batteries SOC and the mk gels ability to operate at both colder and hotter temps as an alternate system.

And maybe install a multipass for lighter loads and mild temps. And maybe the battle borns also.

Should be possible to be able to switch systems remotely.

Or understand the Victron has definite high temp and loads issues and work around them.

No Free lunch.

I thought in an emergency like the 30 year old Bluebirds I sold that it would be nice to be able to run at least one roof air off the alternator and inverter.

Birds did this in case of a gen failure, inverter on. Turn on a roof air. Started right up.

Has anyone with the recent hot weather had a Victron warning light come on on its panel?

I see no way to know what it's doing internally.

Magnum shows as was stated the mosfet and transformer and battery temps as that would show why and how much it's derating.

Now that I understand things I would be comfortable using the Victron with the magnum as a reserve.

We have another home in Las Vegas as a option and need to be able to take the coach there in summer conditions.

Battle borns and the Victron would probably limit that use.

90 % here would not be restricted by these conditions.

As long as I understand their possible limitations I have no issues with the units.

Re: Inverter Question

Reply #15 – July 28, 2019, 04:54:56 pm

Bob, sounds like you are being assimilated by Victron 😁

Re: Inverter Question

Reply #16 – July 28, 2019, 06:57:56 pm

Resistance is futile.

25 amp hours per 24 hours plus lower idle draw less consumption over 24 hours is 8-10% of our 375 amp hours useable.

Re: Inverter Question

Reply #17 – July 28, 2019, 08:56:55 pm

Quote from: Roger & Susan in Home2 – July 27, 2019, 11:05:09 am

My refrigerator, coach PC, network gear, internet access devices, front TV, all of the front end electronics, mobile device chargers and two outlets are all on a single circuit with its own circuit breaker powered by a smaller Victron inverter all the time.

What is the VA rating of the "smaller Victron Victron inverter '?

Re: Inverter Question

Reply #18 – July 28, 2019, 10:01:16 pm

My smaller Victron pure sine wave inverter is a Phoenix 800VA. It is connected into my Victron monitoring and control infrastructure. 650 watt continuous, 1500 watts peak. 90% efficiency, 6.5 watts zero load power use. With our residential refrigerator running, PC on, 28" monitor on, Network running internet access devices running, Echo Show on and DirecTV dish and Genie on is less than 400 watts peak. Most of the time it is closer to 140 watts average.

Re: Inverter Question

Reply #19 – July 28, 2019, 10:55:02 pm

I responded to Victron's response to my chart request that stated they had no chart or that it was the same as the 24/48 volt models by writing back and saying "35 engineers and no chart?,"

Roger its possible the bigger inverter at your loads may be even more efficient...

No way to know without their charts or personal testing.

Magnum shows their 12 volt units drop off as the load factor increases.

In the back of mind is to see what it would take to add a second Victron inverter just to power a residential refer if I were to put one in.

I had a 4024 magnum full wave a couple of years ago in my possession and I thought about keeping it but the inverter man stepped up and offered me a thousand for it as it tested perfect and I had the correct control panel for it and another rarer panel he wanted.

Sold.

Re: Inverter Question

Reply #20 – July 28, 2019, 11:02:34 pm

I use a slightly larger one because it also supplies the awning motors with power when necessary.
Xantrex prowatt 1000 watt. It used less than 800 milliamps [less than 10 watts] in idle mode.

Re: Inverter Question

Reply #21 – July 28, 2019, 11:22:54 pm

As I looked at the charts posted earlier the Victron inverters appear to have peak efficiencies as they approach their mid point in power output. I am typically running mine at about 1/3 continuous rated output. It seems like a good fit. They now have a 1200 VA model. Uses about 1/2 watt more at idle and is 91% max efficiency.

The circuit powered by my smaller inverter can be switched to the big inverter or the landline/generator. While you are in there making it happen you might as well give yourself options.

Re: Inverter Question

Reply #22 – July 28, 2019, 11:32:30 pm

Roger you have a specific efficiency chart for your units?. Do tell.

Re: Inverter Question

Reply #23 – July 28, 2019, 11:48:39 pm

Quote from: Caflashbob – July 28, 2019, 11:32:30 pm

Roger you have a specific efficiency chart for your units?. Do tell.

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-Phoenix-Inverter-180VA-1200VA-EN.pdf

Re: Inverter Question

Reply #24 – July 29, 2019, 12:29:20 am

Outback, xantrex, and Victron do not seem to publish efficiency charts specific to 12 volt units.

The one chart I can find is Magnums. Overlaid over their similar max efficiently charts at 24/48 volts sane as the Victrons.

In other words xantrex and outback publish no charts. Max efficiency only.

Outback quotes max only. And Victron only has charts published for their 24/48 volts units that show a similar efficiency curve as the magnum.

Magnum has the only published chart available.

And that chart shows a sharp drop off at higher levels.

So I am supposed to assume that Victron units are superior to the only other unit with published charts in the voltages we use.

Yet their 24/48 volt units are very similar.

All the big boys use 24 volt systems and 24 volt components in their conversions and/or use a Vanner step down transformer to end up with 12 volts. The Vanner consumes power also to reduce the power.

I need a seemingly non available chart to back up the idea that a 12 volt Victron of any size is much more efficient than any other.

At this point the verified max efficiency based on the charts is a 24 volt Victron 11 with a single toroidal transformer.

95% at low to mid outputs. You would need a step down.

The busses have run this setup forever..

Anything else but the magnum is unverified.

The idea that Victron says they have no charts is an eye opener.

I can post the emails so you can ask yourselves but I think the other brands are all similar in 12 volts.

90% with large heat sinks and dual variable speed cooling fans.

93 and 94% with a smaller transformer and a single cooling fan.

Max.

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