Raise/lower malfunction

Topic: Raise/lower malfunction (Read 1908 times) previous topic - next topic

Raise/lower malfunction

April 11, 2021, 08:56:22 pm

Raised and blocked the coach today to check out a high pitched air "squealing" noticed on a recent trip. First time I ever heard was from the start of this trip. Only thing I can think of is that I replaced some main check valves on my air tanks just prior to the trip. On the road, it did I every time it cycled back to D2 set pressure. Didn't seem to effect much, mainly just annoying. Could come to anything causing it while under there today. But, that's not the big problem at the moment.
When I got ready to unblock and return to ride height, the front road side bag didn't lift. Dumped and tried again several times to no avail. I'm just guessing off hand it's something with the front six pack? Looks like a real pain to get to. Other diagnostic ideas would be appreciated. I can get a six pack kit sent from MOT in just a couple of days and have experience from rebuilding the back one a year or so ago. Unfortunately, was taking the coach down to MOT tomorrow to get the curb side windshield replaced. I sure don't want to circle back to the end of the appoint line for that. Any suggestions for getting back to ride height without twisting the coach so much it risks breaking the windshields?

Re: Raise/lower malfunction

Reply #1 – April 11, 2021, 09:48:07 pm

I had this happen, it was the travel solenoid, split my windshield too. The magnet went bad on the air valve, so it wouldn't open. Easy to test, while coach is blocked up, have someone turn the ignition on, unplug the solenoid from the harness for that side (they are labeled, It's the top one) and there should be power to the solenoid.

You can also just unplug it, and take the magnet part off (leave the rest in the block) and test with a screw gun batt.

Even though I rebuilt all mine, I carry a spare. You can get them here fast:

Replacement HWH Air Solenoid RAP1940 IN STOCK TODAY: nwrvsupply.com

I wouldn't replace the whole 6 pack $$$

BTW, if you are having trouble with the raise solenoid, same test works. I actually carry a harness I can plug into the HWH harness to solenoid, so it makes it easier to test

Chris

Re: Raise/lower malfunction

Reply #2 – April 11, 2021, 10:27:23 pm

Sounds completely plausible. So don't even fool with the o ring kit? Just plug and play with the magnet? It's a booger to get at. Up just behind the top of the generator box. I do think the top on roadside may be easiest to get at, if the word "easiest" can be applied here. Thanks!

Re: Raise/lower malfunction

Reply #3 – April 11, 2021, 10:30:19 pm

Quote from: Thedude – April 11, 2021, 08:56:22 pm

When I got ready to unblock and return to ride height, the front road side bag didn't lift.

The "travel" solenoids are only active when the coach is in travel mode (green travel light on).

If you are trying to manually raise the coach, and the front driver side corner will not go up, then the problem is with the "raise" solenoid on the front 6-pack. That would be the bottom left solenoid. Either the coil is not getting power, or it is getting power but the coil is bad.

The only way to get the coach raised up to remove your safety blocks is to regain the function of the "raise" solenoid...whatever that takes. Try disconnecting and re-connecting the power harness plug to be sure it is making good contact. You can test the coil by holding a screwdriver next to it while someone pushes the raise button on the HWH panel. If the coil is working, it will attract the metal screwdriver blade.

For more trouble shooting guidance, check out the manual (page 12) I linked in Reply # 6 below (assuming you have the HWH 600 Series leveling system).

Re: Raise/lower malfunction

Reply #4 – April 11, 2021, 10:35:56 pm

Yes, it won't raise. So, bottom left, but part the same. Will try to get under and do the test you suggest in the AM. Thanks but, still not looking forward to getting at it. Lol.

Re: Raise/lower malfunction

Reply #5 – April 11, 2021, 10:38:22 pm

Chuck is that schematic the same for my six packs? I assume so but I haven't seen it in any of the owners documentation I got with my coach. Very helpful to see it drawn out like that. Thank you.

Re: Raise/lower malfunction

Reply #6 – April 11, 2021, 10:47:28 pm

Elliott,

The diagram I posted is from the HWH 600 Series Service Manual, which is available in our Forum library. If you have the 600 Series leveling system on your coach, then the diagram should be accurate. If you have a different leveling system, there may also be a manual in the library for your system.

https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=media;sa=item;in=1457#viewitem

Re: Raise/lower malfunction

Reply #7 – April 11, 2021, 11:22:54 pm

Not the same, Elliot. Here's yours.

Quote from: Elliott – April 11, 2021, 10:38:22 pm

Chuck is that schematic the same for my six packs? I assume so but I haven't seen it in any of the owners documentation I got with my coach. Very helpful to see it drawn out like that. Thank you.

Re: Raise/lower malfunction

Reply #8 – April 12, 2021, 09:18:04 am

Steve,

I hesitate to post this idea, but because you are trying to make the service appointment at FOT I will bring it up.

IF you find the coil on the left front "raise" solenoid is getting power but is not actuating the valve, this normally indicates a bad coil (coil has failed internally). A new coil is the only solution.

In a emergency, you could remove a (presumably) good coil from one of the "travel" solenoid valves and use it to replace the bad coil on the "raise" solenoid. This will put the "raise" solenoid back in service and allow you to remove your safety stands. Of course, you now have a disabled "travel" solenoid.

Fortunately, there is a well known method to allow driving a coach with a bad "travel" solenoid. You can manually level the coach at normal ride height using the the "raise" and "lower" buttons on the HWH touch panel, and then pull the "travel" fuse in the HWH control box (CPU). With the "travel" circuit disabled (fuse pulled) the coach will remain at whatever height you set while you drive it. You must be careful to monitor the ride height as you drive to be sure it stays at a safe setting (I.E. stop and check it visually). But this emergency procedure will at least get you on the road to the repair shop.

It's up to you if you want to try this or not. See link below for more info:

https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=media;sa=item;in=3492#viewitem

Re: Raise/lower malfunction

Reply #9 – April 12, 2021, 01:47:50 pm

Steve,
Please confirm that neither the travel mode or the level mode will raise the left front airbags?
Two different electrical circuits and two different air sources to operate the two different systems.

Re: Raise/lower malfunction

Reply #10 – April 12, 2021, 03:22:44 pm

John,

At last report, Steve was unable to fully raise the coach so he could remove his safety stands. In his current predicament, travel mode would try to lower the coach.

BUT, now that you mention it, it would perhaps be possible to trick the front height control valve into raising the front end. If the linkage was disconnected from the height control valve, then the control valve lever could be rotated to the "add air" position, and it would inflate all 4 front air bags. After the safety stands are removed, get safely out from under the coach and use a long stick to manually move the height control valve lever to the "exhaust air" position. The coach will drop down. Stop it at close to ride height, put the lever in the neutral (horizontal) position, and reconnect the linkage. The travel mode should keep the coach at ride height while driving even if the left front "raise" solenoid is not working.

John - that is a BRILLIANT IDEA! I only hope Steve checks in to read this.

Re: Raise/lower malfunction

Reply #11 – April 12, 2021, 04:09:45 pm

Ok if it's only a left raise valve problem,
It makes me wonder if the air tank check valve work cause a little debris to migrate into the check valve in the left side of the front HWH manifold and possibly jamming the check valve not allowing it to fully open and reducing airflow to the raise solenoid and causing the whistle? Would be easy to remove and check while the stands are under there. Just something else to consider.

Re: Raise/lower malfunction

Reply #12 – April 12, 2021, 06:24:05 pm

Sorry, been running around trying get the solenoid. Successfully, I might add. Thanks for the suggestion about swapping the travel solenoid Chuck. Already rescheduled for next week. He may still have an opening due to a cancellation this Thursday that I'm going to try and switch to after I'm sure this fix works when I install in the morning. Grandson's baseball game tonight supersedes it right now. Thank for all the help so far. Well update tomorrow.

Re: Raise/lower malfunction

Reply #13 – April 13, 2021, 12:17:44 pm

Fail!!! Replaced the lower left (road side) solenoid without effect. It was labeled "raise". Guess I need to meter the line coming to it just to be sure. Unfortunately, I don't have anyone to activate it while I'm under with the meter til later. All the bags go flat when I OFF the raise function. Guess the system vents them completely in some disparate effort to get to ride height.
The air "whistle" seems have something to do with the 1/2 line between front and back tanks (main feed from the wet tank). Sound is centered in that area and can feel the line resonating in my grip when I let any volume of air out of a tank. Kind makes me skeptical about John's suggestion about a check valve on back of manifold? Seeking other input before exploring the ride height control valve option? Would want someone else here that had a little sense before trying that anyway.

Re: Raise/lower malfunction

Reply #14 – April 13, 2021, 12:56:18 pm

Quote from: Thedude – April 13, 2021, 12:17:44 pm

Fail!!! Replaced the lower left (road side) solenoid without effect.
The air "whistle" seems have something to do with the 1/2 line between front and back tanks (main feed from the wet tank).

Steve,
You need to verify you are actually getting power to the raise solenoid when the button is pushed on the touch panel. This will require a second person to push the button while you see what happens at the 6-pack. Check it either with the screwdriver test, or with a multimeter. Depending on your HWH system, there may be a fuse in the HWH brain box that protects the wire going to that raise solenoid. If the fuse is blown, or wire going to solenoid is bad, then (of course) the new replacement part won't work.

I believe the strange noise you are hearing is being produced by one or both of the new check valves you installed. I get that noise on our coach occasionally, and I have traced it with a stethoscope back to one of my brake tank inlet check valves. It can be irritating, but is not harmful. I believe it is some sort of resonant vibration in the metal disc inside the check valve, caused by the air flow through the valve. If it really gets on your nerves, you could try a different style or brand of check valve.

Re: Raise/lower malfunction

Reply #15 – April 13, 2021, 01:15:00 pm

Thanks. Lack of another body has me DOA for few hours. Seems like the possible fuse you mention would cover at least the whole front level system instead of each line individually. However, I will have a look see. Sure rather a fuse than bad wire.

You theory on the resonance sounds pretty sound. It's there, but I've kinda got it tuned it out most of the time.

Re: Raise/lower malfunction

Reply #16 – April 13, 2021, 01:28:22 pm

Quote from: Thedude – April 13, 2021, 01:15:00 pm

Seems like the possible fuse you mention would cover at least the whole front level system instead of each line individually.

In spite of how it seems, there is indeed a fuse for each solenoid. The .pdf file below has a diagram of the common control boxes. You may have to blow it up a bit, but it shows the fuses.

This diagram, along with a great deal of helpful info, is contained in the HWH Air Leveling Systems Textbook. I think it should be required reading for every Foretravel owner. JMO

https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=media;sa=item;in=1458#viewitem

Re: Raise/lower malfunction

Reply #17 – April 13, 2021, 02:12:33 pm

A suggestion for likely location of control box?

Re: Raise/lower malfunction

Reply #18 – April 13, 2021, 02:55:26 pm

One of the owners of newer coaches could tell you. I don't know where it is on your coach. Probably mounted on the ceiling or the walls of one of your storage bays.
May be a plain looking aluminum box with a removable cover. Will have a big wiring bundle coming out of it.

Re: Raise/lower malfunction

Reply #19 – April 13, 2021, 03:18:52 pm

Quote

A suggestion for likely location of control box?

On my 99 320 36' it was on the ceiling in the joey bed compartment.
jor

Re: Raise/lower malfunction

Reply #20 – April 13, 2021, 03:35:47 pm

Thanks to you both. Found it on ceiling in storage compartment. It's bigger than expected and I had initially overlooked it. About to crawl back in to check the fuses.

Re: Raise/lower malfunction

Reply #21 – April 13, 2021, 03:42:50 pm

Well.....I found a bad 5A fuse. Go figure. Now to hunt around to see if I got one or go get one.

Re: Raise/lower malfunction

Reply #22 – April 13, 2021, 06:32:03 pm

Replaced fuse. Still no raise. Checked new fuse and it did not burn. LF bags don't inflate at all when I try to raise. Others raise as expected. Still waiting for hand with metering the line. Thinking about banging may head on something, but guess I'll just relax until I can put the meter on it.

Re: Raise/lower malfunction

Reply #23 – April 13, 2021, 07:13:47 pm

You are getting down to only a couple more places to check (one of which could get expensive). You will need a helper and your multimeter to proceed.

Here are the trouble shooting steps from the HWH 600 Series Service Manual (see link below):

Part 4 continued

d. Air bags will not inflate when an up arrow is pushed.

REPAIR STEPS SOLUTION
Check the appropriate fuse for that raise solenoid valve. If the fuse is blown the valve, or the power wire to the valve is shorted. If the fuse is not blown check for power on the corresponding pin in the control box. If power is not present, replace the control box. If power is present on the pin, the problem is the wire to the valve, the ground for the valve, or the valve. Check for power in the harness plug. If it is a 2 - wire plug check between the two pins in the plug. If it is a 1 - wire plug check between the plug and ground. If power is present check the ground for the solenoid if it is a 1 - wire plug. Replace the valve if power is present and the ground is OK. If power is not present a wire or connection is bad. If a 2-wire plug is used the white wire is ground. Check for power between the colored wire and a frame member. If power is present repair the ground wire. If power is not present repair the colored wire.

https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=media;sa=item;in=1457#viewitem

Re: Raise/lower malfunction

Reply #24 – April 13, 2021, 08:17:08 pm

My help with line check got called back to work before we could do the check. I have a two wire plug but they're both black. One may have a stripe but have to check in better light next look. Would you guess the marked one to be ground or vice versa. Whatever, it should read 12V+ when checked across the pins on the second press of the raise button, right? I think Lisa can assist with that as soon as I can get the meter out of my son's truck. I do have some 2 wire 16 or 18 ga. Left over from doing my see level install that should do for a new run, if needed... heaven forbid.

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