Hwh 6 pack, then a front 3 pack?

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Hwh 6 pack, then a front 3 pack?

August 10, 2019, 07:25:19 pm

Last year I ordered 2 kits to rebuild my 6 packs. Not really knowing at the time, my front only has a 3 pack. Will my rebuild kit still work for the front? Will I just have some spares left over?

Re: Hwh 6 pack, then a front 3 pack?

Reply #1 – August 10, 2019, 07:43:10 pm

That is a very strange setup on your front manifold. I have never heard of (or seen) a manifold with just 3 valves. I will have to do some research on how that works. The parts in the kit should work on the 3 solenoid valves, and yes, you will have some spare parts left over.

Would it be possible for you to post a photo or scanned copy of your air system diagram showing the front manifold and associated air lines?

Very interesting!

Re: Hwh 6 pack, then a front 3 pack?

Reply #2 – August 10, 2019, 09:16:40 pm

The stickers on the front manifold valves indicate they did not come from HWH, but rather from a outfit called Automatic Valve in Novi, MI.

I'm revising my opinion on the kit parts working. In the photo the design looks very similar to the HWH valves. However, until you get one apart, you won't know for sure if the parts in the rebuild kit will work.

Automatic Valve Fluid Power

Re: Hwh 6 pack, then a front 3 pack?

Reply #3 – August 10, 2019, 10:37:51 pm

Found a listing for two different 3-valve manifolds in the HWH Leveling Parts Catalog (Page 5 and Page 6):

Whw Lwvwling Parts Catalog | Valve | Electrical Connector.

They both use the standard RAP1940 Solenoid Valve, same as found on our "normal" 6-pack manifolds.

Diagrams below:

Re: Hwh 6 pack, then a front 3 pack?

Reply #4 – August 11, 2019, 08:59:42 am

Wow Chuck thanks! As soon as my eyes start working better Ill find my air diagram and post it.

Re: Hwh 6 pack, then a front 3 pack?

Reply #5 – August 11, 2019, 09:44:44 am

Thanks!

I'm scratching my head - trying to figure out how your leveling system could operate with only 3 valves in front. If your front manifold only has one of each valve (travel, lower and raise) then all 4 front air bags must operate tied together. Without independent control of each front corner, I don't see how the leveling system could work. That's why I am so curious to see your air system diagram.

Re: Hwh 6 pack, then a front 3 pack?

Reply #6 – August 11, 2019, 09:56:06 am

Probably works like the RVA jacks on a Monaco. One front two rear, rear does left, right front does up, down.

Re: Hwh 6 pack, then a front 3 pack?

Reply #7 – August 11, 2019, 10:04:00 am

Quote from: craneman – August 11, 2019, 09:56:06 am

Probably works like the RVA jacks on a Monaco. One front two rear, rear does left, right front does up, down.

Might work with jacks, but with air bag suspension, I don't see how you can adjust just one (rear) corner up or down without twisting the frame.

Re: Hwh 6 pack, then a front 3 pack?

Reply #8 – August 11, 2019, 10:53:22 am

Chuck, I'm just guessing here, but since we only have 3 ride height valves couldn't it work the same way?

Re: Hwh 6 pack, then a front 3 pack?

Reply #9 – August 11, 2019, 11:27:11 am

On a Foretravel coach, "ride height" and "leveling" are two distinct operations. Ride height only functions when the coach is moving. Leveling only functions when the coach is parked. Although they both utilize the same adjustment tools (air pressure, HWH manifold valves and air bags) they work towards different goals.

When moving, "ride height" seeks to keep the coach at a pre-determined constant distance from the road surface. The height control valves have a single position where they are "happy". They will add or subtract air from the suspension bags to maintain that position. They don't care if the coach is level or not. Driving the coach up or down a steep grade makes it very "un-level" (compared to a bubble level), but the ride height valves don't mind, as long as the coach frame is kept parallel to the road surface.

When parked, "leveling", wants to keep the coach "bubble" level regardless of the surface upon which it rests. To accomplish this with air bag suspension, it is necessary to control the height of all 4 corners independently. The corners are adjusted up and down as linked "pairs" (HWH calls this Bi-Axis leveling). To lower the rear of the coach, the RR bags and the LR bags are deflated, and the rear end goes down. To raise the right side of the coach, the RF bags and the RR bags are inflated, and the right side goes up.

Maintaining "ride height" with only 3 valves in the front HWH manifold would not be a problem, because as you mention, there is only one front ride height valve to keep "happy". BUT, without having individual control of the air bags at each front corner, I don't understand how MT Ted's HWH leveling system can operate.

Re: Hwh 6 pack, then a front 3 pack?

Reply #10 – August 11, 2019, 11:30:38 am

Hopefully his air diagram will shed some light.

Re: Hwh 6 pack, then a front 3 pack?

Reply #11 – August 11, 2019, 11:34:11 am

I await with bated breath. (I didn't brush my teeth this morning...)

Re: Hwh 6 pack, then a front 3 pack?

Reply #12 – August 11, 2019, 12:36:36 pm

Here is the diagram of the the air system in my coach. It really does no good I don't think in showing us how it works. The original hwh manual was gone when we got the coach. I printed a manual off the net. 600 series like Andy's.

Re: Hwh 6 pack, then a front 3 pack?

Reply #13 – August 11, 2019, 01:06:45 pm

Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie – August 11, 2019, 11:27:11 am

Maintaining "ride height" with only 3 valves in the front HWH manifold would not be a problem, because as you mention, there is only one front ride height valve to keep "happy". BUT, without having individual control of the air bags at each front corner, I don't understand how MT Ted's HWH leveling system can operate.

Many SOBs use a similar setup. only with 3 or 4 hydraulic jacks. The 2 rear corners control left/right and contribute to front/rear leveling. The front, be it a single center jack or 2 jacks on the same line, only contributes to F/R leveling and "floats" L/R. With either 3 or 4 jacks, it's a tripod. I suspect MT Teds coach operates in this manner, on air.

Re: Hwh 6 pack, then a front 3 pack?

Reply #14 – August 11, 2019, 02:29:25 pm

Quote from: MisterEd – August 11, 2019, 01:06:45 pm

Many SOBs use a similar setup. only with 3 or 4 hydraulic jacks. The 2 rear corners control left/right and contribute to front/rear leveling. The front, be it a single center jack or 2 jacks on the same line, only contributes to F/R leveling and "floats" L/R. With either 3 or 4 jacks, it's a tripod. I suspect MT Teds coach operates in this manner, on air.

As I tried to explain in my post (#9) above, in this case we are not dealing with a "tripod". With air bag suspension and air leveling, there is no front central lifting point that would allow the front of the coach to "float" left and right. Lifting (or dropping) either rear corner of the coach would twist the frame, since both front wheels are solidly planted on the ground. I guess I am not being clear - my fault.

Re: Hwh 6 pack, then a front 3 pack?

Reply #15 – August 11, 2019, 03:04:45 pm

Quote from: MT Ted – August 11, 2019, 12:36:36 pm

Here is the diagram of the the air system in my coach. It really does no good I don't think in showing us how it works. The original hwh manual was gone when we got the coach. I printed a manual off the net. 600 series like Andy's.

Well, you are correct - your air system diagram does nothing to clarify this mystery.

First of all, the drawing is marked B-2031 URED 6V92 AIR SCHEMATIC. The inclusive dates are 6/10/87 to 9/09/88. I think the URED (Unihome Rear Engine Diesel) designation was applied to the earliest completely in-house factory built Foretravel air suspended coaches. Since your coach is a 1992 model, I would have expected your owner's manual to include a more up to date air system drawing.

Second, your drawing does not show the HWH leveling system components AT ALL! There is no rear 6-pack, and no front 3-pack. The 8 air bag suspension is there, and the 3 ride height valves...and that's it. So where is the air leveling system schematic?

Have you actually seen the HWH 600 Series control panel in Andy's coach? Do you have the same panel in your coach? I can't imagine your coach would be built with all the HWH components, and not have them show up in the air system schematic.

I would really love to crawl under your coach and see what the heck your system looks like and how it works.

Question: Can you manually raise one side of the coach all the way up, and lower the other side all the way down? Like if you wanted to tilt the coach so you could dump every last drop of "stuff" out of your holding tanks. Just curious if you have ever tried this.

Re: Hwh 6 pack, then a front 3 pack?

Reply #16 – August 11, 2019, 07:01:39 pm

When we first got this thing the hwh didn't work. I'm guessing the PO had the hwh owners manual in his house. I bought this from his estate sale. I'm sure he was trying to get it working. His kids wouldn't let him drive it I guess. I pulled the controller from under the couch and sent it off. A $2.00 part fixed it and an hour of labor. These are the numbers on the receipt. Ap8238 box cntrl 600 ca .
Maybe I'll have to find an updated air system schematic! If you ever make it to Billings Montana look me up. You can certainly look her over.

Re: Hwh 6 pack, then a front 3 pack?

Reply #17 – August 11, 2019, 07:03:57 pm

Darnit not included in my last post. It will raise one side and dump the other. I didn't take it all the way though, she was starting to groan and creak pretty good.

Re: Hwh 6 pack, then a front 3 pack?

Reply #18 – August 11, 2019, 07:05:49 pm

Quote from: MT Ted – August 11, 2019, 07:03:57 pm

Darnit not included in my last post. It will raise one side and dump the other. I didn't take it all the way though, she was starting to groan and creak pretty good.

Re: Hwh 6 pack, then a front 3 pack?

Reply #19 – August 11, 2019, 07:44:51 pm

Quote from: MT Ted – August 11, 2019, 07:01:39 pm

Maybe I'll have to find an updated air system schematic!

I agree! I'm pretty sure your air diagram is not correct for your coach. You need one for a 1992 U300 with HWH. Perhaps you could get with Andy (Andy 2) and see if he could provide a .pdf copy of his air schematic. He has a '92 U300 6V92, and his build number (4135) isn't far from yours, so his air diagram should be correct for your coach.

Your HWH control panel is exactly the same as mine (Series 600) so your system should work just like mine. The only question I have is how your front manifold can function with just 3 valves. I still don't understand that...

You might try one more experiment when you get a chance. Get your air pressure up to normal compressor cutout (about 120psi) and shut off the engine. Drop the suspension down with the HWH panel "dump" button so the coach is resting on the stops all the way around. At that point, all your air bags should be deflated. Then using the "up" arrow, try to raise one side or the other - it doesn't matter which side. If you start to hear "groaning and creaking" stop there and turn the HWH panel off. Then go out and check the air bags at front and rear on the side you were trying to raise. I am curious if the bags at both ends of the coach are inflated, OR are just the rear bags on that side inflated.

The answer to this test will tell us if your HWH system can control the front corner heights independently.

Re: Hwh 6 pack, then a front 3 pack?

Reply #20 – August 12, 2019, 08:54:41 pm

Chuck I will try to do this tomorrow. Last night we got a horrible hail storm. I might as well just seen how far I could have twisted it and completely popped the windshields out of her. They are destroyed. They were no match for lemon sized hail stones. Along with my house, my pickup and my racecar trailer. It destroyed the skylight, outer and inner, the fridge vent, vent cover and both ac covers. The solar panels are fine. I have a serious mess on my hands. I do have glass protection on my coach. New windshields and a new seal coming soon. I will get back to 6 pack mode soon. Just gotta stop the leaks.

Re: Hwh 6 pack, then a front 3 pack?

Reply #21 – August 12, 2019, 10:52:49 pm

Man, I'm really sorry to hear about the hail damage to your coach and other stuff. I fear hail storms more than any other threat to our coach, cuz it sits outside without even a metal cover to protect it. I hope you can get the damage repaired without too much out of pocket expense. I'm glad to hear your solar panels survived, since I have 6 on top of our coach, and always assumed they would not stand up to bad hail. Must be stronger than I thought.

Good luck with your recovery!

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