Lithium battery questions

Topic: Lithium battery questions (Read 1204 times) previous topic - next topic

Lithium battery questions

April 29, 2020, 05:12:23 pm

I have read lots of past conversations regarding this topic, and have spoken with Roger, at length ( big thank you ), but am still a little fuzzy on some questions. IF......and it's a BIG if...... I were to upgrade from my three Lifelines bought in 2013, and I have the following:
Magnum Inverter/chargerMS PureSine model MS 2812 continuous power output 2800VA
Magnum Energy remote monitor ME-BMK
(3) solar panels 120 w each
Controller Xantrex C40
BEP Digital Voltage Sensitive Relay
Leech-Neville 2500J to 2800J Series Alternator

Can the Magnum system work with lithium?

What will I have to get or upgrade to work with, say, three Battle Born batteries??
Consider that at some point I would like to upgrade the solar to around 1000 w.....

Or I just might go to O'Reilly's and get (3 ) D's

Re: Lithium battery questions

Reply #1 – April 29, 2020, 05:18:57 pm

Just to muddy the waters a bit, I know someone who has ordered 6 of these 100amp Lithium batteries for $379 each: LiFePO4 Battery – FourVolt

Re: Lithium battery questions

Reply #2 – April 29, 2020, 05:46:32 pm

Quote from: GleamB – April 29, 2020, 05:12:23 pm

Can the Magnum system work with lithium?

Check out this video (Click "YOUTUBE" in bottom right corner of video and read the comments below the video):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5MADBMKN7Q

Re: Lithium battery questions

Reply #3 – April 29, 2020, 05:48:01 pm

Quote from: folivier – April 29, 2020, 05:18:57 pm

Just to muddy the waters a bit, I know someone who has ordered 6 of these 100amp Lithium batteries for $379 each: LiFePO4 Battery – FourVolt

There is risk, I am not willing to take. This is a pre order, not an order price. The only info on the internet is negative about this supplier.

This is from their site: "Pre-ordering means supporting a product, and want to help make happen. Getting in on an early-stage, you accept the risk that the business may experience changes, delays, and unforeseen challenges, or that the product in worst case scenario, might not come to fruition. The dates of the projected timeline to deliver is an estimate, and there is no guarantee that our products are fulfilled and delivered by these dates."

And the risk continues: "SECTION 4 - MODIFICATIONS TO THE SERVICE AND PRICES

Prices for our products are subject to change without notice.

We reserve the right at any time to modify or discontinue the Service (or any part or content thereof) without notice at any time.

We shall not be liable to you or to any third-party for any modification, price change, suspension or discontinuance of the Service."

The old adage "If it is too good to be true it....", I believe is worth thinking about.

Re: Lithium battery questions

Reply #4 – April 29, 2020, 05:56:34 pm

Quote from: GleamB – April 29, 2020, 05:12:23 pm

What will I have to get or upgrade to work with, say, three Battle Born batteries??

I would call Battle Born, given what you have said.

Re: Lithium battery questions

Reply #5 – April 29, 2020, 06:17:04 pm

The company with the super low cost lithium batteries.
They fail the most basic google review search.

Sure lithium could be built for much less. Instance 1/2 of high market share 12v 100amp lithium.

Do your research.

FOUR VOLT BATTERY DEAL 9 | DIY Solar Power Forum

Re: Lithium battery questions

Reply #6 – April 29, 2020, 07:52:58 pm

Yes Magnum is compatible with lithium. When I bought my coach it came with Magnum inverter and solar controller and 4
270 watt panels in boxes and he was planning on lithium. So far all I have done is put in the MS 2812 inverter. The rest will
get done when I have time to deal with it. I wouldn't bother with solar but I have it.

Re: Lithium battery questions

Reply #7 – April 29, 2020, 08:37:09 pm

Switching to Lithium batteries makes sense if it is time to replace your current batteries and you are going to keep your coach for a while. As with any batteries how you use them and take care of them will determine their life expectancy. Treated well Lithiums can last up to 5,000 cycles or 13+ years. 400 amphrs of Lithium batteries are about the same as 3 8Ds discharged to 50% SOC. Tough on AGM batteries. About the same as 6 8Ds discharged to 75% SOC which gets you the max AGM life, about 2500 cycles.

Cold weather use, charge while driving easy issues to solve.

And you will save 500 lbs or more.

Probably not for everyone, depends a lot on how you use your coach, how much power you need and use, and your expectations.

We are glad we did it, ourselves. Ask questions if you want.
600 AH Lithium Battery Installation

Re: Lithium battery questions

Reply #8 – April 29, 2020, 08:40:50 pm

Thanks for the tips on Fourvolt. I passed that info on to my buddy. Glad I have Battleborns!
Roger I'll disagree with you and say that 3 Battleborns are noticeably more than 3 8D's.

Re: Lithium battery questions

Reply #9 – April 29, 2020, 08:53:41 pm

AGM is good enough for me

Re: Lithium battery questions

Reply #10 – April 29, 2020, 08:57:03 pm

Well, 3 8D have about 750 amp hrs, 375 amp hrs at 50% SOC. 400 amp hrs of BattleBorn LiFePO4 batteries have up to 400 amp hrs of useable power, Yes, more the 3 8Ds. And almost 500 lbs less weight when you get rid of the HD mounting racks.

To get 400 amp hrs out of 8Ds at a 75% SOC discharge you would need at least 6 8Ds.

3 Battleborns are 300 amp hrs. They will be noticeably better than 3 8Ds that have some years on them and some less than best treatment.

The numbers are one thing. Folivier and I (and many others) are pretty amazed at LiFePO4 battery performance compared to conventional batteries especially when tied to a sufficient solar system.

If you are sticking with AGM consider Full River L16 6 volt batteries. 4 of these have about 830 amp hr capacity, weight less than 3 8Ds and their extra racks and take up less floor space than 2 8Ds.

Re: Lithium battery questions

Reply #11 – April 29, 2020, 08:59:13 pm

Agm's require almost a perfect charging regimen. If damaged hard to fix. A set of desulfurization devices would be on any AGM I had. The factory put mk gels to lessen the odds of not charging them correctly or in time on every unicoach built new

Re: Lithium battery questions

Reply #12 – April 29, 2020, 10:02:37 pm

Quote from: Caflashbob – April 29, 2020, 08:59:13 pm

Agm's require almost a perfect charging regimen. If damaged hard to fix. A set of desulfurization devices would be on any AGM I had. The factory put mk gels to lessen the odds of not charging them correctly or in time on every unicoach built new

Pretty good reason to consider Lithiums. Much more energy per pound, much easier to charge, much wider operating window, at least twice the life expectancy, better warranty, maybe better resale desirability,

Re: Lithium battery questions

Reply #13 – April 29, 2020, 11:54:51 pm

Roger as you said there are temp restrictions on lithium's. I looked closely at Northstar among others before I went back to our coaches OEM mk gel batteries 6 year ago. My rational as a prepper in shaky town was to not replace the still operating absorption refer with a backup freezer section compressor if needed and a working refer/freezer in the bay.

IF the prepper part of our calculations was not there and IF the refer was the later models with the thinner zinc coatings known to fail the decision might have been different.

At the time the 2 Northstar li ion were $12k. Plus the rest of the system. We have spent $23k at the Cummins dealer over the last 8 years in upgrades and repairs plus probably a large percentage of that amount in electronic and electrical stuff and tires.

Well worth it. Enjoyed every mile and day. Plus god help is if we really need it.

We used to jet ski at 120F at the river and used to ski at well below zero. Coach was equipped new to be able to do both extremes.

We were not willing to change the true four season ability of the as built by CM and Ray Fore yet.

No question the li-ion are better in most if not all uses. Same as the residential refers.

Remember for us here in locked in shaky town where if things happen you may have to really exist as well as possible.

Everything ties together for us. House. Rv. Truck. Cars. Power supplies. Food. Solar at home. Water sources.

Most laugh or look away when I mention shaky town issues.

That's for them. We may be stupid but we are not crazy. And have the knowledge and interest to do what we can to prepare.

So we have our fully stocked coach within walking distance of our home which is unheard of in south Orange County, ca. But we did it. Bought our house 20 years ago with the idea that it had coach storage as we said "someday we will own a Foretravel" well someday occurred.

Different set of facts from most of you I assume. Plus most of you rarely remote camped in extreme weather. Or knew CM or the family and sold hundreds of Foretravels personally.

Thanks for reading this. Every decision is made up of many parts. At another day the parts might be different than 8 years ago.

Ps. DW has a medium term medical issue with a non good ending so we may run off into the sunset for a while and get to live our dream from 35 years ago for a while. We are ready to go as wanted.

Life is good. Enjoy every day. Almost None of my 35 year ago Foretravel friends are still around. Just a few. Hope to see them again. Down the road......

Re: Lithium battery questions

Reply #14 – April 30, 2020, 09:01:56 am

Quote from: GleamB – April 29, 2020, 05:12:23 pm

Can the Magnum system work with lithium?

I also have the Magnum 2812 with the BMK and 4 Battleborn batteries. Yes, the magnum will work. It will work better if you have the latest version of their ME-ARC50 remote. Earlier versions, like mine, default to float mode when shore or generator power is applied due to the higher nominal voltage of LiFePo4. I have to manually force it to bulk mode, otherwise it will fully charge in float mode but will take a little longer. Later versions correct that, and it is apparently not flash upgrade able. You will also not use the temp sensor function on your BMK, but it will work to give you SOC-based charging.

Re: Lithium battery questions

Reply #15 – April 30, 2020, 11:31:07 pm

Quote from: folivier – April 29, 2020, 08:40:50 pm

Thanks for the tips on Fourvolt. I passed that info on to my buddy. Glad I have Battleborns!
Roger I'll disagree with you and say that 3 Battleborns are noticeably more than 3 8D's.

How do the (3) Battleborns perform when assisting the "start batteries" via the boost switch?

I am going to be replacing my house batteries soon. Currently MK Gel 8G8D.

Thanks.

Re: Lithium battery questions

Reply #16 – April 30, 2020, 11:38:33 pm

Since the Battleborn full charge voltage is around 14v, the starter spins a lot faster and motor starts quicker. I rarely used boost until I got the lithiums...now it's routine and only occasionally start without boost to make sure the start batteries are still functioning. Can't help but be better for the starter. Woody.

Quote from: FtRoadTrip – April 30, 2020, 11:31:07 pm

How do the (3) Battleborns perform when assisting the "start batteries" via the boost switch?

I am going to be replacing my house batteries soon. Currently MK Gel 8G8D.

Thanks.

Re: Lithium battery questions

Reply #17 – April 30, 2020, 11:43:55 pm

That is what I wanted to hear.

Thank you.

Re: Lithium battery questions

Reply #18 – May 01, 2020, 01:11:12 am

Quote from: folivier – April 29, 2020, 08:40:50 pm

Roger I'll disagree with you and say that 3 Battleborns are noticeably more than 3 8D's.

Just so as to not leave mis information stand: Hmmm........3 Battle Born @ 100 ah each, depleted to 100% discharged = 300ah to use. My 3 AGM8D @ 250 ah each, depleted to 50% = 375 ah to use. So yes, Roger is correct, as per usual, and it takes 4 Battle Borns to be 25 ah greater than the 3 AGM8Ds at 50%.
https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b/fleet---heavy-duty-5000/marine---boat-30733/deep-cycle---marine-batteries-17354/409e0a64fe51/super-start-fleet-heavy-duty-group-size-8d-battery/agm8d/4742645

As a side note, I purchased 600 ah worth of lithium (lifepo4) batteries last year. Murphey's law, two weeks prior to lithiums arriving, I thought my house batteries failed, actually, they were fine. I had reset set low voltage off to 11.8 on inverter, causing use of microwave to throw a fault code, low voltage, shutting off inverter. Wanting to avoid having to replace batteries on the road. I did it right away. Re setting low cutoff on inverter to default of 10.5 volts fixed the problem of microwave causing fault code.

The lithiums are charged to 50% and sit in their original boxes, uninstalled. I will not install them until I see a need. So far, the 8Ds are doing just fine for my requirements, everyone's needs are different. I'll decide in 2021.

Re: Lithium battery questions

Reply #19 – May 01, 2020, 05:18:01 am

Dale,we have 2 Lithium pro batteries and a ms2812 with the BMK and are using the temp sensor, can you explain more why we
should not use it?

Re: Lithium battery questions

Reply #20 – May 01, 2020, 08:10:47 am

Quote from: John44 – May 01, 2020, 05:18:01 am

.....we have 2 Lithium pro batteries and a ms2812 with the BMK and are using the temp sensor, can you explain more why weshould not use it?

From Lithium Pros manufacturer's website, it states that if you click on "Additional Information" and you look at specifications, charge voltage is to be 14.6 volts, and charge amps, 50.

If you enable temperature compensation this will lower or raise voltage from the recommended
charge voltage of 14.6 volts recommended by your manufacturer, Lithium Pros. This is why not to enable temperature compensation. This matches all other well known lifepo4 battery manufacturers saying to charge with charger voltage set between 14.4 -14.6. The following BMS will cut off charging when battery reaches 14.6 volts, 100% charge.

From your battery mfgs Lithium Pros website, you have: INTEGRATED BMS WITH LOW VOLTAGE, HIGH VOLTAGE, OVERCURRENT, AND SHORT CIRCUIT PROTECTION". Thus your Lithium Pros batteries have an internal BMS that will turn off charging when battery voltage reaches 14.6 volts, and will turn off charging with too high or too low of a battery temperature.

RE3110 12.8V 110Ah Lithium Ion Battery - Lithium Pros

Re: Lithium battery questions

Reply #21 – May 01, 2020, 12:12:21 pm

Quote from: Pyolet – April 30, 2020, 11:38:33 pm

Since the Battleborn full charge voltage is around 14v, the starter spins a lot faster and motor starts quicker. I rarely used boost until I got the lithiums...now it's routine and only occasionally start without boost to make sure the start batteries are still functioning. Can't help but be better for the starter. Woody.

Battleborn says that their batteries should NOT be used as starting batteries. I think starting the generator and occasional use for boosting, if needed, is ok but I'd confirm that regular use for starting your coach engine is ok with them.

Re: Lithium battery questions

Reply #22 – May 01, 2020, 12:17:18 pm

Quote from: Jack L – May 01, 2020, 01:11:12 am

Just so as to not leave mis information stand: Hmmm........3 Battle Born @ 100 ah each, depleted to 100% discharged = 300ah to use. My 3 AGM8D @ 250 ah each, depleted to 50% = 375 ah to use. So yes, Roger is correct, as per usual, and it takes 4 Battle Borns to be 25 ah greater than the 3 AGM8Ds at 50%.
https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b/fleet---heavy-duty-5000/marine---boat-30733/deep-cycle---marine-batteries-17354/409e0a64fe51/super-start-fleet-heavy-duty-group-size-8d-battery/agm8d/4742645

As a side note, I purchased 600 ah worth of lithium (lifepo4) batteries last year. Murphey's law, two weeks prior to lithiums arriving, my house batteries failed. The lithiums are charged to 50% and sit in their original boxes, uninstalled. I will not install them until I see a need. So far, the 8Ds are doing just fine for my requirements, everyone's needs are different. I'll decide in 2021.

I think the big variable in this equation is how low you are willing to cycle your AGM's. Yes, at 50% there's a small advantage to 4 lithiums. I would typically try to stay above 75% SOC, which completely changes the math. Lithium gets more attractive as your minimum wet cell battery SOC increases, with 50% being the absolute lower limit.

Re: Lithium battery questions

Reply #23 – May 01, 2020, 12:19:43 pm

Quote from: John44 – May 01, 2020, 05:18:01 am

Dale,we have 2 Lithium pro batteries and a ms2812 with the BMK and are using the temp sensor, can you explain more why we
should not use it?

As I understand it, LiFePo4 does not require temperature compensated charging. They are better off without it, assuming you stay within the high/low temperature limits.

Re: Lithium battery questions

Reply #24 – May 01, 2020, 12:45:15 pm

Li-ion batteries do not necessarily produce all their rates power at the first moment of a draw.

In using them on my motorcycles I find in cooler weather where the motors oil is stiffer that I need to turn on the headlight for a minute or so to "warm up" the battery.

Different chemistry.

Affiliate Notice