Foretravel Owner's Forum For owners and Fans of Foretravel Motorcoaches April 23, 2024 ...

Another lithium upgrade.

March 19, 2021, 04:43:24 pm

Pulled the trigger and bought three 200AH lithium batteries at $849.00 each on Amazon. They will last longer than my use of the coach I am sure.

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Re: Another lithium upgrade.

Reply #1 – March 19, 2021, 05:05:08 pm

Are you making any other, related, changes?
Inverter, battery isolator, monitor?Other?
Or just replace existing batteries.
Original Magnum remote control?
Why this brand and not Battle Born?

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Reply #2 – March 19, 2021, 05:15:12 pm

Already have solar and 2 controllers, Victon BVM have Victron B2B ordered and a Victron battery  temperature controller to protect low temp. My Xantrex SW3012 is good to go with this setup. As far as Battle Born's these are less than 1/2 the price and with a 5 year warranty if they fail after that a second set would still be less than the Battle Born's. I wasn't going to go lithium at their price, but these have been tested by Will Prowse and the only fault he could find was the low temp cutoff. Since then he tested the Victron temp. controller on these batteries and gave a thumbs up for them.
B2B just showed up It will eliminate the isolator.

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Re: Another lithium upgrade.

Reply #3 – March 19, 2021, 06:00:59 pm

That's a good price at $4.25 per Ah.    My Lion Energy batts were $6.60 per Ah.
 
 But things in the battery world move fast these days.  Next year those will be obsolete.

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Reply #4 – March 20, 2021, 09:37:44 am

Do you have Amazon link?

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Reply #5 – March 20, 2021, 10:09:27 am

Quote from: turbojack – March 20, 2021, 09:37:44 am

Do you have Amazon link?

Amazon.com: 12V 200Ah Lithium Iron LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Battery, Built-in 100A...

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Re: Another lithium upgrade.

Reply #6 – March 20, 2021, 10:09:31 am

Amazon.com: 12V 200Ah Lithium Iron LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Battery, Built-in 100A...

Whoops, Chuck, you beat me to it.  Please give us a follow up on these, as I am very interested.  Great price on these 8D's!  I have watched some of Will's YouTube videos and missed this one.  Will do a search and check it out as well.  Thanks for sharing!

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Re: Another lithium upgrade.

Reply #7 – March 20, 2021, 10:31:10 am

These look to be good batteries but as Chuck pointed out their BMS has no low temperature charge protection.  What this means is that if the battery temperature is below the low temp cutoff (usually about 26-32°F) the batteries should not be charged. It will damage the battery. You can be discharging the battery at these temperatures.  If you are in your FT and the batteries are in the battery bay and you are using the batteries the battery temperature will be well above outside temps.

Monitor the battery temperature at the posts where most temperature sensors go and in the bay.

If the battery temperature gets to the low temp limit, add heat to the bay, turn on battery heaters and stop charging until the battery temps go up.

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Re: Another lithium upgrade.

Reply #8 – March 20, 2021, 10:44:35 am

Another consideration is the warranty.  Are there warranty providers that have stock in the USA? 
Of course you pay more for Battleborns or Relion or others for their longer warranties, are established, and have USA stock.
Pay what you want and take what chances you want.  Those are a great price!
That being said years ago I bought a 1000 amphour LiFePO4 system from Balqon, they're now gone so no support.  I sold the system to a friend who is still using them successfully.  Lot of better info about LiFePO4's out there now.

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Reply #9 – March 20, 2021, 11:00:59 am

As they say. 5 year warranty is only as good as the company that stands behind it

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Reply #10 – March 20, 2021, 11:05:14 am

You can build your own LiFePO4 batteries with good BMS systems for about $250 per 100 ah.  But as Will Prowse points out these are probably better suited for stationary installations like a solar battery bank. In the right containers and secures well they can work in a mobile situation.  And right now all of the components are in very high demand and very short supply.  Sometimes months to get. 

Whatever you get you should charge them up and load test them to confirm that each battery meets it specification, is not send it back. 

Changing to LiFePO4 battery technology makes a huge difference in how your coach will work. But it is more than just swapping out batteries.  Learn as much as you can and ask a lot of questions. 

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Reply #11 – March 20, 2021, 11:08:21 am

Here is the video that got my attention. And there is another video showing how the temp sensor takes care of the problem.
and the second video is the device to correct the low temp problem
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQUhjDkQY5Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpO4s6Lrrmc

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Reply #12 – March 20, 2021, 03:31:00 pm

"B2B just showed up It will eliminate the isolator."

Craneman,

Could you share how you will wire in the B2B to replace the isolator?

Not far behind you but my lithium are on a slow boat from China.

Hope you and the DW are doing well and staying safe!

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Re: Another lithium upgrade.

Reply #13 – March 20, 2021, 03:58:29 pm

Roger sent me a drawing and I don't know how to put it here. Basically , you remove the isolator and mount 2 lugs and the B2B in its place the house side of the isolator wire will go to the B2B output and the alternator wire will mount on one of the lugs along with the start battery and B2B input. Maybe Roger will chime in and explain it.

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Re: Another lithium upgrade.

Reply #14 – March 20, 2021, 05:15:40 pm

The common isolators split power between the start batteries and the house batteries and keeps them separated using big diodes, elevated voltage to cover the losses through the diodes and heat sinks to get rid of the heat that creates. The diodes can fail with significant consequences.

The B2B chargers connect between  the alternator and the start batteries and the house batteries.  The B2B takes power from the alternator/start battery up to its rated capacity and charges the house batteries using a multi-step charge profile for the type of batteries you have.  They will work with any kind of battery. 

With the Victron Orions you can connect more than one in parallel to get more charge capacity.  These are  bluetooth cpable and can be configured and monitored from your phone.  These sense when the engine is running to start operating. The non-isolated version uses a common ground between the battery sets which is how our FTs are wired up.  The boost solenoid remains in place with the positive to the house batteries on one side and the positive to the start batteries on the other.

Sterling makes a B2B as well in a 60 amp size.  Works the same way but it doesn't use bluetooth.

This approach is a very common "charge while driving" solution.  If you have solar this is plenty. More often than not mine is not on while driving.

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Reply #15 – March 20, 2021, 09:39:16 pm

Here is how my two Victron Orions are setup to charge the house batteries from the alternator. This is exactly how it looks if you standing at the back of the rig, with the engine bay open, looking over the engine at the far back wall.

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Re: Another lithium upgrade.

Reply #16 – March 20, 2021, 11:32:28 pm

If that is a diode based isolator all it is doing wired this way is losing voltage through the diodes and creating heat and risk. If the diodes fail that causes all sorts of other problems.  Simplify and reduce risks.

I suggest you remove the isolator, add 2 posts. Alt, start side of the boost solenoid and inputs to the orions go to one post,. Then from the start side of the boost solenoid to the start batteries.

Output from the orions go to the second post and then to the house side of the boost solenoid and then to the house batteries.  If it is a LN alterntor with an adjustable voltage turn the voltage down to get to 13.8 - 14 v at the start battery.

Elliot's sketch shows two grounds from each Orion.  Is so, then they are the isolated version of the Orion for use when the start battery and the house battery do not have a common ground. I don't think it is a problem to connect them this way but you might want to confirm that. The non-isolated Orion is designed for a coach where house and start batteries have a common ground.

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