A couple of questions based on recent air filter postings

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A couple of questions based on recent air filter postings

August 18, 2020, 03:20:23 pm

I'll try to be a brief as possible but I have some questions. The we bought the coach 7 years ago, the PO included a new air filter that he had. About a year later, I removed the old filter and installed the new filter. I have to admit that at the time, I didn't look very closely and compare the two filters. I've learned a lot since then.

About 3 years ago, I realized that the filter minder had not moved in the entire time I had owned the coach so I did a little trouble shooting and found a pinched place between the filter canister and the minder. I spliced in a patch and gave the hose the suck test after removing it from the filter canister outlet. Filter minder appears to work as advertised.

Recent postings on the forum enlightened me to the fact that the filter needed a hole in the narrow end and a gasket at both ends. I had no idea what was actually in my canister so thought that might be why I was getting no reading on the minder. Based on recommendations here, I ordered a Donaldson Blue filter (took about 7 weeks due to stock issues). When the filter arrived, it did not have a gasket or hole in the narrow end. I took the old gasket off and installed it on the new filter, punched a hole in the end and am now ready to put the new filter back in the filter canister. I also cleaned the filter canister and suck checked the minder from the inside of the canister lid. Seems to work fine.

I have included a couple of pictures of the old and new filters.

Here are my questions:

1. Is it possible to drive 50K miles and have the filter clean enough that the filter minder never moves?

2. If I had installed the filter without switching the gasket, is the canister short enough to keep the gasket on the large end of the filter pressed into place and sealed? It seems to me that this could be a problem.

3. It must be possible to buy a filter with the small end gasket and hole for the filter minder, because that is what the PO left me. What is the preferred manufacturer and model #?

Thanks for your help,

Rich

Re: A couple of questions based on recent air filter postings

Reply #1 – August 18, 2020, 04:08:05 pm

Rich,

I bought a Cummins filter for our 2-cycle Detroit. It did not have the gasket but I took a single sided razor blade and removed the old one and glued it on the Donaldson. Also punched a hole in the end of the filter as shown in my old post. Took a couple of minutes to do the two items. The Donaldson filter I bought WAS intended for a Cummins engine.

No, a gasket was needed on ours at both ends to seal the filter and make any intake air go through the filter, rather than around the ends where it would not be filtered. Perhaps you have a different design on your canister and your restriction gauge reading comes off a different location. Follow the small tube from the gauge to the point when the pressure differential is measured. Do you have a fitting for the tube on the end of your canister?

Hard to say as our Detroit uses more than twice as much air as the Cummins and the behind the rear air intake sucks everything up the tires throw at it so we are lucky to get 20,000 without it completely clogging. Donaldson must make a filter for your exact model. It was light years better constructed than the Wix that had partially collapsed

Pierce

Re: A couple of questions based on recent air filter postings

Reply #2 – August 18, 2020, 04:26:30 pm

You can see in the pictures where I cut and removed the gasket from the old filter and installed it in the new filter. My filter minder hose comes off the end of the filter canister.

If you can't get a new filter with a gasket, where do you get the gasket or gasket material to replace the old one when you can't recycle it to the new filter anymore?

Rich

Re: A couple of questions based on recent air filter postings

Reply #3 – August 18, 2020, 04:43:41 pm

Answer to question # 1,no unless filter minder not working,also don't let the filter get as dirty as the picture no matter what the filter minder does,and look on your filter canistor for a label stating a filter number,you should be able to find a filter with an end gasket
try the Donaldson site,if not get some foam wetherstripping and use that for the gasket,it just is a buffer between the filter end and the cap.

Re: A couple of questions based on recent air filter postings

Reply #4 – August 18, 2020, 04:56:39 pm

John,

In this case, it has to be a real gasket if there is a hole in the end of the filter for the filter minder to function. Or, I can abandon the filter minder, get a filter without the hole in the end and just put some buffer material in. The question would be, "How much material Is sufficient to insure a good seal at the large end?"

Rich

Re: A couple of questions based on recent air filter postings

Reply #5 – August 18, 2020, 06:48:08 pm

Quote from: Rich Bowman – August 18, 2020, 03:20:23 pm

3. It must be possible to buy a filter with the small end gasket and hole for the filter minder... What is the preferred manufacturer and model #?

Rich,

The chart in beamalarm.com (the original archived version) lists 2 air filters for your engine. Try chasing down the specs on those filters, and see if they sound like what you need (hole in end + both gaskets). You can also search online for a crossover chart to find other brand filters that will supposedly interchange with the ones listed in the beamalarm chart.

cummins-isl-400hp-belts-filters-hoses-for-foretravel

Re: A couple of questions based on recent air filter postings

Reply #6 – August 18, 2020, 07:05:30 pm

Rich,

Are the filters in your photo cylindrical, or tapered? The photo makes them look cylindrical (at least to my eyes).

If there IS a big end and a small end, is the hole in the small end?

Here is the Donaldson listed in beamalarm. Appears to have gaskets on both ends, plus gaskets for the housing end caps:

Donaldson P148043

The Fleetguard AF1838 also appears to have gaskets on both ends. I could not find a listing for the AF1838M listed in beamalarm.

AF1838 - Fleetguard Air Filter | Free Shipping

Re: A couple of questions based on recent air filter postings

Reply #7 – August 18, 2020, 07:29:10 pm

They are tapered and I punched a hole when I transferred the gasket.

Thanks for the reference number for the Donaldson filter. Based on previous posts, I ordered a Donaldson DBA5029. Now I know there is a better part number.

Rich

Re: A couple of questions based on recent air filter postings

Reply #8 – August 18, 2020, 09:17:27 pm

Donaldson P148043 is what I used on our 2003 U320 ISM. Gaskets on both ends and the small hole for filter minder.

Re: A couple of questions based on recent air filter postings

Reply #9 – August 18, 2020, 10:45:45 pm

Rich, the hole enables engine intake low pressure out of the canister into the space between the gasket and the canister end. In this space the filter minder registers the engine's low pressure sucking in outside air. As the filter clogs up the engine has to work harder to suck in enough air.

If you use a filter with no hole then the filter minder will not work as it is connected. But a filter with no hole will work just as well.

When my engine was rebuilt after an air filter failure the Cummins mechanic who rebuilt the engine suggested replacing the filter every three years as regular maintenance. If you open the canister for any reason replace the filter.

I have been using the Donaldson Blue Air Filter- DBA5029. No hole, no gasket at the small,end. Air moves in from the side, out the end.

Re: A couple of questions based on recent air filter postings

Reply #10 – August 18, 2020, 11:02:09 pm

The only reason for a gasket on the small end on ours is for the restriction gauge tube in the canister end. I could take a reading other places and just glue a piece of foam on the end to compress the sealing gasket on the big end of the filter.

I usually pull the filter once a year to look at it. Plus, there are always sticks and leaves in bottom of the canister. The engine sucks up anything it can from the road. Easy to put the filter back in the same place.

Pierce

Re: A couple of questions based on recent air filter postings

Reply #11 – August 18, 2020, 11:26:15 pm

Pierce
I have wondered about our filter a few times and thought I would look at it to see if it has been water damaged. All over the forum it is advised not to open the filter housing if you are not going to replace the filter. You open it, do you clean the outside first? The last thing I want to do is get dirt into the engine.
David
PS hi Rich!

Re: A couple of questions based on recent air filter postings

Reply #12 – August 19, 2020, 12:26:22 am

Treat it very carefully. Pull it straight out without banging it. Clean inside canister with a wet cloth to pickup any dust etc. If you want to clean the filter blow it out from inside the cone if your system sucks air from out to in. Reverse if opposite.
If yours gas been in service for a few years then just replace it with new is my suggestion. Mine has been in 5 yrs and vacuum gage has not moved. I have removed it once for inspection with no issues that I know of. It was a very light grey color after 4 yrs so my deflector has kept it in good shape
John h

Re: A couple of questions based on recent air filter postings

Reply #13 – August 19, 2020, 12:32:51 am

So, the end has 4 nuts on it. If you take them off, the end plate will come off and if half way careful, you can pull the element (air cleaner) out without dragging any dirt with it. Only the GVs have the rotten rear tire air intake so any other should not have anything aside from dust/light dirt on the bottom of the canister. Since ours takes the uncleaned air from the outside of the filter, passes it through the element and then the clean air goes out the end to the tubing that feeds the turbo. So, even if you got the outside of the filter dirty, no harm would be done as the anything on the outside has to go through to the inside. So, I don't worry.

I think the controversy has arisen because some air cleaners take the dirty air into the middle of the air cleaner and then out through the walls where the filtered air goes to the turbo. Pulling the element out could introduce dirt to the canister where it could get into the engine.

The filter on ours centers itself when you put it back in so no big deal and hard to make a mistake.

Pierce

Re: A couple of questions based on recent air filter postings

Reply #14 – August 19, 2020, 07:04:13 am

Thanks Pierce and John, I have removed and inspected filters before and did not understand the issues for not inspecting.
Just installed my "Haygart" deflector two weeks ago, which made me want to open it up and establish that the filter is in good condition.
David

Re: A couple of questions based on recent air filter postings

Reply #15 – August 19, 2020, 09:52:22 am

Rich, did you see my post about the minder hose fitting being plugged at the filter housing? Make sure you do the suck test from both ends of the hose. BTW, the minder only registers when the engine is operated at WOT. If the coach is always driven gently, the mider may not register even though the filter is partially plugged.

Re: A couple of questions based on recent air filter postings

Reply #16 – August 19, 2020, 09:55:30 am

Some one tell me what can it possibly hurt pulling the air filter for inspection!!!( not the old tired line from From the filter people.) Assuming you clean the filter housing as you would if you where installing a new one. Notice I didn't say anything about attempting to clean the filter Personally I replace mine once a year any way, just like the oil and filter, but that's just me.

Re: A couple of questions based on recent air filter postings

Reply #17 – August 19, 2020, 10:12:39 am

From Donaldson: "Air filter service life should be determined by measuring airflow restriction – not by visual inspection alone." (See the last sentence in this quote, from Donaldson, for a reason why, to not visually inspect.)

"While new Donaldson air filters provide good engine protection, a Donaldson air filter that has been in service for a period of time works even better than a new one. The paper media in the filter is porous, which allows air to pass through it on its way to the engine. As dirty air passes through the filter, contaminant is caught in the media and begins plugging some of the pores.

As more dirty air enters the intake system, previously trapped contaminant helps to filter out even the smaller particles. This makes the filter even more efficient at preventing new contaminant from entering the engine, and the dirt particles become part of the filtering process. This is referred to as barrier filtration.

The efficiency of a Donaldson air filter continually increases with use until the level of restriction reaches the optimal maximum recommended by the engine manufacturer.

This restriction can only be measured with one of the following: Water Manometer, Service Gauge, or Restriction Indicator. Restriction measuring devices remove the guesswork from air cleaner servicing and allow you to safely benefit from the filter's optimum performance.

A major cause of over-servicing can sometimes be 'better to be safe than sorry' where users consider time or odometer readings rather than airflow restriction measurement to be used to determine when to service. In the case of air cleaners, more servicing is not better.

Servicing too frequently prevents the air filter from ever reaching its peak efficiency. In addition, the risk of engine damage increases every time the air filter is removed from the air cleaner housing."

Re: A couple of questions based on recent air filter postings

Reply #18 – August 19, 2020, 10:17:43 am

Good quote from Donaldson. I think the last paragraph is a catch all and pertains to inside out filters rather than outside in.

Pierce

Re: A couple of questions based on recent air filter postings

Reply #19 – August 19, 2020, 10:50:33 am

Thanks everyone for the replies. I was looking for some actual experience and got that input.

I saw the post about checking the hose both ways. I just sucked on the opening inside the canister cover and checked the entire length that way.

My filter seems pretty dirty to me but what do I know, never having any experience with diesel filters. I'll have to see if I get any movement on the filter minder with the new filter in place. Should I expect it to move some when I pull my first heavy load on the engine or does it need to get dirty before it starts to show any movement?

For Roger - I'm sure my canister setup is the same as yours. I did switch the small end gasket over to the new filter and punch a hole in the end of the filter so it matches the configuration I removed. I would be very concerned if I installed the new filter without the small end gasket, that the cover would not push the filter firmly against the large outlet end and make a good seal. In other words, I'd be afraid the filter would be too short for the canister even if I wasn't using the filter minder feature. How are you sure you are getting a good seal on the outlet end if your filter is now about 3/8" shorter than the OEM setup without the small end gasket installed?

Thanks again for all the info,

Rich

Re: A couple of questions based on recent air filter postings

Reply #20 – August 19, 2020, 11:24:27 am

Don't expect any movement on the gauge until the filter has a significant amount of dirt or is wet.

Know the maximum restriction for your engine. They are all different.

As I start to tighten the end cap nuts, I can feel a compression of the seals.

Note that the generator has a restriction gauge.

View restriction table below.

Pierce

Re: A couple of questions based on recent air filter postings

Reply #21 – August 19, 2020, 12:27:38 pm

Thanks for the chart.

Rich

Re: A couple of questions based on recent air filter postings

Reply #22 – August 19, 2020, 02:00:22 pm

From the coaches around my year what I have noticed is that the air filter is not the same for every engine,you could have 3 8.3's with different filter canisters with different filters,some have the water trap in front of the filter,some have the side intake and some
have the one by the camera,most have a donaldson canister with a label somewhere.

Re: A couple of questions based on recent air filter postings

Reply #23 – August 19, 2020, 04:39:33 pm

Rich, the canister end cap will compress and seal the opposite end with or without the gasket on the small end. That gasket isolates the area inside of that gasket from outside air and opens it to engine vacuum via the hole you made.

The canisters are the same size for filters with and without the small end gasket. When Cummins rebuilt my engine they used a filter without an end gasket.

If the small end gasket fails you are sucking in unfiltered air through the hole.

A dusted engine will cost you $15-25K to repair, rebuilt or replace. The best air filters are less than $100. Get a good filter with wire mesh inside and out. If it has a small end gasket and a hole then the filter minder will (maybe) work. The filters take some time to reach peak efficiency. I think that is why they suggested a three year replacement cycle. The filter minders are good if they are functional and you pay attention to them. They may never really tell you what is going on.

Re: A couple of questions based on recent air filter postings

Reply #24 – August 19, 2020, 08:14:49 pm

Roger,

I'm glad you are getting a good seal. That was my big concern.

Rich

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