Solar Upgrade

Topic: Solar Upgrade (Read 1557 times) previous topic - next topic

Solar Upgrade

May 07, 2020, 02:08:32 pm

The P.O. installed (3) 120 w Kyocera KC120-1 panels with a Xantrex C40 controller
We want to add or upgrade solar to around 1000 w
I am reading up, watching videos and, of course, I can ask Roger
The question is, with the current layout, would it be best to relocate existing panels and deal with patching a bunch of holes or try and just add more?
I need foot access
Would I need a different controller for added panels?
How are two different controllers tied into batteries?
Got a LOT to learn
Thanks

Re: Solar Upgrade

Reply #1 – May 07, 2020, 02:19:15 pm

If you can figure out how to add the additional panels without disturbing the existing ones I would do that but only you can figure that out by knowing the size of the panels you want to add. Probably not is my guess. A new controller will probably be necessary but that depends on what you have. I'm sure you will get lots of help here. Good luck!

Re: Solar Upgrade

Reply #2 – May 07, 2020, 02:23:43 pm

If your goal is 1000watts my suggestion would be to start from scratch.
Your current panels are not worth the space they are taking up.

Re: Solar Upgrade

Reply #3 – May 07, 2020, 02:42:14 pm

Quote from: GleamB – May 07, 2020, 02:08:32 pm

The P.O. installed (3) 120 w Kyocera KC120-1 panels with a Xantrex C40 controller
We want to add or upgrade solar to around 1000 w
I am reading up, watching videos and, of course, I can ask Roger
The question is, with the current layout, would it be best to relocate existing panels and deal with patching a bunch of holes or try and just add more?
I need foot access
Would I need a different controller for added panels?
How are two different controllers tied into batteries?
Got a LOT to learn
Thanks

I'm sure Roger will chime in, but one Victron controller will handle 1000 watts. You are wasting real estate with those 120 watt panels. Three 330 watt or higher will get you what you want.

Re: Solar Upgrade

Reply #4 – May 07, 2020, 03:12:30 pm

Yes, for sure start over. These are still good panels, they just are not right for your goal of walking room.

At the end of my post here I've posted pictures of how I arranged my approx 1800 watt system.

Your question is excellent, now start your research, much just on this forum from previous posts. Put solar in the search box on this forum and this will be a good place to start. I would read every solar post. I would watch all the AmSolar videos, buy your new solar controller from AmSolar or Bay Marine. Do not buy anything until you have a plan, and run it bye who ever you buy your controller from.

Your panels are a desirable size to sell used. An example of used out there, I bought two 305 watt SunPower panels for $110 each delivered to my rv, so you can see no need to keep your probably 18 year old panels. Your used solar controller and panels make a great package to sell to someone looking for a deal or smaller, low voltage panels like yours.

4, used, 305 watt panels would give you 1220 watts for approx $400-500 total for the panels. I paid approximately that just for shipping my 4 new panels. This $400-$500 total compares to the $335 each plus $222 shipping, for the pair, I paid for my two, 60 cell, mono, LG 335 watt panels and $260 each plus $222 shipping, for the pair, I paid for the two LG 280 watt panels. Planning your system will be key to meeting your goals, and not wasting unnecessary dollars. If you go for new, you will spend more, and have a slightly smaller footprint.

You will have choices ahead, enjoy the path, the result will be awesum.

Below are two pictures showing how I placed the 4 new LG panels, for approx 1200 watts.
As you can see, I have plenty of walking room, from getting off the ladder, onto the roof, exiting the roof, or walking all the way up to the front two panels. This was made posible by the use of four smaller LG panels, 66 X 40 inches.

Pictures of solar from roof front, and from ladder.
Shared album - John Lewis - Google Photos

These are the LG panels I added fall of 2019:
I bought my (2) LG 280, and (2) LG 335 60 cell, mono panels from:

300+ Watt Large Solar Panels |
Grid-Tie Solar Panels | EcoDirect.com

Mono | Wholesale Solar

A side note to how fast technology changes, the following 60 cell LG panels are all the same size, the 285 w I bought 3 yrs ago, the 335 w I bought fall of 2019, the 350 w to 375 w panels available today. All are approx 66 X 40 inches.

Since the photos above I've since added two 305 watt watt used panels, purchased for $110 each delivered, bringing total solar to approx 1800 watts. One 305 watt panel is between the a/c units, and one is next to the tv antenna at the front, so no problem for me walking on the roof. I used two Victron Smart Solar Controllers, one 100/50 for the used 610 watt combination and one 150/85 TR for the approx 1200 watts with the 4 new LG panels.

Re: Solar Upgrade

Reply #5 – May 07, 2020, 03:29:18 pm

I agree that to achieve your goal of walking space, you are better starting over with higher watt panels. You might be able to engineer a rack style mount for your new panels using the existing brackets as part of the base. It might be necessary to add additional support for the rack, but you could use a base attached by 3M VHB tape. You will have to buy a new controller either way, and this gives you the opportunity to upgrade with Bluetooth control and reporting. You will also find a market for your old equipment to help offset some of the cost.

Re: Solar Upgrade

Reply #6 – May 07, 2020, 04:42:17 pm

I like the commercial panels with the aluminum frame all the way around. They are about 1.5 inches thick with the actual glass at the top. I installed ours with about 1.75 inch space to the roof so I could use electrical flex conduit to run the wires inside so no wires were visible and they could not be damaged. This makes for a very clean installation. Normal commercial panels are 39 inches wide and 77 inches high and weight about 60 lbs. Residential panels are the same width but 65 inches high. They have evolved so the minimum wattage is about 305 up to 340 watts. Best to make a cardboard template and then try it on the roof. Some residential panels do not have the aluminum frame and are lighter but if you dry camp like we do, the tree branches are more likely to damage them. Figure about $.33/watt. I used stainless fasteners everywhere.

I fastened the mounts to the roof with screws. A regular stud finder worked great for most of the locations. The 77 inch panels should have three mounts down the side. The roof has a couple hundred screws in it already so it was simple to drill, use silicone sealer and screw them down. So, 3 panels would give you somewhere around 1000 watts and assuming they are 36 volts, you could wire all in series and have only two wires going down to the controller. Nothing wrong with all parallel but more wires and a little more loss. 4 panels would give about 1300 watts and could be wired series/parallel or all parallel. Check local CL or FB Marketplace for good deals. No need to buy used. New are cheap.

With 1000 to 1300 watts, there is no need to tilt the panels as they will put our more than enough watts unless you have a residential fridge or a plasma TV.

Several good contollers on the market. Best Solar Charge Controllers in 2020 [Reviews, Pricing & Specs] | Wholesale... Ours has been flawless through the years. A 96/100 amp contoller is fine for 1300 watts as they won't produce the rated output in watts because of the latitude and temperature. Tilting at it's best will only see a few minutes a day where the panels are perpendicular to the sun so while it is better, it's not worth the effort unless you can tilt from the ground. Never get on the roof unless you have to. Search for discounts, free shipping. and out of state suppliers as there will be no tax. Ebay purchases will be taxed. Most all controllers do bluetooth/internet, temp probe, etc. and have remote display as an option. Make sure the contoller includes the display, etc with no options other than a shunt. The prices can add up. Wiring, circuit breakers, are cheap for the good stuff off ebay or direct.

See my installation photos from past posts.

Pierce

Re: Solar Upgrade

Reply #7 – May 07, 2020, 05:38:26 pm

Glenn, use the space you have and get better panels. 1200-1400 watts is good if you have the space. A Victron 150/85 will handle 1200 watts. The 150/100 will handle 1400 watts. You can use multiple controllers but if you plan ahead a single controller is less money than two or three controllers and more efficient.
Victron SmartSolar MPPT 150/85-Tr with Built-In Bluetooth

Find panels you like, make cardboard templates, see how they fit. You should be able to get 4 full sized panels on your roof, maybe 5. If you want to sacrifice ever being able to service anything on your roof again with out moving panels, maybe six. But consider access to roof top equipment during your layout. You can use screws on the mounts but it may limit locations. The small commercial panel mounts don't get you much room for VHB tape. Bigger mounts have much more bonding area.

I like panels wired in parallel. Less issues with shade. There are good arguments either way but in a mobile application parallel seems to be better. Saving a bit of $ on cables by wiring in series is insignificant in the total cost and increases shade losses. Use commercial grade solar panel cable sized for the length, waterproof connectors make attachment easier. Make sure the panels are each fused and the output of the charge controller is switched and fused as well.

None of this is all that hard to do yourself once you have done some homework, figured out what your needs and expectations are, developed a good plan and how to do it.

A good solar system combined with sufficient storage gets you a long time off the grid with little or no generator time. Be sure you know what your power needs are to make it happen.

Re: Solar Upgrade

Reply #8 – May 07, 2020, 06:29:27 pm

GleamB what other equipment do you have or intend to have?

inverter/chargers/solar controllers are all rated differently.

Some will take 240 volt panels.

Some have the programming profile to charge lifeline AGM batteries

Some have cooling fans while others simply derate if too hot.

An integrated system would be useful?

Re: Solar Upgrade

Reply #9 – May 07, 2020, 08:55:54 pm

Learning to live on solar is the key. I have 400 watts, four golf cart batteries, and a hundred dollar controller and live extensively off grid. Of course, if you're loaded..................

Re: Solar Upgrade

Reply #10 – May 07, 2020, 09:35:43 pm

Like twig said no matter how much solar you have ya still have to manage your usage. Like others said you might be well served to just start over, with the new panels it's a no brainer. If your willing to do the work it's not rocket science.

Re: Solar Upgrade

Reply #11 – May 07, 2020, 09:40:22 pm

Quote from: Twig – May 07, 2020, 08:55:54 pm

Learning to live on solar is the key. I have 400 watts, four golf cart batteries, and a hundred dollar controller and live extensively off grid. Of course, if you're loaded..................

I spent just over $1400 total for everything top quality. And we are not loaded. See my old price and source list.

Pierce.

Re: Solar Upgrade

Reply #12 – May 08, 2020, 03:39:10 am

Quote from: Roger & Susan in Home2 – May 07, 2020, 05:38:26 pm

Glenn, use the space you have and get better panels..... ......Use commercial grade solar panel cable sized for the length, waterproof connectors make attachment easier. Make sure the panels are each fused and the output of the charge controller is switched and fused as well.

Especially accurate advise from Roger, and others. I would only add: Choose your suppliers of components carefully. AmSolar and Bay Marine will support you before and after your purchase for any purchase like Victron Smartsolar chargers, etc. Buying the lowest price components may in the long run not be prudent. An example is "commercial grade wire" that Roger mentioned. Much of the cheap solar wire on the internet is not uv or sun resistant and nothing more than copper plated aluminum, thus inferior and causing havoc with lengh/loss charts. I bought all my wire from AmSolar insuring it was uv/sunlight resistant, 100% copper wire. I really like their connection wire for the roof, they call Roof wire, $3.00 foot, that puts the two, neg and pos, leads in one round grey jacketed wire, makes for a clean, protected installation.

Cables

I also remember gracerace, on our forum, strongly recommending Windy Nation I have never used them, however, they list their solar extension wire as UL approved and that it has uv/sunlight resistance.
Solar Cable & Wire

Re: Solar Upgrade

Reply #13 – May 08, 2020, 09:51:20 am

Another source for good/excellent wire is Marine Wire like Ancor: fine strand, tin coated for corrosion resistance. No, not cheap.

Wire and Cable | Ancor

Re: Solar Upgrade

Reply #14 – May 08, 2020, 09:55:53 am

Any of these project can be expensive or not, the biggest cost is in labor if someone else does it. My entire 1200 watt system cost about $1600 all in and done right. I got commercial panels delivered to MN for less than $160 each. Current 330 or 350 watt panels can be more than $300 or even more. Charge controllers are not going to vary much. Wire, switches, fuses, mounts can be a couple hundred buck or twice that. It took me more time to clean, compound and apply a non-slip polish to the roof everywhere except the mount locations than it did to install the panels. Plan the project carefully, plan the work carefully, make sure you have all that you need to complete it and then get it done.

Wire in the roof needs to be UV resistant and tough. Flexibility us there is not so important. Connecting from your fuse block to the controller then to switches, fuses and batteries is much easier using fine strand wire sized for the current and length. Marine tinned wire is good once you are outside the basement spaces or just make sure your cable ends are done with adhesive lined heat shrink tubing.

I used WindyNation 8 and 10 ga solar cables. Their price direct is about as good as you can find. If you have two panels at the front of your coach and need 30 ft to get to the fuse block get a pair of 60 ft cables and cut them in half. Colors on one panel will be reversed, use some heat shrink at the controller end to change colors. It was cheaper than buying two sets of 30 ft cables. Pricing now may be different. I wanted to proper connector for the panels at one end and a bare end at the other. A pair of 60 ft 8ga cqbles with connectors is about 60¢ per ft.

Re: Solar Upgrade

Reply #15 – May 08, 2020, 11:04:47 am

I used Northern Arizona Wind and Sun Northern Arizona Wind & Sun | Off Grid & Grid-Tied Solar Power Systems for our Midnite 150 controller and circuit breakers. They were very helpful and since they were out of state, no tax. The Midnite controller is made in Washington State and were also super helpful with the technical aspects of the installation. They also do 24 delivery on any controller issues with a 5 year warranty and a max of $125 for repairs done out of warranty.

Wiring the panels is a bit trickier as all parallel gets rid of the shading problem (loss) but requires larger wires and yes, avoid aluminum wire like the plague. Quote:
The downside to parallel systems is that high amperage is difficult to travel long distances without using very thick wires. Systems as high as 1000 Watts might end up outputting over 50 amps which is very difficult to transfer, especially in the systems were your panels are more than 10 feet from your controller, in which case you would have to go to 4 AWG or thicker which can be expensive in long run. Also, paralleling systems require extra equipment such as branch connectors or combiner box.

Important to have good feng shui when others inspect your roof and interior installation.

Good source of wiring info: Series vs Parallel Connections Explained | Renogy Solar

Aside from using Hardie Backerboard for our fridge and engine compartment, I also used it in the compartment for all the solar/controller/battery connections just in case there was a short or vibration caused anything to come loose.

I installed the controller in the living space as I don't like to bend over too much with an ancient back and it also shortens the run from the roof panels to the controller. I used large welding cables from the controller to the battery bus in the compartment below. Also CB were used for both the panel and battery side of the controller as well as a fusible link at the electrical bus below.

No, this is not rocket science so you just need a checklist for each part of the planning and installation. Since most here are retired, you have plenty of time to research and source. I like to plan but then think about it for a while before cutting holes, drilling, etc. Since Foretravel makes a good looking coach, it pays to do some planning so the solar installation is up to those standards. Easy to go to the hardware store and adapt hinges, etc but the result may look very shade tree.

Pierce

Re: Solar Upgrade

Reply #16 – May 08, 2020, 12:34:14 pm

Marine tinned wire with the UL 1427 on it has pvc as a coating not rubber. Rubber supports flames. Drips off. Allows shorting. Pvc wiring chars and the coating does not drip off and keeps the wires separated hence it's required use on boats

Re: Solar Upgrade

Reply #17 – May 08, 2020, 01:15:11 pm

I'm in the research mode too. I did a smaller fully self-sufficient solar system on our previous travel trailer so I have some experience.

Here is a screenshot of the Sketchup model that I have for planning the roof layout. This is just one of my optional layouts. I played with ones that would cover nearly all open space just to explore what's possible. PM me if you want the sketchup file. It's for our 38ft but could be stretched and fixtures re-positioned to match anything. It's a lot easier than working with cardboard cutouts up on the roof.

Re: Solar Upgrade

Reply #18 – May 08, 2020, 01:18:17 pm

If you have a rear ladder, you are now making it unusable.

And, in front what happened with the TV antenna?

Re: Solar Upgrade

Reply #19 – May 08, 2020, 01:41:13 pm

Our right rear solar panel is mounted about 5 inches in front of the wrap-around aluminum tubing with the ladder bolted to the rear cap almost against the round aluminum tubing so the ladder still works without any modification. You just have to be careful where you put your foot but not a big deal. All Foretravels are not the same up top as the year, length and bathroom location may have the vents located in a different spot. I did have to eliminate the rear radio antenna.

As you can see in the photo, the front driver's side solar panel requires the TV antenna be oriented in a side to side configuration.

All four of our panels are 39"x77" so shorter 39"x 65" panels may give more room where needed. Our U300 is 36 feet.

Pierce

Re: Solar Upgrade

Reply #20 – May 08, 2020, 01:43:32 pm

We have a Winegard Rayzar automatic (flat dome) TV antenna, represented as one of the circles. We will likely strip off the DirecTV dome.

As to the ladder. This is just one of the captured layout samples I have mocked up. Nothing is final. I also started measuring the flat surface not including the radius to the walls. Here is another one that has more ladder space but could cover almost the entire roof. All solar panel sizes are actual models available. I really just wanted to convey that SketchUp is a great tool to mock this up.

Re: Solar Upgrade

Reply #21 – May 08, 2020, 03:32:35 pm

It gets expensive to start using smaller panels to fill in spaces. AM Solar makes their own custom sized panels to make fitting motorhomes with more panels possible. Many of those panels are well over $500. You can get close to 400 watts per panel in standard sizes. For many 1200 to 1500 is good for most circumstances. I have 1200, I would like more but mostly for those low sun angle winter days. April to September we are usually self sufficient. It is really nice to go to a NP CG for a week or 10 days and not need the generator. We have done it in the Tetons and in Yellowstone. Everyones power needs, storage capacity, expectations and ability to manage power use is different. Solar is just one more way to use your coach.

Re: Solar Upgrade

Reply #22 – May 08, 2020, 08:42:24 pm

I was able to get 3 of my panels for $100.00 each, on Craigslist, 4th panel was $175.00 as I wanted the same exact panel as the first 3 and the company had gone out of business. The last 3 were $125.00 each off Craigslist and go to a different controller so all is good. I could have moved the panels further to the outside to make it easier to walk between them, but it is still doable for me at this time.

Re: Solar Upgrade

Reply #23 – May 08, 2020, 10:24:45 pm

With this link on solar, I went up on the roof with a piece of cardboard to see where the panels would fit. When I bought this rig it
came with 4 270 watt panels, controller inverter, lots of wire and some breakers. The only thing I see missing is the feeder box for the
breakers to go in. I think I will paint the roof before I put them up. The paint on the roof looks good but if it is wet it is too slippery
to walk on and in the winter I have to go up and sweep the snow off, so I want better traction.

Re: Solar Upgrade

Reply #24 – May 09, 2020, 03:47:23 pm

If I were doing it again I would replace the window awnings with solar panels that could be propped up when parked and simply go with that. Way too ole to continually try to out do the next guy. Looking at some of the layouts I am reminded to trying to walk between panels and slipping. Bad cut the my knee. Then the worst part is getting down and trying to clean up the blood before the DW says "I told you so!"

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