Bulkhead solution?

Topic: Bulkhead solution? (Read 1968 times) previous topic - next topic

Bulkhead solution?

March 18, 2021, 08:12:40 am

Just got to throw this up in the air for discussion.
Three things got me dreaming about this during the night:
Kennyb's leak.
Brett Wolfe's comment re bulkhead condition.
My surprise that a 1988 GV might have undercarriage protection and/or bulkhead issues.
So, here goes.
In 45 years of design of metal working machines, fixtures, tooling, and gauges there were certain rules I tried to follow. One of which was that if I couldn't design a fixture to keep chips out then I would design the fixture so the chips could get out.
Now here is my question. Why, if moisture couldn't be kept out of the bulkhead frame, wasn't something done to get it out?
Apparently, from what pictures I have seen, moisture is/was causing the rust and rot.
WHAT IF? 1/4" stainless steel washers, knurled on both sides, were inserted between the angle iron and the fiberglass bulkheads with the huck bolts thru the washers. Coat the washers with grease. The pointed surfaces on the washers would hold location and the grease. The 1/4" gap would let air circulate thru the join.
Think about it. These coaches spend most of their time just sitting in nice, warm, dry places. But if they were driven thru rain or snow and moisture or condensation got into the joins what makes you think the moisture will come out? Unless. UNLESS it were possible to have some type of warm air induction that forced the air throughout the underside cavity enough to cause the moisture to evaporate. A furnace? Just a ducted fan if in a warm climate? Wouldn't have to be on ALL the time.
To me, it is one thing to get water in where it does not belong, but it is something else to leave it there to do damage.

Re: Bulkhead solution?

Reply #1 – March 18, 2021, 08:24:04 am

For sure having a completely enclosed belly on a coach is both good and bad.

I think the FOT designers did a fairly good job of keeping water encountered when driving (road splash) out of the delicate bits.

Most of the "rust" problems seem to be the result of water entering the enclosed belly skin from above IE uncorrected water leaks in plumbing.

When coaches were brand new they were pretty well sealed at the floor/wall joints, etc. to deal with water leakage in the bays, but after 20-30 years of banging down the road all the caulked joints have opened up.

I don't know if anything (affordable) could have been done to render the original design totally rust proof. Build the whole structure out of stainless steel?

The best defense at this point is eternal vigilance on the part of the owner. Watch for leaks, fix leaks promptly, DO NOT allow errant water to migrate into the belly skin insulation.

Re: Bulkhead solution?

Reply #2 – March 18, 2021, 09:53:32 am

They could have primed and painted it, could have hot dipped galvanized it but it's just a bad design, especially where the big angle iron bolts to the tubing. Don't get me started on the choice of Roloks. Lots of poor choice of fasteners in the coach.

Pierce

Re: Bulkhead solution?

Reply #3 – March 18, 2021, 10:08:16 am

If for any reason you have to take your wet bay completely apart and remove the tanks consider a drain pan under the tanks and plumbing to catch and drain out any overflow or leaks that might occur. A big molded heavy plastic one would be nice but after the fact maybe a formed and welded aluminum one. If I have to pull tanks it is what I would do.

Short of that I have shallow aluminum sheet pans (for cakes) under the waste valves now.

Re: Bulkhead solution?

Reply #4 – March 18, 2021, 12:36:42 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – March 18, 2021, 09:53:32 am

They could have primed and painted it, could have hot dipped galvanized it but it's just a bad design

Pierce

Bingo!!! Even before I owned an RV. I was aware of the saying that water was enemy #1 of an RV. So in my honest opinion. A coach in the price bracket of a Foretravel. EVERY effort should have been taken to mitigate water intrusion and if water did get in, It should have a way out as well. Such a shame that Foretravel couldn't see the forest for all those trees and choose to not spend a couple of hundred dollars per coach to install catchment pans that drain outside and a can or two of paint to cover the bulkhead tubing.

Re: Bulkhead solution?

Reply #5 – March 18, 2021, 01:45:51 pm

I am by no means an expert. But having rebuilt my basement floor and rear bulkhead . The majority of water intrusion is from the fresh water tank fill overflow. It discharges at the top of the rear bulkhead just in front of the rear tire. It then runs down onto the rear bulkhead angle iron and leaches in between the angle iron and rear basement floor framing. Fill your tanks water runs out. Every left curve with full tank water runs out and down. Over a number of years you have frame rot and seperation.
If you do repairs or not put some kind of extension to get overflow drain below or behind the basement floor. This is just my opinion and I am no expert.

Re: Bulkhead solution?

Reply #6 – March 18, 2021, 03:22:41 pm

Quote

put some kind of extension to get overflow drain below or behind the basement floor.

A lot of us redirect it right through the floor next to the water manifold. That's how I did mine. I fill the water until it just starts to run out. Get quite a bit more in that tank than the conservative approach.
jor

Re: Bulkhead solution?

Reply #7 – March 18, 2021, 03:32:34 pm

What might have been done differently or better 20 years ago is not relevant today. No amount of ~~whining~~ complaining or speculation changes the facts. And it is not all coaches that have a problem but some have significant problems. The only things relevant right now is what can you do to prevent any further damage, what do you do to inspect for damage and what do you do to fix it if there is a problem. Unless you have a time machine, move on.

The only reason any of us see this problem is that our FTs have lasted 20+ years. Not a lot of 20+ year old Winnebagos to compare them to other then the ones in the junk yards.

A couple days later ....
So maybe "whining" isn't the best choice of words but that is just what it is. If you think it applies to you perhaps it does. It is done, nothing is going to change it, deal with it in whatever way make sense to you. If nothing makes sense then maybe it is time to not be a FT owner.

Re: Bulkhead solution?

Reply #8 – March 18, 2021, 09:55:02 pm

Quote from: Roger & Susan in Home2 – March 18, 2021, 03:32:34 pm

What might have been done differently or better 20 years ago is not relevant today. No amount of whining changes the facts.....
The only things relevant right now is what can you do to prevent any further damage, what do you do to inspect for damage and what do you do to fix it if there is a problem. Unless you have a time machine, move on.......
The only reason any of us see this problem is that our FTs have lasted 20+ years.

Roger, as always, brings up some great truths. I get the grief of those who have experienced this failure. I have seen so many failures of other brands, non are exempt, and thus I have never posted about my not being surprised before.

Country Coach wanted to build a perfect rv certified for full time use by the state of California. And so they, paid to have, and turned over a new CC Magna for certification. In the recommended changes, one was to use certified welders on the chassis. This was in their research and experience impossible to do, and stay competitive in the market place. I was told by a VP this was the only reccomendation they could not do. They were happy to implement most of the other recommendations, and did.

I bought my coach assuming I'd have to rebuild the structure below. I did not, not to say in the future I may have to. It is not a worry for me.

And so my solution is this: I will continue to inspect the basement area, and continue to maintain that area as well as others.

As many others on this forum have seen, other brands are often so destroyed that we would describe them as throw away units. In other words if you paid anything for the rv or got it free, you were in it too many dollars.

Our basement issue is far from that, in fact several forum members have successfully tackled repairing this issue themselves. I post the following links to not pick on any one brand, however to show one of many issues that are common in other brands. Even in stick and brick homes, water intrusion where it was not wanted, can become a huge issue.

If you disagree with my post you might try to Google "rusting basement bay rv" and that will posibly make you more pleased you invested in a FT, instead of some other brand.

American Eagle
American Coach Basement Rust Repair - iRV2 Forums

Tiffin
Wet Bay | Travel Blog

Travel Supreme
Rotted floor under water holding tank - iRV2 Forums

Winnebago
Rust on compartment bays | The RV Forum Community

Thor
Basement floor rotting - iRV2 Forums

Thor
Venetian Basement - Thor Forums

Re: Bulkhead solution?

Reply #9 – March 18, 2021, 11:38:33 pm

I think that whining and a statement of fact have been confused as being one in the same.

The facts are that all RV manufacturers are guilty to some degree (some more guilty than others) of having little to zero foresight concerning water intrusion in such a vital area as a monocoque frame that keeps it from breaking in half.
And while it is bad that SoB of RV has some water damage. They tend to have subflooring damage from water (not a rotted frame) With a subfloor one can at least get to it with a body on frame design. Not so much with a hidden and unprotected monocoque/ bulkhead design encased in water absorbing foam.

Truth be told. I think that most higher end older coaches that are around 20 years later. Are here because of the sizable budgets of their owners who could afford them when new and so the maintenance and needed repairs were more likely to have been done when needed.

Re: Bulkhead solution?

Reply #10 – March 19, 2021, 12:42:36 am

Golly gee. Here I was suggesting that it might be better to be proactive when it comes to minimizing water damage instead of being reactive, knowing that water damage can be expensive compared to doing a little modification that might cost only a couple hundred.
And now I am called a whiner? Just because I was trying to suggest something?
Some of you had better think about what you are advocating. Let your coach go to hell just because it is getting older.
These beautifully built and designed machines!

Re: Bulkhead solution?

Reply #11 – March 19, 2021, 01:43:52 am

Quote from: bigdog – March 18, 2021, 11:38:33 pm

I think that whining and a statement of fact have been confused as being one in the same.......Truth be told. I think that most higher end older coaches that are around 20 years later. Are here because of the sizable budgets of their owners who could afford them when new and so the maintenance and needed repairs were more likely to have been done when needed.

Bigdog, what you say is so true. Just think what our FTs cost new, what the new owner spent on maintenence and upgrades, and what that would have bought in the way of sticks and bricks and dirt in the same years.

I bought my FT in 2017, the original owner kept it until 2015 when he sold it to buy a new American Eagle with a MSRP of close to $700,000. Before trading the FT, deciding he would keep it forever, he took it to Extreme for paint and the factory at FT, writing checks for over $50,000 for full body paint, updating the headlights, and upgrading the interior. When I finally reached him by phone in 2018, the first thing I did was thank him for taking care of my rv for 17 years. He laughed.

Re: Bulkhead solution?

Reply #12 – March 19, 2021, 06:15:16 am

Jack Lewis:
I think you worked at Monaco ?
Was curious, lower structure of my 97 Dynasty appears to be quite close to the FT design, 8 airbags, but the frame work is only enclosed at the wet bay area. Lower frame is otherwise totally exposed and appears to be undercoated. FW overflow goes directly under the wet bay. Have never read of any bulkhead type issue on the Monaco Roadmaster Chassis. Would you happen to know what the differences might be ?

Re: Bulkhead solution?

Reply #13 – March 19, 2021, 11:00:38 am

Quote from: nitehawk – March 19, 2021, 12:42:36 am

Golly gee. Here I was suggesting that it might be better to be proactive when it comes to minimizing water damage instead of being reactive, knowing that water damage can be expensive compared to doing a little modification that might cost only a couple hundred.
And now I am called a whiner? Just because I was trying to suggest something?
Some of you had better think about what you are advocating. Let your coach go to hell just because it is getting older.
These beautifully built and designed machines!

Nothing wrong about being proactive and bringing the subject up. Foretravels are bought and sold all the time and keeping the bulkhead topic active with possible ideas is a good way of letting prospective buyers and new forum members know about the issue and how to best minimize or eliminate the damage. Every time I think about the bulkhead design and the crazy hydraulic fan system, I "whine" or worse.

Pierce

Re: Bulkhead solution?

Reply #14 – March 19, 2021, 12:07:07 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – March 19, 2021, 11:00:38 am

Every time I think about the bulkhead design and the crazy hydraulic fan system, I "whine" or worse.

Pierce

Pierce,

Is that "whine" or "WINE"?

Re: Bulkhead solution?

Reply #15 – March 19, 2021, 01:02:00 pm

Every time I hear someone on The forum act like a grumpy old man I just have to laugh. Truth is is it's a problem and when it happens to you we get pissed off rightly so. My coach had a basement problem so bad that the previous owner took it to an idiot and nacogdoches who had really no experience in rebuilding basements and charged the insurance company greater than $30,000 to repair it and did a crappy job of it. Just like when they replaced the fuel lines. A crappy job of it. Truth is that anytime there is going to be rust affecting the bulkhead of anything on the road that's made out of steel. And I believe that it's correct that leakage from the inside it's more likely to be the cause than what's coming out of the overflow drain. I too re located my drain from the back bulkhead to the basement under the manifold block. But I still have a slow leak drip from an older PEX fitting that I have to replace. Best thing to do is don't overfill your tank and keep an eye on any trips and leaks. also whenever possible I open both sides of my wet bay doors and let the air flow through there. I hope I never have to redo the poor job that was done on this coach to repair the basement. Yeah in hindsight it could have been done differently but it wasn't so we just have to deal with what we have. I love my foretravel coach. But there's plenty of issues with it as we all know.
But I really don't think that it helps to call out someone who is upset about an issue a quote unquote whiner. Doesn't help at all.

Re: Bulkhead solution?

Reply #16 – March 19, 2021, 02:18:54 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – March 19, 2021, 12:07:07 pm

Pierce,
Is that "whine" or "WINE"?

That reminds me of an Italian restaurant in Germany when w...................................................

Pierce

Re: Bulkhead solution?

Reply #17 – March 19, 2021, 05:54:09 pm

We're heading to MOT this summer for bulkhead repairs. We would have done them last summer, but our plans got turned upside down Yes, it is going to cost us several CBs. No, we're not going to get all of it back when we sell, and probably none of it if we trade. That's life.

Re: Bulkhead solution?

Reply #18 – April 22, 2021, 09:05:24 pm

Back to an earlier discussion: are there current sources for the Roloks? I plan to use through-bolts for front and rear bulkheads on my U225, but I have a little rust on some of the Roloks holding the bottom floor up to the bay wall bulkheads. I don't want any rust on those bolts and I don't think through-bolts would be practical there.

Re: Bulkhead solution?

Reply #19 – April 23, 2021, 09:38:32 am

I googled Rolox bolts, came up with Semblex Corp. I didn't go further. Hope it helps.

Re: Bulkhead solution?

Reply #20 – April 23, 2021, 09:52:40 am

Quote from: Doyle3131 – April 22, 2021, 09:05:24 pm

Back to an earlier discussion: are there current sources for the Roloks? I plan to use through-bolts for front and rear bulkheads on my U225, but I have a little rust on some of the Roloks holding the bottom floor up to the bay wall bulkheads. I don't want any rust on those bolts and I don't think through-bolts would be practical there.

I got mine from MOT when I rebuilt my basement. They had plenty in stock. Foretravel had none.
I

Re: Bulkhead solution?

Reply #21 – April 23, 2021, 10:05:29 am

Use galvanized or stainless. Roloks were never intended for this application.

Pierce

Re: Bulkhead solution?

Reply #22 – April 23, 2021, 10:45:52 am

Actually for those vertical bulkheads, I don't have a problem with the Rolocks IF (yes big IF) you use a sealant around the serrated head so water can't migrate in.

But, I agree with Pierce, if you can find SS or galvanized bolts with the same thread pattern as the Rolocks you are removing, an excellent choice.

And, if there is any FG damage around the Rolocks on those vertical bulkheads, use fender washers to span the damaged area and caulk well.

Sure worth pulling out one of the Rolocks you are going to replace and take a quick trip to a good hardware store.

Re: Bulkhead solution?

Reply #23 – April 23, 2021, 11:31:07 am

The difficult situation with the divider walls and those Roloks is if you are going to use bolts. You are going yo have to open up those sidewalls to do it. Thst could entail removing water tanks etc to access. As have ssid in other posts relocated the fresh water tank overflow so it does not run down the rear bulkhead. That is what caused the corrosion in the first place as far as Im concerned.

Re: Bulkhead solution?

Reply #24 – April 23, 2021, 11:42:22 am

While much discussion has taken place about the fresh water over fill, and I agree that is not the best place for it. It's not the sole cause of the bulk head issues. What about rain road salt, door leaking. Just my opinion.

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