Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Topic: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading (Read 10493 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #225 – July 23, 2021, 04:44:56 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – July 23, 2021, 02:23:08 pm

Yes and yes. Assuming it was done on a jig, it probably is centered but never hurts to check it along with the distance from the edge of the rear mounting plate to the edge of the front mounting plate. Tough to do with the tire in place.

Pierce

Assuming it was done on a jig. I didn't get to this fine old age by making assumptions.

That being said, you people have never run the same motorcycle for decades. Once the OE tires are no longer available, tires become an interesting consumable to source. I had to slot the front fender mounts for clearance and the rear has to be installed uninflated.

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #226 – July 23, 2021, 06:25:29 pm

Quote from: Old Toolmaker – July 23, 2021, 04:44:56 pm

Assuming it was done on a jig. I didn't get to this fine old age by making assumptions.
That being said, you people have never run the same motorcycle for decades. Once the OE tires are no longer available, tires become an interesting consumable to source. I had to slot the front fender mounts for clearance and the rear has to be installed uninflated.

Avon calling?

P

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #227 – July 24, 2021, 08:27:03 am

After looking at the tires size comparison chart on reply 219 the 295/80 R22.5 is a bigger tire it is wider and just a hair bigger in diameter with the pressure on the tire under the circumstances of the landscape putting all the load on the one tire with the other tire off the ground it expanded the tire even bigger which it came in contact with the bottom airbag plate that's what caused the problem with Elliott coach . Lift your coach of the ground then drop it back on the ground look how the tire explains under the load the coach is design to use 275/80R 22.5 yes you can use 295/75R22.5 but the bottom plate should be modified to have the clearance while turning so the same situation would not happen again The coach was inspected and checked from a Truck alignment shop and everything is in spec and align. I am not disputing that you can or can't use 295/80 R 22.5 and have no problem if someone is interested in them on there Coach I'm just saying that Elliott mishap was because of the over size tires and on the turn and with the load on the tires in the situation the coach was in the tire didn't have the clearance Maybe it is Foretravel fault for there design on this subject we were trying to find the cause of the accident not what we can get away buy using something else's the subject is what Cause the mishap and I would very much like to know anyone of us maybe in the same situation trying to get into a campground again nothing was bent or worn out or out of specs the coach never had this problem new and in 20 years. he was not speeding the tire didn't have the clearance to turn I would like to have Two coach's side by side and Measure the distance between the tire and bottom plate with the two different tires. This to me is the only thing that sticks out that's different and was change and can be corrected bye mortifying the bottom plate Which I can't see to be a problem

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #228 – July 24, 2021, 10:02:37 am

But many of us have been running the 295 for many years without a problem. We take our U300 through the same kind of terrain all the time without mishap. Agree, modifying the bottom plate can't hurt anything.

With a mishap that severe, I can't believe that either size tire would have made a difference.

Designing the suspension without giving taking into account the clearance for different steering angles is just poor engineering in my opinion. In no circumstance, should the tire come within an inch of the tire under any steering angle combined with body angle or flex/twist.

My Buffalo bus had airbags and they never came close. They were in a different location but it was known as the sports car of buses so not a bad location.

Pierce

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #229 – July 24, 2021, 11:32:32 am

There not too many time I travel with one tire off the ground putting all the pressure on all the other tires where talk about turning on uneven ground one tire completely of the ground in the lifetime of a coach , how many times do you drive like this and under this Circumstances I think with that much pressure and over size tire there was no clearance. You are not just driving on 4 tires completely on the ground at all time If you went to Foretravel with a brand new coach and told them you were out off-roading with one tire completely off the ground and not the right size tires on it and you were looking for a warranty they would probably tell you are not covered
I would bet that every coach Foretravel tested the wheels where on the ground at all times you can roll a ball with your foot it rolls but walk on it with all that pressure on it . It's not going to roll there was 32000 lbs and more on 3 tires not four tires the coach and tires were not built to have that kind of load the tires did not blow but with that kind of pressure there was no clearance and the over size tires didn't help I drove tractor trailer all my life and there are some spots I delivered I refuse to go into . The truck wasn't made to go there .you can take a full size pickup truck put over size tire on it and go off-road but you wouldn't take a z3 BMW convertible put over size tires and go off-road we drive a high end coach and know one would think that people would take a $300,000 to $400,000 coach for a drive across a field BUT WE ALL DO and I'm one of them many times I've done it the problem here is the turning clearance and uneven ground and one wheel completely off the ground. not just going straight up and down the interstate on over size tires
This is just my opinion all I'm trying to do is put common sense with what information that has been presented on this subject . I understand people have been driving with over size tires but how many have been in this exact situation. Look at the details and circumstances I can add 15000 lbs of Weight more than the the coach is made to handle it will go up and down the road and probably handle it but eventually something is going to break or nothing will brake and I can say i did it and drove many of miles Like I said before yes you can drive with over size tires but the bottom plate should be fabricated so this problem will never occur and probably should be fabricated also with our original tire size just trying to solve this problem so that it never happens to anyone else we all learn from someone else's experience

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #230 – July 31, 2021, 01:07:19 pm

I got to see the coach yesterday and am pretty happy. You can darn near fit a tennis ball between the tire and plate now (pic attached). Apparently it just needed an alignment.

I decided to NOT have the plate replaced. Part of the reason for that decision was I didn't want them trying to put a new plate in exactly the same spot and risk being out of alignment with the upper mount. They were willing to explore the possibility of getting a new subframe (which they'd done with another unicoach) but I felt like that was opening the door to different problems for something that is ultimately benign.

The rest of the work they did looks great and it's mostly ready to go home now. The bags I ordered for the front should arrive at the shop sometime next week and they're going to put all four in for $700. After shipping I paid about $600 for the bags. So, four new bags installed up front for $1300. Insurance should reimburse me for one. While they're doing that job, they're going to have a welder build up the lip of the plate that was cut down, mostly for cosmetics.

All in all, it's been a long wait but I'm happy with the work that I can see so far. With a bit of luck I'll get to pick it up the week after next

Also, lights had been left on inside and the [residential] fridge running for this whole time and when I checked the app I still had 12 days of juice left in the new house batteries Gillis put in

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #231 – July 31, 2021, 01:11:15 pm

A "regular" alignment (check camber, check/adjust caster and set toe) will NOT affect tire to bag/bag mount clearance unless you make major adjustments to caster.

Ride height and "locator" links and their bushings will.

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #232 – July 31, 2021, 02:05:55 pm

Are you sure the coach was not plugged in,you said the lights and frige were on for all these weeks and batteries are still good???

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #233 – July 31, 2021, 04:50:34 pm

Quote from: John44 – July 31, 2021, 02:05:55 pm

Are you sure the coach was not plugged in,you said the lights and frige were on for all these weeks and batteries are still good???

Yup. The solar kept everything topped off. I haven't shared my setup yet but a month or so before the Incident I put a small fortune into solar, lithium, inverter, etc...

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #234 – July 31, 2021, 08:25:14 pm

Quote from: Elliott – July 31, 2021, 04:50:34 pm

Yup. The solar kept everything topped off. I haven't shared my setup yet but a month or so before the Incident I put a small fortune into solar, lithium, inverter, etc...

New way to make a small fortune, give a large fortune to Elliott.

Congratulations on your success, Elliot et Cie. May you and yours have many miles of happy travels.

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #235 – August 01, 2021, 02:41:42 pm

Possibly these photos may shed some light

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #236 – August 01, 2021, 04:06:25 pm

Trying to figure this out...guess front airbags are pretty much fully extended in Elliot's last photo? How does it look at ride height?

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #237 – August 01, 2021, 04:44:47 pm

Full up
Note tape on tire , fender, and airbag mount. Air bag and tire never change position with each other, just position in fender skin opening.
Scott

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #238 – August 01, 2021, 04:46:30 pm

Ride height

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #239 – August 01, 2021, 04:48:05 pm

Full down

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #240 – August 01, 2021, 06:11:53 pm

Quote from: Chuck Pearson – August 01, 2021, 04:06:25 pm

Trying to figure this out...guess front airbags are pretty much fully extended in Elliot's last photo? How does it look at ride height?

If anything they were at less than ride height when I took that photo. They had pulled the coach to that spot earlier that morning and it had just been sitting there for half a day. I know I have leaky six packs so it had probably leaked down a bit by then.

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #241 – August 02, 2021, 03:08:33 pm

Scott very informative photos, thank you. I hope you don't mind, I consolidated your pictures for posterity's sake. Maybe it'll save the next guy some debate and perplexity

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #242 – August 02, 2021, 04:48:43 pm

I like the pictures but we are looking at the distance with the wheel in the Straight ahead position but you were turning what would be the distance from the tire to the plate while turning . Because the of the tire width and Weight put on that one tire I think that was the problem by cutting the bottom plate would give it the clearance.

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #243 – August 02, 2021, 09:26:48 pm

Quote from: dsd – August 01, 2021, 04:44:47 pm

Full up
Note tape on tire , fender, and airbag mount. Air bag and tire never change position with each other, just position in fender skin opening.
Scott

Ach. Yes of course. Sure would like to know how they reclaimed this much space through alignment.

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #244 – August 02, 2021, 09:55:28 pm

Quote from: Cape Bretoner – August 02, 2021, 04:48:43 pm

I like the pictures but we are looking at the distance with the wheel in the Straight ahead position but you were turning what would be the distance from the tire to the plate while turning . Because the of the tire width and Weight put on that one tire I think that was the problem by cutting the bottom plate would give it the clearance.

So yes when turning the clearance is reduced. I'm running 295-75R 22.5 Toyo tires. Yes they touch but I've yet to polished the paint off the mounts.
Scott

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #245 – August 02, 2021, 10:16:12 pm

Quote from: Chuck Pearson – August 02, 2021, 09:26:48 pm

Ach. Yes of course. Sure would like to know how they reclaimed this much space through alignment.

Can't imagine that an alignment ( check camber, check/adjust caster, set toe-in) would materially affect wheel clearance. Yes, assuming caster was not taken way out of spec.

"Links" locating front "H" to body, YES. Bushings from same, YES.

Look forward hearing "how" an alignment would affect clearances. Interesting concept.

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #246 – August 02, 2021, 10:38:23 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – August 02, 2021, 10:16:12 pm

Can't imagine
"Links" locating front "H" to body, YES. Bushings from same, YES.
Interesting concept.

So if you remove the entire unsprung assembly below were the bags mount nothing affects the distance from the tire to the bag mount because they are all bolted together as one assembly. With the drag links removed the bushings removed nothing changes. That assembly is centered in the well wells with the drag links and bushing, not the distance to the lower bag mounts. You literally need to unbolt the axle to change the clearance between the wheel and the bag mount. They are mounted rigidly together as a assembly
Scott

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #247 – August 02, 2021, 10:57:43 pm

So, again, I'm at a loss for how I went from not being able to turn the wheel at all to this abundance of clearance but here's another nugget to ponder: apparently my service advisor at the collision shop drove the coach from there to Freightliner. Obviously this was done before any "alignment", so HOW? I know for a fact that when I was stuck I wasn't able to straighten the wheels. It wasn't even close.

Was the suspension so "loaded" when I was on the uneven terrain that it shifted? And by the time we cut the plate, drove to safer ground, and got out of there, it went back to normal?

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #248 – August 02, 2021, 11:05:58 pm

The only item subject to changing anything is the axle end "stationary" king pin and spindle. Nothing else moves that would effect tire to bag clearance. And yes I have no clue how the tire was impacted on the the bag mount. Flexed H structure? Flexed axle? I'm Clueless. If the chassis frame was bent it would only effect the upper bag mount on the frame. If the Bushings or drag links were the problem or displaced then the air bag lower mount would be displaced into the structure, and the tire clearance would still remain the same, even if it was pushed six inches into structure. I genuinely hate unsolvable puzzles.
Scott

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #249 – August 02, 2021, 11:38:20 pm

As Scott said the only thing that could change the distant is the king pin could
something amiss there. I am only speculating as the axel and the lower air bag
supports are welded and bolted together.

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