Hydraulic fan controller DIY

Topic: Hydraulic fan controller DIY (Read 4792 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Hydraulic fan controller DIY

Reply #25 – November 23, 2020, 08:25:05 am

Quote from: krush – November 22, 2020, 11:15:30 pm

It is very unlikely there will be a condition where the fans will not be spinning when you actually need the charge air cooler to cool incoming air.

Specifically: when the turbo is making boost and the charge air needs to be cooled, the engine will be under load. When the engine is under load, it makes heat. When it makes heat, the coolant gets hot. When coolant gets hot, the "wax valve" senses it and runs the fans.

Notable exception will be on first starting out/before coolant up to temperature. Climbing a grade in the first 10-15 minutes could result in excessively high intake air temps. I would feel more comfortable with a restrictor that gave LOW to HIGH not OFF to HIGH.

Re: Hydraulic fan controller DIY

Reply #26 – November 23, 2020, 08:37:53 am

I remember Monaco doing testing in AZ heat pulling a machine that simulated a constant load on the engine. Once I road in a side radiator Diplomat they were testing and it had multiple hookup wires and notebook computers hooked up like a person in ICU. The engineers were not happy with the results they were getting, and they were modifying various components on the exterior rear of the rv, and the programming of the ECU. The engineers were from both Monaco and the engine manufacturer.

Re: Hydraulic fan controller DIY

Reply #27 – November 23, 2020, 09:00:30 am

Quote from: wolfe10 – November 23, 2020, 08:25:05 am

Notable exception will be on first starting out/before coolant up to temperature. Climbing a grade in the first 10-15 minutes could result in excessively high intake air temps. I would feel more comfortable with a restrictor that gave LOW to HIGH not OFF to HIGH.

In thinking about this and what I've seen IAT must be maintained below 150 and colder is always denser. Having two flow control solenoids one for IAT at 30-50% and one for retarder at 100% with a manual control for pre shutdown cool down control Seems very desirable to me. I've drove our coach about 6k miles since we picked up at 100% fan speed the entire time. I really noticed the difference in the retarder temps and cool down time. Transmission temps also higher and was expected. Didn't give any thought about bedroom temperature till post drive and don't like at all. Manual Pre shutdown cool down will not effect engine temperature but will shed heat from radiator and engine compartment as it did in the past. Possibly trans temperature too? IAT can also be controlled by increasing baseline idle fan speed, but is a forever impact on fuel economy. Currently fans are turning ie not stalled but very low output. I felt that having them rotating even slowly was better than not. Very adjustable. If I get enough time I'll head down to Hoover dam today and watch how it performs pulling up the grade returning home.
Scott

Re: Hydraulic fan controller DIY

Reply #28 – November 23, 2020, 01:11:12 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – November 23, 2020, 08:25:05 am

Notable exception will be on first starting out/before coolant up to temperature. Climbing a grade in the first 10-15 minutes could result in excessively high intake air temps. I would feel more comfortable with a restrictor that gave LOW to HIGH not OFF to HIGH.

In this particular case, the engine is controlled by an ECU that monitors intake temps. If there is an issue with too high of intake temp, it will do something. What that something is, I don't know. But I have faith in the engineers at Cummins.

Historically, many diesel engines are turbocharged and do not have charge air coolers (CAC). CAC exist mainly for a power/efficiency reason on a diesel. There is not a detonation risk, such as on gas engines.

Nobody knows the actually effectiveness of the CAC with the original setup vs the current setup. Perhaps there really isn't much change in inlet air temps (IAT).

Re: Hydraulic fan controller DIY

Reply #29 – November 23, 2020, 01:13:28 pm

Those with Silverleaf or similar can report, but suspect in most cases that intake manifold temps with a properly clean CAC and properly running fans should be within 15-20 degrees of ambient temperature.

Here, lower/cooler is better.

Re: Hydraulic fan controller DIY

Reply #30 – November 23, 2020, 02:46:52 pm

Last winter in the morning I left with a cold engine at the bottom of a long climb and part way up the climb a warning light came
on in the dash indicating high intake air temp. I eased of on the throttle and it went away. At the time I didn't know what it was
and now I believe that the rad fans were only running on the slow speed as the engine was still cold so the intake temp was too
high. I have now learned that the intake temperature can let me know that I am pushing the engine too hard an to ease off or shift
down. I have learned that I can use the intake temperature like an exhaust temperature sensor so not to push the engine to
hard. I have now got the intake temperature on my silver leaf and I just have to figger out the temp to back off.

Re: Hydraulic fan controller DIY

Reply #31 – November 24, 2020, 05:13:21 pm

Quote from: oldguy – November 23, 2020, 02:46:52 pm

Last winter in the morning I left with a cold engine at the bottom of a long climb and part way up the climb a warning light came
on in the dash indicating high intake air temp. I eased of on the throttle and it went away. At the time I didn't know what it was
and now I believe that the rad fans were only running on the slow speed as the engine was still cold so the intake temp was too
high. I have now learned that the intake temperature can let me know that I am pushing the engine too hard an to ease off or shift
down. I have learned that I can use the intake temperature like an exhaust temperature sensor so not to push the engine to
hard. I have now got the intake temperature on my silver leaf and I just have to figure out the temp to back off.

This is the reason for a IAT sensor and solenoid set to 30-50% background speed. If higher than normal IAT temps are reached the IAT solenoid is closed and ramps fan rpm up automatically 30-50% without you knowing. The Retarder solenoid would close off fluid flow causing fans to go to high 100% causing additional dynamic braking and max cooling during retarder use. Extra cooling is always good, however it comes at a cost, fuel. But a nonissue if braking.
Scott

Re: Hydraulic fan controller DIY

Reply #32 – November 24, 2020, 05:20:31 pm

Quote from: krush – November 23, 2020, 01:11:12 pm

In this particular case, the engine is controlled by an ECU that monitors intake temps. If there is an issue with too high of intake temp, it will do something. What that something is, I don't know. But I have faith in the engineers at Cummins.

Historically, many diesel engines are turbocharged and do not have charge air coolers (CAC). CAC exist mainly for a power/efficiency reason on a diesel. There is not a detonation risk, such as on gas engines.

Nobody knows the actually effectiveness of the CAC with the original setup vs the current setup. Perhaps there really
Quote from: krush – November 23, 2020, 01:11:12 pm
In this particular case, the engine is controlled by an ECU that monitors
Actually the ECM Controller has been deleted and a wax controller installed. So this is hopefully preventing repeat failure of the controller in the future and improving fuel economy compared to running failed at 100%
Scott

Re: Hydraulic fan controller DIY

Reply #33 – November 24, 2020, 05:39:31 pm

First having the fan go to high speed while retarding makes sense. Second when I got my coach it already had a wax valve in it.
I gather from reading this post my coach didn't come this way.

Re: Hydraulic fan controller DIY

Reply #34 – November 24, 2020, 07:33:25 pm

Quote from: oldguy – November 24, 2020, 05:39:31 pm

Second when I got my coach it already had a wax valve in it.
I gather from reading this post my coach didn't come this way.

Your coach being a '99/ 320 came with a wax valve OEM. Seems like sometime in the 2000 year run is when they changed systems.

Mike

Re: Hydraulic fan controller DIY

Reply #35 – November 24, 2020, 08:35:37 pm

Quote from: oldguy – November 24, 2020, 05:39:31 pm

First having the fan go to high speed while retarding makes sense. Second when I got my coach it already had a wax valve in it.

So I am curious on what you baseline cold fan speed is set for?
If there is little air being pulled thru do to the low pressure behind the coach It would make sense to have a minimum airflow thru the system. Fuel cooler, CAC, radiator all need some loss of BTUs except if it's cold enough outside. I will never see me in those conditions again. Too cold. I would/will be on the near low side of fans speed if possible. Hasn't been warm enough last couple of days to see how it works. Been busy on other stuff too.
Scott

Re: Hydraulic fan controller DIY

Reply #36 – January 21, 2021, 11:42:02 am

Update to were am with this. I originally installed the wax valve in the lower hose past the transmission cooler. The engine temps are were I want them now, BUT the trans temp is running near 200 also. Retarder use is quite limited and takes forever to cool down. Really needs cooler source of coolant. Bedroom temperature stays saturated after shutdown. No good

Moved wax valve to upper hose. Back to being happier with retarder use and cool down better. Please understand I am comparing to A failed control system at 100% fans operation and it was much , much better with a max cooled radiator cooling transmission and bedroom was much cooler at 100% fan operation.

Next goal will be to add the Inlet air Temperature IAT control solenoid system
Maximum IAT with a below temp engine has been 139 at 70 OAT. When engine at operating temps it says below a 100.

Am planning to also add into the IAT solenoid And control. A additional ON command for retarder use with delay off timer and brakes for added dynamic braking, will be at low power settings. No cost to operate fans at 100%
Because I liked the100% cooling prior I want to add in a manual ON to pre cool engine compartment and Accessories before shut down. Good for the engine and components and good for the bedroom to dump a bunch of saturated heat before shut down. Especially in the summer.
I'm sure the IAT doesn't need 100% but won't hurt other than fuel used and when at compleat operating temperature seems the fans are partially engaged and maintain below a 100 IAT at 70 deg OAT.
Just need to locate part numbers and start acquiring them.
Scott

Re: Hydraulic fan controller DIY

Reply #37 – April 15, 2021, 11:02:13 pm

So updating my progress. Finished my Foretravel distractions last week. Sent off to powder coat and is out of my hair. My employer has summoned my return to work May 1 this year instead of 2022. BUMMER. So I had purchase s solenoid shut off valve. The desirable adjustable valve is 250$ compared to my two position shut off valve. Open/closed at 100$. It is a normally relaxed open valve. If installing the adjustable I still would of needed the shut off valve. The adjustable is used to operate fans at 40-50% for IAT reduction. The shut off valve will use more fuel during IAT requirements but duration is short and infrequent for my driving manners. The shut off valve runs the fans at 100% percent like a failed electronic controller. All of my coach miles I've driven was with a failed controller. 7500 miles. I installed a single pull double throw switch for controlling the fans. I was able to hook up the override command fans to hi position. Easy to hear fans speed change seated in the drivers seat. Will be installing a Bosch relay to signal max fan speed during brake and retarder use. Will use that same circuit for the IAT commanded on also. Being able to max cool the drivetrain makes a noticeable difference when shutting down coach. Was a unrealized benefit that I really like. I'll post solenoid info once if got a few miles on it. More to come.
Scott

Re: Hydraulic fan controller DIY

Reply #38 – April 20, 2021, 10:04:03 am

So real close to completion. Ordered a radiator electric fan control unit Amazon.com: Hayden Automotive 3651 Adjustable Thermostatic Fan Control:...
And will used for the auto mode of the fan controller. Was able to hook up to the first half of the control switch. So in this position if any of the following are met it turns the fans on.
Hi inlet air temperature IAT
Application of the retarder,
Application of the brakes.
The fan controller wasn't made for this application but works well in testing. Adjusted ON temperature to 150 degrees and it shuts OFF at 115 degrees. Can adjust more if needed. Installed the probe in the inlet duct after the CAC. The controller also has a input for air conditioning and this worked perfect for triggering from brakes and retarder circuit. A additional benefit is when the controller has triggered the fan operation this backfeeds the over ride portion of the control switch at the drivers seat illuminating the fan on hi indicator in the switch faceplate itself.
Normal operation will be in position one Auto and when desired for cool down can be placed in override position two. Auto has a small led indication and override has a larger led indication. Anytime the fans have been commanded on by any manner the large led is illuminated on the switch. I'll make up a wiring schematic and get photos soon. Still need to make switch spacer plate also to finish.
Scott

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Re: Hydraulic fan controller DIY

Reply #39 – April 20, 2021, 10:40:00 pm

So finally finished. Will take out for a test run in the morning. So really like having a indication of when the solenoid is engaged either manually or any of the other auto modes.
Scott

Re: Hydraulic fan controller DIY

Reply #40 – April 21, 2021, 02:41:56 pm

Went out and ran coach. Was unable to get hi enough IAT to set fans on, had operated with heat gun prior to set temperature but everything else worked as expected. Much better retarder heat performance than prior. Did notice I liked be able to operate in override position when ever I wanted, like entering a long downhill you could start precooling system ahead of entering downhill. 80 Deg OAT today and drove down to Hoover dam on the new I11 bypass around Boulder City. Retarded is working as it did before with fans failed to 100% on operation. Still don't know cooling fan speed or percentage of operation. Don't think I need too, won't change anything if I did. Pulling back up grade cooling system never exceeded 185 deg. Trans about 175 retarder 180. Switch in auto with no indication of 100% commanded. Also after extended retarder use when turning around at Kingman wash retarder temperature was already dropping from 240 deg s. This downhill was also using lower gears in trans. This prior would take some time to recover never immediately after the stop . I really like being able to command on to cool down before shutdown feature. All in all I'm very pleased and thankful for all the help. I'll post wiring diagram and other details to this post eventually.

Solenoid Operated Shut Off Valve, 2 Way, Normally Open, #8 SAE Ports
Note on special order available in #6

Plug
Deutsch DT06-2S Male Solenoid Connector w/ Wire Leads

Single pull double throw double lighted switch
Amazon.com: MGI SpeedWare LED Marine Rocker Switches 12V 20A, 3 Pack - SPDT...
Scott

Re: Hydraulic fan controller DIY

Reply #41 – April 24, 2021, 09:14:43 pm

As a datapoint to this thread, mine is a 99 U320 and does not have the wax valve. It has the electronic controller mounted down on the horizontal beam that the hitch is welded to. Mine will run on a lower fan speed until around 180F coolant temp at which point it revs up to 100% (at least it seems to be) and stays there. I don't think I've ever heard them turn back to low speed, even when it is cold out.

I really don't get bad fuel economy even though the fans are at 100%. 8-8.5mpg. Which is excellent when you consider we are 42', always run with 200 gallons of water and fuel and have a 6000 pound toad.

Re: Hydraulic fan controller DIY

Reply #42 – April 25, 2021, 11:15:49 am

Quote from: Mark D – April 24, 2021, 09:14:43 pm

As a datapoint to this thread, mine is a 99 U320 and does not have the wax valve. It has the electronic controller mounted down on the horizontal beam that the hitch is welded to. Mine will run on a lower fan speed until around 180F coolant temp at which point it revs up to 100% (at least it seems to be) and stays there. I don't think I've ever heard them turn back to low speed, even when it is cold out.

I really don't get bad fuel economy even though the fans are at 100%. 8-8.5mpg. Which is excellent when you consider we are 42', always run with 200 gallons of water and fuel and have a 6000 pound toad.

This too was how my coach was originally configured. Mine was failed in the 100% fan on position. If you are seeing a change in fan percentage yours is still operational, easy check is to go to a hi idle and disconnect the control plug on the controller and your solenoid valve will close and fan speed will go to 100%. If it's is already at 100% it is failed or overheating.
Scott

Re: Hydraulic fan controller DIY

Reply #43 – June 11, 2021, 11:15:56 pm

So after last weeks trip from Boulder City Nevada to Ann Arbor Michigan and back got to beta test the entire cooling system control modification of to the wax controller.
I had added a thermostatically controlled sensor for the IAT inlet air temp and a 100% off control solenoid for use with retarder use, brakes, and manual over ride. We drove I70 and made real good time and the 9 mpg to show for it. I70 west of Denver is quite exciting to say the least. I found that I really liked being able to override fans when ever I wanted. Most down hill grades were made in 4-5 gear and level one on the joy stick. I found that this would keep retarder temperature below 233 and minimal brake use. Never saw the IAT temps above 110 or activated other than when manually in override. Was able to command fans to 100% before shutdown at night. Would run for about 20 minutes prior. Bedroom temperature this trip was much better than before with fan override, resonator installation, and a actual bed rather than a air mattress. I saw a decrease in fuel economy but was pushing a little harder than prior. 9 mpg. So although not accurate I swear the instant fuel economy would actually improve .2-.3 mpg with fans engaged? Probably just coincidence and no way to actually prove but will watch some more next trip. All in all I'm quite satisfied and glad I did the mods.
Scott

Re: Hydraulic fan controller DIY

Reply #44 – June 12, 2021, 12:31:48 am

Thanks Scott for being the Guinee pig. I have all the parts you acquired for me and will follow your setup when my controller fails or I have some time on my hands.

Re: Hydraulic fan controller DIY

Reply #45 – August 16, 2021, 12:09:47 pm

Follow up trip this week. Took baby daughter to last year of college. She flew up a couple days ago and week trailered her car up to her. Boulder City to Reno up 95. Ran good no issues. With the additional shutoff valve installed to command hi speed and dual control I'm able to put into auto mode and it manages itself well. Any braking or retarder use and radiator fans on hi. Or manually put on hi if desired. After dropping kid off we headed to Ely for a change of sights from Carson city across 50. Was real impressed how well thing worked going out of Austin Nv is quite a downhill curvy road. Third gear 1700 rpm level one retarder. First time I've ever seen retarder temperature actually drop during use to 195 degrees. In forth gear or higher I alway am running in the 220s retarder temperature. One flat level ground I also turned the fan control between auto and on and noted the temperature difference. 197 is my normal radiator temperature in auto but with fans on I saw it drop to 171 on one run. IAT was generally 105-115 and fans on or off didn't seem to make a difference? It was blazing hot outside at 108 at times. Was really nice how operating prior to shutting down for twenty miles dropped the bedroom temperature. When we stopped in Ely for the night is was bearable to sleep in. I really like having manual control over the radiator cooling fans for cool down prior to shutdown. This was similar to prior operation with failed on fan controller. Home run for me. IAT override is set to 150 degrees and I've never seen it trip the controller. Only other additional mode I'm thinking of is a time delay switch to keep fans actuated for a additional 30 seconds once activated. That would help to clip that hi temperature peak after retarder release automatically
Really enjoyed 50 between Carson and Ely. Is a work out climbing and descending. 👍👍
Scott

Re: Hydraulic fan controller DIY

Reply #46 – August 16, 2021, 12:32:01 pm

Scott,

Next time, stop at Spencer Hot Springs, just a few miles east of Austin. Good to overnight and soak with super views. That is one of our favorite highways. Check the views: Spencer Hot Springs in Nevada | Soak in Austin Hot Springs

Easy access for any car or RV: Google Maps Two or three pools.

Pierce

Re: Hydraulic fan controller DIY

Reply #47 – August 23, 2021, 06:20:29 pm

You guys are having way too much fun.

Remember KISS.

Re: Hydraulic fan controller DIY

Reply #48 – August 24, 2021, 09:44:54 am

Quote from: tmehrkam – August 23, 2021, 06:20:29 pm

You guys are having way too much fun.

Remember KISS.

Absolutely agree, but really like the fact that now my fans ramp up for retarder use, and any braking action automatically. Also being able to manually turn to high for max cooling and deleting all the extra heat before shutdown makes immediate use of the bedroom tolerable. So reverting back to the wax valve (KISS) and having a override system works well for me.
Scott
IAT protection is a nice feature, however haven't seen it activated yet in use

Re: Hydraulic fan controller DIY

Reply #49 – August 24, 2021, 01:49:50 pm

KISS is just having a switch, one position is low, the other is high. That is what I did using existing wire from engine to dash. Lift the ground wire from the hi/low speed solenoid, connect to wire going to one side of dash switch. The other side of switch is grounded. Now hi/low when you want it.

I just need help on why my fans are running slow on hi and low by about 600rpm. I have new pump, fan motors, star controller, hi/low solenoid value. That is all the parts.

Pat,

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