Transfer switch Question

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Transfer switch Question

May 25, 2020, 12:27:42 pm

Since we had an issue with our inverter transfer switch hanging up, we have decided to change our two transfer switches. We are choosing to go with the automatic transfer switches to keep things simple and automatic.

After much research we decided to go with the Progressive Dynamics PD52 transfer switch. The switches are set up for the generator relay to be primary.

Transfer switch number 1 is no issue in setting it up. The generator relay on the old transfer switch is on the right and shore power is on the left. On transfer switch number 2 the inverter is on the right side, and shore power on the right.

I don't know if these old Magnatec transfer switches have the generator side set up as primary. If they are then the inverter transfer switch does not make sense. My thinking on the new inverter transfer switch is that shore power should be primary and the inverter should be secondary. What do you electrical gurus say about this? Looking to call Progressive Dynamics but they are closed for the holiday.

Thank in advance,
John M.

Re: Transfer switch Question

Reply #1 – May 25, 2020, 04:12:07 pm

John if I was shopping for a transfer switch, I would look at this from am solar. am solar

Re: Transfer switch Question

Reply #2 – May 25, 2020, 05:28:09 pm

Quote from: Journey, Roam, Explore – May 25, 2020, 04:12:07 pm

John if I was shopping for a transfer switch, I would look at this from am solar. am solar

Bob,
Looks great! I think you need the multiplus inverter to work efficiently with that switch. I don't have it. I still have the old Prosine. It is also on the list for a later date.
Thanks, John M.

Re: Transfer switch Question

Reply #3 – May 25, 2020, 05:30:14 pm

Will work with a hybrid magnum 3012

Re: Transfer switch Question

Reply #4 – May 25, 2020, 08:34:53 pm

Quote from: Journey, Roam, Explore – May 25, 2020, 04:12:07 pm

John if I was shopping for a transfer switch, I would look at this from am solar. am solar

John M. Congrats on solving your issue. It is always rewarding to have done what you accomplished. For me when I replaced mine, one of my rewards was the better understanding of how all the AC and DC wiring worked. I noticed no one answered your question about shoreline or generator priority; All I found online was on beamalarm showing FT from 1979 to mid 1994 had generator priority and later ones went to shore priority. As you said, maybe someone will help with this.

Thank you Journey,Roam,Explore for the link, nice to know this is available. I had many customers that if they knew this was available, they would want it right now. For me, not so much. This reminds me of when power windows came out, I thought who is unable to roll their windows up and down. Now, yes, no power windows is a deal breaker, my cars must have power windows.

For me, the only downside other than the almost $2,000 to do a self install (plus any battery upgrade) for me is the fact that "The inverter system's no load draw will be higher because of the installation of the SPS. To see what the true draw is, turn off all the breakers in your RV's main panel and then check the AC draw using your system monitor." I am surprised they do not list a range, however, I am sure AmSolar would let you know if asked.

For now using my Xantrex SW2012, my solar, with 3 AGM8Ds, I am just fine. For someone putting in a new inverter, this of course would be an easier choice. Maybe in a couple years I may think different. Right now since I am primarily plugged in, and have my generator as a backup plan B, I am just fine. 600 ah of lithium batteries will be more likely a priority for me before gaining the benefits of this smart automatic transfer switch they summarize below.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/562bc73de4b0908330f67ee0/t/5bc7b204e4966bd287351f32/1539813892659/Smart+Automatic+ATS+Explained.pdf

Re: Transfer switch Question

Reply #5 – May 25, 2020, 11:30:23 pm

Jack, I use a manual blue sea systems transfer switch. It's foolproof. Make or break so no chance of both AC sources being together. Installed by am solar for a PO. But if I was to do it again, would use the same system.
But John wants a automatic system and that system from am solar looks like a great system. But only if you use a inverter that does power share.

Re: Transfer switch Question

Reply #6 – May 26, 2020, 12:25:10 am

Original beaver coaches had a manual changeover switch mounted in the driver side bedroom sidewall cabinet at a more convenient chest high position. Breakers were there. As was a marine 12 volt resettable circuit panel.

Yes they had a dual layer outer wall and skin. Separate pieces. Hung wall. Electrical run in the inner wall.

Only way you could paint the exterior and not have it delam and be totally flat

Re: Transfer switch Question

Reply #7 – May 26, 2020, 10:16:46 am

Thank you all! I got my answer from Progressive Dynamics today.
John M.

Re: Transfer switch Question

Reply #8 – May 26, 2020, 12:47:29 pm

See the thread here about the new battery technology coming up.

Re: Transfer switch Question

Reply #9 – May 27, 2020, 06:22:11 pm

We installed the two transfer switches today. Installation was a breeze. The two transfer switches Progressive Dynamics PD52 are set up with Generator Priority. On the inverter transfer switch number 2, I had to put inverter power on the Shoreline relay and the Shoreline input on the Generator relay. Because of the Generator priority.

Transfer switch number 1 was as directed on the schematic. Tested all options Shoreline, Generator and Inverter Power and everything works great. The only thing I noticed is that there is a 20 to 45 time delay on the Generator relay then it disengages the inverter. There is a jumper where I can bypass the delay. I just might leave it way. We will have to observe the process.

The main reason for replacing the transfer switches was because of the old Inverter Transfer Switch hung up and created havoc. Also, everytime I disconnected shore power inverter power was a hit or miss. Sometimes I had to drive without the inverter. Now with the new transfer switch it is working flawlessly. I was ready to replace my Inverter. Maybe this switch solved my inverter issues.

All is good and no humming from the new transfer switches.

John M.

Re: Transfer switch Question

Reply #10 – May 27, 2020, 07:00:54 pm

John, did you mean engage inverter, not disengage, as you said? Yes, normally you want the delay on shore power everytime, for sure, to allow for A/C startup, etc. I still make sure all is powered down, when connecting to shore power, with final connection by turning on shore power 50 amp circuit breaker on the pedestal.

A delay on either would appear to correct a high current draw on either shore power or inverter, damaging the ATS contacts when they are not fully engaged. This would be another good question for Progressive. I look forward to what they tell you.

I know my Xantrex SW2012 has a built-in transfer switch that automatically transfers between inverter power and incoming AC power and is fed from the circuit breaker panel, fed by the PD52 ATS, as I have wired in the same Progressive PD52 ATS as you have. When I installed the PD52, Progressive told me that was ok, it would just be redundant.

I have a power meter hooked up to my residential refrigerator, and I did notice that when I interrupted the shore power, I have a delay to when the Xantrex fires up. So, I have the same delay on the inverter as you have, I am not sure it is from my Xantrex SW2012 built in ATS or the Progressive PD52 ATS.

I noticed no one answered your question about shoreline or generator priority, which is the correct way to connect; All I found online was on beamalarm showing FT from 1979 to mid 1994 had generator priority and later ones went to shore priority. As you said, maybe someone will help with this.

Re: Transfer switch Question

Reply #11 – May 27, 2020, 07:31:48 pm

Jack,
With the shoreline off, inverter transfer switch is engaged on the shore side of the the inverter transfer switch. I plug in, EMS goes through it's cycle, transfer switch number 1 engages. Inverter is still connected to the sub panel till the Generator relay engages after time out. Which is about 20-45 seconds. After the time delay, Generator relay engages with shoreline power and at the same time inverter/shore relay disengages allowing the sub panel to be powered with shoreline power. I'm thinking the delay will help power stabilize before engaging the sub panel. I tested power at the input power of the inverter/shoreline relay and power from the inverter is still there. Relay is just open.

Little confusing, since I have use the shore power relay for the inverter and the Generator relay for shore power, but it works. If I bypass the time out cycle on Generator relay on the inverter transfer switch, shore power would be instant across both transfer switches. I think I'm going to leave the delay for now and watch the power transfer closely. Just have to get use to it.

Now to work on moving my Progressive Industries EMS from the outside to underneath the bed. Then I will install the Hughes Watchdog outside. This way I can monitor shore power through my phone.
John M.

Re: Transfer switch Question

Reply #12 – May 29, 2020, 07:37:32 pm

Just when I thought all was good the gremlin returned. After installing the transfer switches I started to have the same problems again. Long story short. Battery charger on the inverter is toast. It was shorted out causing the transfer switch to fail on line 1. Now that the charger does not want to work at all. We currently have the charger on the inverter turned off at the breaker, ran everything and all is good. Ran the inverter, Shoreline and generator all separately and tested all outlets and all is good. Now we don't have a charger. I have to go to Illinois and won't have time to swap out the inverter and was looking for a way to charge the batteries. I will change out the inverter when I return to Florida. I was looking at the OPTIMA DIGITAL 1200
12V PERFORMANCE CHARGER and BATTERY MAINTAINER. It charges flooded and AGM batteries. I have a regular charger but I don't know if it will charge the house batteries correctly. Does anyone have any other options I can explore.

John M.

Re: Transfer switch Question

Reply #13 – May 29, 2020, 08:28:50 pm

I looked at Iota chargers some years back but never purchased one. They have a 55A model that plugs into a standard 15a 120v outlet. I don't think they are programmable but they do have plug in modules that change the charge profile for the battery type you have.
https://www.iotaengineering.com

Re: Transfer switch Question

Reply #14 – May 29, 2020, 08:33:40 pm

What amp is the battery charger you have? For a short time I don't think the agm and flooded profile would matter. You need to figure how long you are on the pedestal and the amps of the charger to keep them charged. Running down the road you will keep them up off the alternator.

Re: Transfer switch Question

Reply #15 – May 30, 2020, 12:48:24 am

Check negative reviews on Amazon for this charger, which is likely not made or designed for Optima, but badged with their name.

Re: Transfer switch Question

Reply #16 – May 30, 2020, 01:09:58 am

Fast idle will bulk 100 plus amps per hour. Noisy but works.

Two portable auto type chargers can be clipped to the house batteries and run off the gen. Mine put out 60 amps.

Times two? Cheap. I carry one normally. A few hd extension cords plugged into separate circuits?

Do you have solar?

I have to get another smart charger now that I read this.

Or 2 that match

Edit: I looked and it puts out 30amps

Re: Transfer switch Question

Reply #17 – May 30, 2020, 08:17:44 am

My biggest question is what size is needed. They come in so many amp sizes. Looking for one can be overwhelming. 🤔😟🤪
Is a large amp charger required to maintain the charge of batteries?
Thank you,
John M

Re: Transfer switch Question

Reply #18 – May 30, 2020, 08:21:42 am

For John Morales, the original poster. Their are many choices, much depends on timing, needs, and budget.

Xantrex Truecharge2 40 amp
Amazon.com: Xantrex TRUECHARGE 2 40A 12VDC 3 BANK BATTERY CHARGER (33599):...

Many chargers, from a company in Oregon I've bought from, 21 amps and above. Your FT OEM Prosine 2.5 had a 50 amp charger.
12 Volt Smart Battery Chargers: 21 Amps and Above

Xantrex Truecharge2 Manual
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pr60tgn820g5nqv/975-0526-01-02_Rev-D%28Truecharge2%20Battery%20Charger%20Owners%20Guide%29.pdf?dl=0

This Xantrex 3000 XC Pro inverter/charger is being released about June 10, 2020 with 150 amp charger, bluetooth remote display, etc., looks interesting. The 2000 XC Pro is available now.

Xantrex Freedom Xc Pro 3000 Inverter/Charger - 3000w - 150a - 120v - 12v

https://youtu.be/QGcWMlBo1WE
Xantrex XC Pro literature.
http://www.xantrex.com/power-products/inverter-chargers/freedom-xcpro.aspx

Victron unit, hat many are happy with and have bought on this forum. If you buy I'd recommend Bay Marine, as the offer support others do not, and they offer a discount to forum members.
Victron Multiplus Inverter/Charger 12 Vdc - 3000w - 120amp Battery Charger -...

What I have.
Xantrex Freedom Sw2012 12v 2000w Inverter/Charger

What I wish I had bought, because of 150 amp charger. Requires changing ac and dc wiring for bigger capacity, at the time I did not want to do. I could have just reduced settings until I upgraded wiring.
Xantrex Freedom Sw3012 12v 3000w Inverter/Charger

The lowest priced inverter/charger I would recommend. Two others on this forum are using this.
Xantrex Freedom Xc 2000 True Sine Wave Inverter/Charger - 12vdc - 120vac -...

This is a better low priced inverter/charge. You may want optional bluetooth remote panel, and optional temperature sensor.
Xantrex Freedom Xc 2000 True Sine Wave Inverter/Charger - 12vdc - 120vac -...

Xantrex Freedom Xc Pro 3000 Inverter/Charger - 3000w - 150a - 120v - 12v

As an Amazon Associate Foretravel Owners' Forum earns from qualifying purchases.

Re: Transfer switch Question

Reply #19 – May 30, 2020, 09:04:04 am

John,

Much of the answer depends on how much driving vs being in an RV park you will do. If driving daily, the alternator will keep you going.

If not, I would buy a CHEAP 60 or so amp "stupid" automotive charger. Only negative is that you will need to monitor battery voltage so that it does not go too high.

Said another way, I would not invest in a high quality/expensive smart charger for one trip.

Re: Transfer switch Question

Reply #20 – May 30, 2020, 09:49:39 am

Quote from: John Morales – May 29, 2020, 07:37:32 pm

Just when I thought all was good the gremlin returned. After installing the transfer switches I started to have the same problems again. Long story short. Battery charger on the inverter is toast. It was shorted out causing the transfer switch to fail on line 1. Now that the charger does not want to work at all. We currently have the charger on the inverter turned off at the breaker, ran everything and all is good. Ran the inverter, Shoreline and generator all separately and tested all outlets and all is good. Now we don't have a charger. I have to go to Illinois and won't have time to swap out the inverter and was looking for a way to charge the batteries. I will change out the inverter when I return to Florida. I was looking at the OPTIMA DIGITAL 1200
12V PERFORMANCE CHARGER and BATTERY MAINTAINER. It charges flooded and AGM batteries. I have a regular charger but I don't know if it will charge the house batteries correctly. Does anyone have any other options I can explore.

John M.

John, I have that charger, bought for my now replaced optima batteries that are replaced with odyssey batteries. Seems to do a good job charging them. Its not installed in the coach so I can use it to charge my jeep batteries as well. It's only 12 amps. Not sure it would do a great job keeping house bank charged. I'm glad I have it though.
When you can, I highly recommend a victron multiple inverter charger.

Re: Transfer switch Question

Reply #21 – May 30, 2020, 10:28:13 am

Quote from Journey, Roam, "Not sure it would do a great job keeping house bank charged. I'm glad I have it though. When you can, I highly recommend a victron multiple inverter charger."

Agreed, this (1200) is a great charger, well suited for charging chassis batteries or dingy battery. However it would be not as great for charging a house bank such as the 725ah+ bank that John M. has. The manual for the 1200 I attached below states charger is for 40-130ah batteries., page16, #28. That is why I recommend to John the above Xantrex Truecharge2 40 amp in my post above.

As wolf10 says, yes, an inexpensive 60 amp charger, from say Walmart, will get you thru one trip just fine. As he said, monitor voltage, to see charge rate does not go over 14.4-14.5 to protect your AGMs.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/eegb0a2n2gmug4t/Digital_1200_Battery_Charger_Manual.pdf?dl=0 topics

Re: Transfer switch Question

Reply #22 – May 30, 2020, 12:06:42 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – May 30, 2020, 09:04:04 am

John,

Much of the answer depends on how much driving vs being in an RV park you will do. If driving daily, the alternator will keep you going.

If not, I would buy a CHEAP 60 or so amp "stupid" automotive charger. Only negative is that you will need to monitor battery voltage so that it does not go too high.

Said another way, I would not invest in a high quality/expensive smart charger for one trip.

Brett,
I have a charger I carry with me that does a 10 A fast charge, a 2 A float charge and a 55 A engine start. Can I use this?
John M.

Re: Transfer switch Question

Reply #23 – May 30, 2020, 12:10:10 pm

Again depends on how long you are parked (not charging with the alternator) and how much 12 VDC power you are using while parked.

10 amps won't keep up with much of a load, but if starting with fully charged batteries from driving all day, you should be OK for an overnight.

Re: Transfer switch Question

Reply #24 – May 30, 2020, 12:28:02 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – May 30, 2020, 12:10:10 pm

10 amps won't keep up with much of a load, but if starting with fully charged batteries from driving all day, you should be OK for an overnight.

I agree with Brett. You have time to moniter charger. Start out with fully charged batteries to make sure charging voltage does not go above East Penn recommendation, to not go above 14.6 volts maximum, at 68 degrees, with recommended between 14.4-14.6.

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