600 AH Lithium Battery Installation

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600 AH Lithium Battery Installation

September 01, 2019, 01:48:39 pm

600 AH Lithium Battery Installation

This is a project we did to improve and enhance the function of our coach for the way we choose to use it. You might choose to do it a different way or not do it at all.

What we did:
600 amp hrs of Battle Born LiFePO4 GC2 were batteries installed in the space used by 2 8Ds.
Each battery has its own 36 watt heaters powered by the batteries themselves.
Each battery is wired to common bus bars.
Both plus and minus connections are switched.
The plus side is fused. The minus side has a shunt with temperature sensor for a Victron BMV 702 battery monitor
A battery temperature sensor is connected for the Victron 3000VA Multiplus inverter/charger.
A battery temperature sensor is connected for the Sterling 120 amp Battery to Battery Charger.
A custom made battery rack was fabricated.
A Sterling 120 amp Battery to Battery Charger was installed with a remote control/display panel.

The Battle Born batteries and start batteries are charged in several ways.

While driving the ignition controlled Sterling 120 amp Battery to Battery Charger provides up to 120 amps to the Battle Born batteries using a 4 stage lithium battery charge profile. The 240 amp Delco Remy 40si alternator charges the start batteries and provides power to the Sterling B2B charger. The Sterling B2B charger prioritizes the charge level at the start batteries.

1200 watts of roof top solar charges both the Battle Born batteries and the start batteries using a Victron SmartSolar MPPT Charge Controller and a Victron Argofet zero voltage drop isolator.

A Sterling ProCharge Ultra 40 amp 4 stage smart charger charges both the Battle Born batteries and the start batteries using a 4 stage lithium battery charge profile if it is on.

The Victron 3000VA Multiplus will charge the Battle Born batteries in a multi-stage lithium friendly change profile if the charger is on.

The Victron 3000VA Multiplus will charge the start batteries as well if it is on.

Cold Weather Operation.
I added two 18 watt thin film heating panels (about 3"x3"), one on each side of the batteries and covered them with a layer of thin foil backed insulation. The pair of heating panels provide up to 36 watts of heat to each battery. There is an on/off switch for the heating system and a high/low switch as well. For all six batteries the total of the contact heating panels is 216 watts.

The batteries themselves provide power to the heaters. In extreme conditions the heat generated by the panels as well as the internal heat in the batteries because they are providing about 3 amps each will warm the batteries enough so that they will begin to charge. Once they start to charge that process generates more internal heat until the batteries are fully functional even at low temperatures. It is really the internal battery temperature that drives this process not the ambient temperature.

Connections.
There is no longer a House and Start battery isolator. There are no combiners or any other inter-battery bank connections. The boost solenoid is still functional if that need arises.

The Sterling Battery to Battery Charger is located in the LP bay (no big LP tank any longer). Power to it comes via a fused 4/0 cable from the start battery power stud in the engine bay to a bus bar in the LP bay. The B2B charger in and out sides (120 amp max) are connected with short 2/0 cables. The output side is fused and connects to another bus bar. A 3/0 cable from that bus bar connects to a coach common positive stud behind the white panel in the main storage bay. When not powered the Sterling B2B charger effectively isolates the start and lithium batteries.

Power from the lithium battery connected bus bars in the LP bay power a smaller Victron 800VA inverter located about 4 ft away through a switch and fuse. This smaller inverter powers the residential refrigerator and all of the front end electronics through a distribution panel and circuit breaker.

The Delco Remy 240 amp 40si alternator connects to the start battery power stud in the engine bay with a 4/0 cable. A short cable connects to the start battery side of the boost solenoid and then another cable to the start batteries.

A house battery power stud in the engine bay connects to a coach common positive stud behind the white panel up front with a 4/0 cable. A short cable from the engine bay house battery power stud connects to the house battery side of the boost solenoid.

Solar power and the Sterling ProCharge Ultra charger are connect to the start battery power stud and the house battery power stud both in the engine bay. Solar power uses a small Victron Argofet zero voltage drop isolator to split power to the house and start sides. The Sterling UltraPro charger has independent outputs for the house and start sides.

Results
After removing our 8 year old Lifelines and the upper and lower battery racks (about 580 lbs) and the 4-DC400-6 Full River Batteries and the battery rack (about 550 lbs) and replacing them with 6 Battle Born GC2 batteries and a new rack and cables (about 180 lbs) our coach is lighter by about 950 lbs.

The Full River DC400-6 batteries found a new home in Ted and Karen's coach. My three aging but functional Lifelines as well as Ted's two aging but functional 8D batteries are now being charged by our home rooftop solar array and will provide 2-3 days of basic lighting, well pump operation and refrigerator power in the event of a power failure. In 19 years our longest power outage has been an hour.

Comparing notes with other Lithium battery users confirms my expectations that on most days solar will fulfill or exceed our daily needs and leave the batteries at or near full charge. We expect to be independent of power connections or generator use when we choose for extended periods of time. We expect to never have to replace a house battery during the time we think we will continue to own and use the coach.

Parts
Batteries
100Ah 12V GC2 LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Battery - Battle Born Batteries
Battery to Battery Charger
Sterling Battery-to-Battery Charger - 12V-12V 120 Amp] Sterling Battery-to-Battery Charger - 12V-12V 120 Amp
Victron Argofet Isolator
Victron Argofet Battery Isolator

Was it worth it?
Many will ask this question. This is definitely an upscale extra cost choice. Lithium battery prices are coming down. the Charge while driving and cold weather operation issues are easily dealt with. Most of us are never going to be anywhere where the high temperature limits are exceeded. It is worth considering if:

You plan on owning your coach for a longer period of time.

Independence from land lines and a generator are a priority.

Weight savings is a consideration.

You have or are going to add sufficient solar capacity.

You power demands are going up, maybe from a 12v or 120v refrigerator conversion or a residential refrigerator.

Or maybe you just want to do it.

We think it will prove to be worth the effort and expense for our purposes. Nothing else really matters.

Special Thanks
No project like this is done without some help and learning from others experience.
Alan Ferber at Bay Marine Supply for his endless support, encouragement and help with prices.
Peter Flemming whose encouragement and critical thinking help make some of these projects work.
Ted and Karen whose choice to move up to Full River Batteries forced me to make a choice helped make this a bit more affordable.
George Denninghoff whose trail blazing I followed and real world experience helped me see what was possible.
Thanks!

Pictures
See my media album Lithium Battery Installation

Re: 600 AH Lithium Battery Installation

Reply #1 – September 01, 2019, 03:42:04 pm

Have you been using it yet? How is everything working? I am having an issue with my bmv712 and SOC.. keeps dropping but never goes back up.. redid the connections on the batteries and made sure everything goes through the negative shunt.. volts are always good but SOC never goes up.. I installed the alternator bim for the lithium's but not sure if it actually works and so far not a fan.. will look into the sterling products.. want to charge from the alternator as we drive.. 1 thing I noticed is the solar is not kicking in as high as I think it should.. when AC pulls 2000w off the inverter , split kicks in about 500w.. not sure if that's normal or not.. when I installed and programmed the solar controllers originally I had seen over 900w off the 1200w on top..

Sry to hijack a little but . Like always you did a great job!!

Re: 600 AH Lithium Battery Installation

Reply #2 – September 01, 2019, 04:19:45 pm

Quote from: DavidS – September 01, 2019, 03:42:04 pm

Have you been using it yet? How is everything working? I am having an issue with my bmv712 and SOC.. keeps dropping but never goes back up.. redid the connections on the batteries and made sure everything goes through the negative shunt.. volts are always good but SOC never goes up.. I installed the alternator bim for the lithium's but not sure if it actually works and so far not a fan.. will look into the sterling products.. want to charge from the alternator as we drive.. 1 thing I noticed is the solar is not kicking in as high as I think it should.. when AC pulls 2000w off the inverter , split kicks in about 500w.. not sure if that's normal or not.. when I installed and programmed the solar controllers originally I had seen over 900w off the 1200w on top..

Sry to hijack a little but . Like always you did a great job!!

Not sure it applies in your case. But I had the same problem, SOC would not go to 100% Checked with Alan and he said to check where I had my solar connected. Turns out I connected it directly to batteries so shunt was reading loads out, and inverter charging in, but not solar in. Moved solar to the shunt and now goes to 100%

Re: 600 AH Lithium Battery Installation

Reply #3 – September 01, 2019, 04:26:34 pm

Is all 600 AH useable? And, if you pull 600 AH out of battery bank, where does that leave the (total bank) SOC?

Re: 600 AH Lithium Battery Installation

Reply #4 – September 01, 2019, 04:38:47 pm

Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie – September 01, 2019, 04:26:34 pm

Is all 600 AH useable? And, if you pull 600 AH out of battery bank, where does that leave the (total bank) SOC?

Battle born says their batteries are usable to 100%.. SOC Would be at zero.. think you might be asking about volts?

Tests I've seen on battle born is they they have say 130ah for a 100ah battery so the percentage is worked in the total of ah.. I believe..

Re: 600 AH Lithium Battery Installation

Reply #5 – September 01, 2019, 04:41:41 pm

Nice job! Well thought out and nicely executed.
Don

Re: 600 AH Lithium Battery Installation

Reply #6 – September 01, 2019, 04:52:07 pm

Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie – September 01, 2019, 04:26:34 pm

Is all 600 AH useable? And, if you pull 600 AH out of battery bank, where does that leave the (total bank) SOC?

When I had 400 ah, ran them down till BMS shut off battery at 1% SOC. About 11.9 volts. Then charged them up will solar and inverter. Took less than 3 hours to get back up to 100% SOC

Re: 600 AH Lithium Battery Installation

Reply #7 – September 01, 2019, 05:05:00 pm

All of the charge and all of the loads have to connect to the load side of the shunt in order for all of the in and out to get counted correctly. We did a bit of rearranging on Ted and Karen's solar install to make that part correct.

Battle Born says you can use 100% of the SOC (I set mine based on 600 ahs) but my planning uses only 75% consumed Like all batteries a little less stress and the cycle count goes way up. This compared to the 1500 ahs I had and trying to stay less than 25% consumption for longer battery life with those gives me about 20% more useful capacity while still maximizing cycle count. And I still have 150 ahs in reserve. And almost 1000 lbs less weight.

For purposes of my BMV 702 the total capacity is set at 600 as are all of my capacity calulations.

I have tried every function out. The coach sat in the barn for 2 week, no sun, no charger. Lithiums went down to 13.6 from 13.7. Start batteries were still at 12.7. Started right up. Ran out to see how much amps was going where. Plenty into the starts for a short period, about 6 amps into the Lithiums via the B2B charger, exactly what I expected. Pulled it out of the barn, shut it down and it was at 100% in about 20 min. Tried the boost solenoid, that works. Tried the big switches to isolate components, they work. Multiplus works as expected but it is normally off. My Sterling charger gets to 13.6v and 3 amps into all batteries quickly and then shuts itself off. It wakes up after some time to see where things are and charges as needed or goes back to sleep. Refrigerator and small inverter are working as expected.

Heading for South Dakota next week for 10 days. So far works as designed.

Re: 600 AH Lithium Battery Installation

Reply #8 – September 01, 2019, 05:33:31 pm

Can't wait to hear results from your trip..

Re: 600 AH Lithium Battery Installation

Reply #9 – September 01, 2019, 05:54:10 pm

As always, great preparation and execution Roger! Since you have almost the same coach as us, where did you run your solar wires down and how far before you reached the controller? I know you want to keep the distance close, but with the slide, that was my dilemma. Second question, I have the same set up in my battery compartment and was wondering if one could cut out that bracing above or is that a no no? Most likely is, but thought I would ask!

Re: 600 AH Lithium Battery Installation

Reply #10 – September 01, 2019, 06:05:12 pm

Quote from: juicesqueezer – September 01, 2019, 05:54:10 pm

was wondering if one could cut out that bracing above or is that a no no?

Joe,

You could but you need to remember that is a strengthener to offset the hole in the side that was removed for the slide. So I would go with the No No.

Mike

Re: 600 AH Lithium Battery Installation

Reply #11 – September 01, 2019, 06:25:50 pm

Quote from: Pamela & Mike – September 01, 2019, 06:05:12 pm

Joe,

You could but you need to remember that is a strengthener to offset the hole in the side that was removed for the slide. So I would go with the No No.

Mike

Thanks Mike, kind of thought that, but sure would have been nice to have it removed!

Re: 600 AH Lithium Battery Installation

Reply #12 – September 01, 2019, 08:34:49 pm

Joe, my solar cables come down from the roof through the refrigerator vent and through the floor to the manifold bay. They connect to a fuse block, each panel is individually fused. Then to a switch, the Victron controller, another fuse on the + side and then back to the engine side of the inside of the bed box.

All of my panels are wired in parallel, #8 or #10 wire depending on where they are mounted, directly to the fuse block.

3 panels when these pictures were taken, some shadow lines from panel cabels,

See
A Second House Battery Bank, Solar Panels, 2 New Inverters

Re: 600 AH Lithium Battery Installation

Reply #13 – September 01, 2019, 10:16:06 pm

Well done.

Re: 600 AH Lithium Battery Installation

Reply #14 – September 02, 2019, 08:22:15 am

Thanks Roger! I have the room behind the new fridge, but was trying to wrap my head around how to get these wires up to where the batteries and inverter where to keep the cables short. I have read to keep the cables there as short as possible for less drop from the solar panels. So thinking was getting the solar cables into the bay with the batteries, controller and inverter.
I plan on installing 6 200 watt panels on top of coach when we get back to our son's home and run the wires down. From there I was clueless! Duh!

Re: 600 AH Lithium Battery Installation

Reply #15 – September 02, 2019, 09:16:21 am

From the manifold side of the wet bay I went up through the floor into a closet in the bathroom, through the bottom of the closets and under the drawers to a chase that goes under the floor for about 18" end comes up in the pass side end of the space at the end of the bed. Then through the wall to connections on the other side. Size your wires based on the round trip length, the amps and acceptable voltage loss (<3% is OK, 1% is a better target).

Bos'ns' Corner - Wire Size Calculator

It is about 10 ft one way, use 20 ft for length, my max current is 70 amps, charges at 13.4 volts. I used 4 ga wire. At 85 amps you would want to use 2 ga wire. You will rarely be at max output but that is how you need to size the wires.

Re: 600 AH Lithium Battery Installation

Reply #16 – September 02, 2019, 11:05:15 am

Nice Roger. You won't be disappointed with the lithiums.

Re: 600 AH Lithium Battery Installation

Reply #17 – September 02, 2019, 11:31:38 am

Thanks for the positive feedback Roger. Really enjoyed seeing your finished product on our visit. Your coach, shop, home reflect the aspirations of a true craftsman.

Re: 600 AH Lithium Battery Installation

Reply #18 – September 02, 2019, 12:32:12 pm

Quote from: juicesqueezer – September 02, 2019, 08:22:15 am

Thanks Roger! I have the room behind the new fridge, but was trying to wrap my head around how to get these wires up to where the batteries and inverter where to keep the cables short. I have read to keep the cables there as short as possible for less drop from the solar panels. So thinking was getting the solar cables into the bay with the batteries, controller and inverter.
I plan on installing 6 200 watt panels on top of coach when we get back to our son's home and run the wires down. From there I was clueless! Duh!

You will need to research how to wire your solar panels, parallel, serial, and/or combination. Serial ups, combines, the voltage, thus requiring a smaller gauge wire. Then comes selection of solar charger or combination of. To wire my 4 panel, 1200 watt system I used a combination of both. Two in series at each end of rv to combiner box on roof and the two in parallel to the 100 amp, 1400 watt at 12v, 12v solar charger.

Roger, your system is awesum. For me the best part is it matches your needs. I am not sure what mine is now with my increased solar capability and if I'll be plugged in or not. You were the one that taught me that lesson of measuring for my needs. Congrats on completing your system with well thought out components that match your needs and comfort level. Thank you so much for your post. You have given me more to measure and research now.

I have started with the following similar to a Kill O Watt meter, called a Currant that will measure, and store daily kwh usage..
Currant Bluetooth Smart Outlet with Energy Monitoring - - Amazon.com

As an Amazon Associate Foretravel Owners' Forum earns from qualifying purchases.

Re: 600 AH Lithium Battery Installation

Reply #19 – September 02, 2019, 12:45:54 pm

Series or parallel or a mix is always a discussion point. Wire them in series and shade on one panel makes all in that series string produce nothing. Wired in parallel each panel is independent and shade on one has no impact on the others. The cost savings from one or two gauge smaller wire is offset by combiner boxes and fittings on the roof (where you have to go to service it). The cost of one or two gauge bigger wire is insignificant compared to the total project cost. Wiring them in parallel gets your fusing, combining, service and installation all at ground level. It was an easy choice for me. Do your homework and planning carefully.

Re: 600 AH Lithium Battery Installation

Reply #20 – September 02, 2019, 12:52:11 pm

Thanks Jack, we are going on 9 years owning our coach now and are active users, 5-6 months a year. It takes time to figure out how you want to be able to use your coach, what works for you and what your coach lifestyle looks like. Everyone has a different and evolving one. Move deliberately ahead based on what works for you. That seems to work for us.

Re: 600 AH Lithium Battery Installation

Reply #21 – September 02, 2019, 02:00:53 pm

I copied Rogers installation and went all parallel. When I hit 1237 watts on my 1450 watts of solar last year one day I couldn't figure out why it didn't go higher. After talking to Allen at Bay Marine when I bought my Phoenix 1200, he informed me I had hit the limit on my 85/150 solar charger and it was shedding watts. Because I am adding one more panel this winter he suggests I take one on my current panels out of the 85/150 and put it with the new panel on a seperate solar charger if I want to utilize all the watts should circumstances allow it.

Re: 600 AH Lithium Battery Installation

Reply #22 – September 07, 2019, 08:58:18 am

I was asked what the Sterling Battery to Battery Charger does when loads are applied. So yesterday when we stopped at a rest area with the engine running at idle the B2B output side was charging the Lithium battery pack at ~7 amps. I turned on the Victron Multiplus and Susan turned on the microwave oven. I checked again and the output from the B2B charger was 70 amps. An amp or so for the Multiplus leaves 62 amps for the MW. The Lithium batteries were at 13.5 volts so that is about 840 watts. About right for the MW.

Re: 600 AH Lithium Battery Installation

Reply #23 – September 07, 2019, 09:10:30 am

I'm at the limit on my 75/15 Victron smart solar with 400 watts of panels. I'm probably loosing a couple amps at full sun. I'm thinking of adding 2-4 more panels this winter and if I do I'll probably upgrade my solar charger.

Re: 600 AH Lithium Battery Installation

Reply #24 – September 13, 2019, 10:07:46 am

Roger, can you post up a pic or add to the description of the Sterling display.. Any reason for the one you chose? I did not see it anywhere in the pics but you had mentioned you had one.. Just wondering..Thanks

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