Starter Issue, HELP

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Starter Issue, HELP

June 13, 2021, 12:07:38 pm

Hello all, please help!

Back story, changed the starter just over a year ago. Genuine Delco Remy 8200308 NEW 39MT Gear Reduction Starter 12V 11 Tooth FL0579.

Was on a trip last weekend and the bus started simply by putting the key to the on position. I shut it down and repeated with a good start.

Today I went to start and it sounded like an airplane motor to find out the starter was spinning and then smoking, see pic.

Is this an ignition issue that fried my solenoid or a faulty starter solenoid? Any thoughts of where I should start? Anyone know what ignition goes into a 2000 U320?

Re: Starter Issue, HELP

Reply #1 – June 13, 2021, 12:21:37 pm

Sounds like your ignition switch is failing
Scott

Re: Starter Issue, HELP

Reply #2 – June 13, 2021, 12:24:21 pm

Given what you said about turning you key to run position and the starter started turning
I would go with Scott bad ignition switch.

Re: Starter Issue, HELP

Reply #3 – June 13, 2021, 12:25:29 pm

Quote from: dsd – June 13, 2021, 12:21:37 pm

Sounds like your ignition switch is failing
Scott

would that have caused the solenoid failure?

Re: Starter Issue, HELP

Reply #4 – June 13, 2021, 12:32:02 pm

Ignition switch does not return to run position completely keeping the signal to solenoid engaged. It's just doing what its told. Your coach had lots of corrosion when I previewed it. Easy to verify with test lamp once power wire is removed. Just check that the solenoid shuts off 100% of the time with key is released from start position. Also there is a spring that may have failed in the switch or the linkage or key lock may be the issue. Easy to remove lock for troubleshooting
Scott

Re: Starter Issue, HELP

Reply #5 – June 13, 2021, 12:35:01 pm

On my 99 U320 looks like a GM ignition. Yes the ignition switch if holding the starter
engaged could burn out the solenoid and most likely the starter. I wouldn't take a
chance on it and would just replace the ignition switch.

Re: Starter Issue, HELP

Reply #6 – June 13, 2021, 12:35:54 pm

Ignition switch OR solenoid points sticking. Either will cause the same symptoms.

Re: Starter Issue, HELP

Reply #7 – June 13, 2021, 12:48:35 pm

Any tips on removal? Seems simple but I am struggling!

Re: Starter Issue, HELP

Reply #8 – June 13, 2021, 12:56:37 pm

I would verify and isolate failure prior to removing. Remove power solenoid wire from solenoid. The small wire. Then using a test light verify normal operation or not. Do you feel a spring return out of the start position or when going from off position to ignition on prior to going to start does the solenoid receive power.

Re: Starter Issue, HELP

Reply #9 – June 13, 2021, 01:01:32 pm

That is the same ignition switch as the 99 and the outer ring needs to be turned
off. It is hard to turn it. I imagine there is a tool to remove it by the three notches
in the outer ring.

Re: Starter Issue, HELP

Reply #10 – June 13, 2021, 01:03:28 pm

You do not need to remove bezel on ignition switch to remove. Simply insert paper clip wire into little hole to the left of the key hole and rotate counterclockwise past assessory position, gently pulling and remove lock assembly. You can operate lock assembly in hand. It should be smooth and free to rotate. With lock remove you an use a flat blade #2 screwdriver to rotate switch and check for same and spring back out of start position also with solenoid test light going out
Scott

Re: Starter Issue, HELP

Reply #11 – June 13, 2021, 01:21:13 pm

Scotts information on removing the lock assembly is necessary to turn the bezel and remove the switch if it is the problem. You will need a new solenoid at least.

Re: Starter Issue, HELP

Reply #12 – June 13, 2021, 01:32:54 pm

Loosing a starter is expensive and inconvenient. At this point I would replace the ignition switch and the starter solenoid even if you replaced the starter solenoid when you changed the starter.

Re: Starter Issue, HELP

Reply #13 – June 13, 2021, 01:52:16 pm

Quote from: Farrarkc – June 13, 2021, 12:25:29 pm

would that have caused the solenoid failure?

Maybe I missed the answer, if so my apologies.

Yes. The starter solenoid and the starter motor are only meant to work intermittently. Not "bang it with a stick" intermittent but for short periods of time.

Re: Starter Issue, HELP

Reply #14 – June 13, 2021, 01:52:26 pm

Stater motor may or may not be destroyed. Wouldn't know till it was disassembled and inspected for over speed damage. There is a chance it's good. I wouldn't take a chance with the switch. It's to cheap to replace and it's twenty years old and lived in a less than desirable environment. Nevertheless still need to isolate the problem before repair take place or you could be repeating another failure or worse yet a fire. IMO
Scott
NAPA numbers of KS6603 for the switch mechanism and KS6491 for the lock cylinder

Re: Starter Issue, HELP

Reply #15 – June 13, 2021, 02:25:54 pm

Thank you to everyone for the assistance!!

Being the solenoid was smoking and damaged I choose to simple drop the starter. I will be taking it to a starter shop I know and have them check that out and, as stated the ignitions are so cheap, I will be replacing the ignition too.

Hope to have an update tomorrow!!

Re: Starter Issue, HELP

Reply #16 – June 13, 2021, 02:28:17 pm

Replace the ignition switch and the starter solenoid. Both relatively inexpensive.

Re: Starter Issue, HELP

Reply #17 – June 14, 2021, 01:55:06 pm

Here is the starter sequence documentation.

Turn the ignition key and these explain what has to work to get starter to crank engine.

All steps must work, any part of this sequence can cause failures.

Attached is also my original Excel workbook with two spreadsheets that hopefully are easier to use, and can be modified to fit other individual coach.

Re: Starter Issue, HELP

Reply #18 – June 14, 2021, 05:34:05 pm

This is great information but it is a bit above my pay level.

I had the starter and solenoid rebuilt as needed. I have installed a new ignition switch. Before hooking the small wire to the starter I tested the power on the ignition on (no power) start mode (power). Thought all was good then I attached the wire and went to start the bus. Turned the key to on position and the starter started cranking.

I am totally lost and 36 hours away from leaving. HELP!!

Re: Starter Issue, HELP

Reply #19 – June 14, 2021, 06:11:55 pm

Disconnect the starter button at the rear of the coach and try again.

Re: Starter Issue, HELP

Reply #20 – June 14, 2021, 07:29:07 pm

Why replace ignition until after checking circuits with meter. If ignition start wire still has 12v after ignition key is moved back from start position, then ignition switch is bad. If no 12v, ignition switch is NOT the problem.

Meter Aux Start solenoid: If starter motor is turning with NO voltage on cable to starter, then it is a starter problem.

Only replace parts after checking circuit with volt meter.

Re: Starter Issue, HELP

Reply #21 – June 14, 2021, 08:29:59 pm

Possible isolator panel starter solenoid is sticking closed and not releasing, something to check.

Re: Starter Issue, HELP

Reply #22 – June 14, 2021, 09:55:52 pm

Another ignition key to starter wiring sequence for our coach:

wire

circuit code description

START BATTERY

B1 000 start battery POS post big cable goes to starter solenoid large terminal

B5 000 start battery NEG post new very big cable bolted to motorhome frame [change to bolt to engine]

STARTER

B5 000 big cable from battery to starter solenoid large terminal

B14 2RD big cable on start solenoid goes to rightmost isolator terminal

ISOLATOR

B14 2RD big cable from starter solenoid

B15 2RD large cable to 90-amp circuit breaker on bay wall panel

B26 RD wire to aux start solenoid on isolator panel aux start solenoid

BAY WALL PANEL BREAKER

B15 2RD large cable from isolator to leftmost 90-amp big round start battery circuit breaker's lower terminal

B69 wire from 90-amp breaker to 30-amp ATEC circuit breaker on bay wall panel

C6 RD 10-gauge wire from 30-amp ATEC breaker to front door panel

FRONT DOOR PANEL BREAKER

C6 RD wire from bay wall panel to leftmost 10-amp ATEC-ECM circuit breaker located on top-row

136 WH wire from 10-amp breaker to Allison ECM interface-plug RD# 136A & 136C, "unswitched batt +"

ALLISON ECM COMPUTER

ECM computer is located behind carpeted side panel to the left of driver's left foot

136 WH wire from 10-amp breaker to both terminals RD# 136A & 136C, labeled "unswitched batt +"

123 PU wire from ECM terminal PU# 123, labeled "neutral safety", indicating transmission is in neutral, to neutral safety relay

FRONT DOOR PANEL RELAY

123 PU 12-volt positive from Allison, when transmission is in neutral will close #86 coil on neutral safety relay

green ground wire completes #85 coil circuit on neutral safety relay located 2nd from bottom on right side of panel

122 WH ignition key momentary start position flows start battery current to neutral start relay #30 common terminal

E9 WH ignition key current flows from N/O #87 relay terminal to aux start solenoid located on isolator panel

ISOLATOR PANEL SOLENOID

AUX START solenoid is leftmost of the two solenoids and is located in center of isolator panel above air cleaner

E9 WH ignition key current flows through neutral start relay to small coil terminal on the aux start solenoid, coil is internally grounded to case

B26 RD start battery current flows from isolator terminal through aux start solenoid when solenoid is closed (by ignition momentary start)

B25 RD when aux start solenoid is closed start battery current flow to starter solenoid coil to activate engine starter, coil is internally grounded

IGNITION RELAYS

IGNITION DUAL-RELAYS are large cube-shaped and are mounted to lower center of front door panel

REMOTE STOP RELAY is positioned lying loose in bottom center of front door panel

103 WH when ignition key is turned on, 103 WH flows start battery current through secure-switch to

remote-stop relay #30 common terminal and through NORMALLY-CLOSED #87A terminal

103A WH to dual-ignition-solenoid coils to close ignition relays, which allows start battery current to flow to ALL ignition circuits

REAR ENGINE REMOTE START PANEL

E21 WH ignition circuit breaker #19 located in front door panel powers remote start system start & stop momentary push button switches

E23 WH pushing remote start switch powers ignition key start wire E22-WH to turn starter on (same as turning ignition key to start positon)

E61 WH pushing remote stop switch powers remote stop relay #86 coil, opening relay and turning 103A-WH power off to ignition dual-relays

green ground wire completes #85 coil circuit on remote stop relay

when remote stop relay is powered, 103A-WH power from ignition key is disrupted, turning off ALL ignition circuits MOMENTARILY,

which kills power to engine fuel shut-off solenoid, thus stopping engine

letting up on remote stop switch allows ignition dual-relays to again close, as ignition key is still on

Re: Starter Issue, HELP

Reply #23 – June 14, 2021, 09:55:55 pm

There are several actuation steps that occur in sequence when our ignition key is turned to "start" position:

starter engage circuit from wiring diagram

start battery cable connections

1 Start battery positive post

2 starter solenoid terminal

3 to boost solenoid terminal

4 isolator terminal

5 to 90 amp circuit breaker terminal (behind white bay wall panel)

30 amp Allison circuit breaker (behind white bay wall panel)

6 input B69

7 output C6 red

10 amp Allison circuit breaker #1 (right-dash panel)

8 input ATEC-ECM C6 red

9 output ATEC-ECM 136 white

Allison transmission ECM (behind lower left driver seat side kick panel

10 inputs B2-136A & B11-136C - unswitched battery +

11 output A23-123 PU Violet - neutral-start output when trans in neutral (closes relay #1 coil)

ignition switch

12 input 91 white from 15 amp circuit breaker #28 (located on front dash breaker panel start batt buss)

13 output 122 white start position to neutral safety relay common

neutral safety bosch relay R1 (right side of front dash CB panel)

14 relay 86 coil from step#11 (trans neutral closes relay) 123 purple

15 relay 85 coil (battery negative connected to other coil terminal)

16 relay 30 common is from ignition switch start position 122 white step#13 (or from remote start button E23)

17 relay 87 N/O is E9 white to aux start solenoid coil (powered from ignition switch start) on isolator panel

(aux start sol below closes when when trans in neutral & ign key in start position)

(and aux start solenoid coil is powered from ignition key start position)

auxilary start solenoid (located on inverter panel)

18 coil small wire from step#17 (battery positive closes relay)

19 input large side post from start battery positive step#4 B26 red

20 output large side post to starter solenoid coil B25 red

Re: Starter Issue, HELP

Reply #24 – June 15, 2021, 11:44:56 am

IF there is there 12v on large output terminal when there are zero volts on small terminal(S) it is sticking OR the starter solenoid is backfeeding 12v from big wire to starter.

Check Aux Start solenoid by removing the output cable on the large solenoid terminal. If still 12v on large threaded bolt terminal it is sticking.

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