Starting trouble. Solenoid? Isolator? Something else?

Topic: Starting trouble. Solenoid? Isolator? Something else? (Read 1990 times) previous topic - next topic

Starting trouble. Solenoid? Isolator? Something else?

June 27, 2021, 03:51:07 pm

Hey there techie friends who know all the things that boggle our minds about our engine systems. We are in a bit of a place right now with our coach where we are not sure what to make of it. Some of you know our coach was in climate controlled storage for two years (much longer than we had intended due to Covid), but when we got her out in December she started up like a dream (it helped that we had a friend who would start it once a month and take it out for a spin around town...we were seriously so blessed). We had no issues whatsoever all through January and part of February as well, but then we parked the rig at my parents house in VA in their driveway until end of May when the school season ended in Hawaii and when we came back we started having issues with starting. My dad did start the rig a few times while we were gone and moved it up and down the long driveway to move the tires, but it did sit through the end of the winter season outside.

The first thing that happened one time was, after starting, it continued to beep and the air pressure would drop when pumping on the break. We turned off the coach and checked all the air bags thinking maybe it was something there. We cleaned out a lot of debris and such underneath the coach and turned the generator and the boost on to see if that would make a difference. We started the coach again and everything started up and the alarm stopped and pressure was normal. We took a trip out to the VA coast and everything ran perfectly smoothly.

Meanwhile, our house batteries are getting near the end of life, we know that, but we've been holding off on purchasing because we were only planning on being in our coach for the summer and we thought we could get one more trip out of them. We just replaced the engine batteries two years ago, so I don't think the problem is there, but could the bad coach batteries be part of a start up issue? We have also noticed that the "charging light" on our trimetric system has not always been lighting up anymore. It does sometimes, but not all of the time and sometimes it will come on, but then go off. And when we are plugged into shore power the battery percentage will go down even though we are plugged in, but it won't give the "battery low" signal.

Anyways, we got back to my parents house and stayed another week for my birthday before getting ready to set out for Trent's parents' house in Michigan, but when we went to start the coach it wouldn't start at all. The regular beeping would come on when we turned the key half way, but when we did the full turn we would hear a loud click in the back of the coach and nothing would happen, not even a try at a start. Trent got into all of the battery compartments yesterday and totally took everything apart and cleaned all of the terminals until shining and cleaned up the starter solenoid as well and the coach started up just fine after that so we thought maybe that was it. We got through West VA mountains like it was nothing, but then we stopped at Seneca Rocks Recreation area and when we came back to the coach it wouldn't start. Trent checked all of the battery connections and tightened them thinking maybe something came loose in our travels from when he had taken everything apart and it started up.

This morning, after staying at Walmart overnight, everything started up just fine. We thought we were good. Then, at a rest stop just inside the Michigan line we stopped a shut down for lunch and when we went to start her up again, nothing. Without the boost on we wouldn't even get the starting alarms when we turned the key halfway. Trent was thinking it was the starter solenoid so he went and tinkered with that for a bit but nothing changed. Finally, he took one of the cables off the engine battery and replaced and tightened them and the coach started.

Maybe removing those reset something? Is it the automatic reset circuit breaker? Could the isolator be going bad? Could it just be our bad house batteries that are causing all of the problems? We have been looking through posts on here and reading a bit on Beam Alarm, but we don't really know where to start to pinpoint exactly what is going on or if it might even be multiple issues from being outside for 3 1/2 months. We are thankful that at least we were able to get the coach started again to get to Trent's parents' house where we can safely troubleshoot and have access to another vehicle to get parts if needed (we are traveling without our van for this trip) and where we have Trent's dad who is an electrical engineer and really helpful, but he doesn't know RVs and specifically these coaches like you guys do so I wanted to hop on here and see if we we could get some advice from you guys on where to start and how to isolate the problem(s) we are having so we can get up and running again soon.

Thanks for any help you might be able to offer. We so appreciate having so many brilliant Foretravel gurus at hand when we really need it. <3

Re: Starting trouble. Solenoid? Isolator? Something else?

Reply #1 – June 27, 2021, 04:17:30 pm

OK, start by fully charging both battery banks. If on shore power, pretty easy as long as batteries (both chassis and house banks) have not been discharged to below 12 VDC. If so, a smart charger may NOT start to charge them. If this is the case, use a "stupid" charger or jump from another vehicle to get them high enough for the smart charger to take over.

If you don't have a means of charging the chassis battery from shore power (none provided as OE equipment) you can use the boost switch once the house bank is charged.

Do not even start to troubleshoot starting problems until both banks fully charged.

When they are fully charged, disconnect from shore power and put a digital voltmeter on the chassis battery while someone else turns the key to try to start it. HOW LOW DOES VOLTAGE AT THE CHASSIS BATTERY GET?

Try starting with boost switch ON. HOW LOW DOES VOLTAGE AT THE CHASSIS BATTERY GET?

Let us know when you have done this and we can take it from there.

Troubleshooting electrical issues and/or starting issues before verifying the batteries are up to snuff can send you chasing your tail all over the coach.

Re: Starting trouble. Solenoid? Isolator? Something else?

Reply #2 – June 27, 2021, 04:42:49 pm

I have had a similar intermittent starting problem that turned out to
be one of the battery cable clamps. just because they appear tight
does not always mean they are putting a squeeze on the battery posts.
could be that simple. good luck

Re: Starting trouble. Solenoid? Isolator? Something else?

Reply #3 – June 27, 2021, 04:52:56 pm

I would also add that the start batteries should be load tested and voltage tested individually after you charge them as per Wolfe's recommendations. When you test them in parallel you can get fooled by a bad battery. I had one start battery that showed good voltage, but failed a load test. If your coach doesn't provide a means of charging start batteries while on shore power you can run into problems in a week of sitting still. Harbor Freight sells an inexpensive load tester, Autozone and other parts stores will test individual batteries for free if you bring them in. Your start batteries should provide approx. 900 CCA each. Each engine manufacturer will have a recommended CCA for starting. My 97 C8.3 recommends 1800 CCA. Good luck.

Re: Starting trouble. Solenoid? Isolator? Something else?

Reply #4 – June 27, 2021, 04:55:40 pm

If you get it in a no start / crank instance you can take a test light or volt meter and go across one at a time your connections. If you have a bad connection or bad cable the test light will illuminate or read voltage when it is jumped across the bad point. IE; at the battery post go from the center to the lug around it. No light go lug to next lug, continue till you isolate your issue. Your new batteries can also be the problem. Please use eye protection while working with batteries. Baking soda neutralizes acid on lead acid batteries. Also check grounds on battery and chassis. Same with coach batteries.
Scott

Re: Starting trouble. Solenoid? Isolator? Something else?

Reply #5 – June 27, 2021, 05:17:24 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – June 27, 2021, 04:17:30 pm

OK, start by fully charging both battery banks. If on shore power, pretty easy as long as batteries (both chassis and house banks) have not been discharged to below 12 VDC. If so, a smart charger may NOT start to charge them. If this is the case, use a "stupid" charger or jump from another vehicle to get them high enough for the smart charger to take over.

If you don't have a means of charging the chassis battery from shore power (none provided as OE equipment) you can use the boost switch once the house bank is charged.

Do not even start to troubleshoot starting problems until both banks fully charged.

When they are fully charged, disconnect from shore power and put a digital voltmeter on the chassis battery while someone else turns the key to try to start it. HOW LOW DOES VOLTAGE AT THE CHASSIS BATTERY GET?

Try starting with boost switch ON. HOW LOW DOES VOLTAGE AT THE CHASSIS BATTERY GET?

Let us know when you have done this and we can take it from there.

Troubleshooting electrical issues and/or starting issues before verifying the batteries are up to snuff can send you chasing your tail all over the coach.

Our chassis and house batteries are both supposed to charge by shore power (or at least they always did before) and they had been on shore power (30 amp) the whole time it was plugged in at my parents' house. When we arrive at Trent's parents' house they should be fully charged just from the drive, shouldn't they? Either way, how do we know they are fully charged if it doesn't seem our trimetric is working properly? And what if we can't get the coach to actually start again? How will we know how much voltage is drawing off the chassis battery then? Sorry...totally newbs still when it comes to battery stuff even after five years of ownership. We just never have any problems so no need to troubleshoot these things...

When we arrive we will try to restart right away and get a reading on the chassis batteries with the boost off and the boost on and let you know.

Thanks for all the help, Brett! And everyone else too! We love this community so much. You guys make owning a Foretravel a joy.

Re: Starting trouble. Solenoid? Isolator? Something else?

Reply #6 – June 27, 2021, 05:21:11 pm

Pull out your DIGITAL VOLTMETER. Don't have one-- under $20 at most box stores and auto parts houses.

NO guessing.

Tell us actual voltage at the battery when someone tries to start the coach.

Without these facts, we can speculate until the cows come home and run you all over the coach looking for "this could be a problem" things.

Re: Starting trouble. Solenoid? Isolator? Something else?

Reply #7 – June 27, 2021, 05:25:30 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – June 27, 2021, 05:21:11 pm

Pull out your DIGITAL VOLTMETER. Don't have one-- under $20 at most box stores and auto parts houses.

NO guessing.

Tell us actual voltage at the battery when someone tries to start the coach.

Without these facts, we can speculate until the cows come home and run you all over the coach looking for "this could be a problem" things.

Yes...we have a digital voltmeter and have been using that. Will update shortly.

Re: Starting trouble. Solenoid? Isolator? Something else?

Reply #8 – June 27, 2021, 06:02:57 pm

Okay...so we pulled in and shut the rig off and started it back up. The chassis batteries were reading at 13.45 and when we restarted the lowest number I saw (they changed so fast) was 11.4 and then we started it with the boost and I saw an 11.8

Re: Starting trouble. Solenoid? Isolator? Something else?

Reply #9 – June 27, 2021, 06:09:01 pm

With those reading, any starting issues??? Other electrical issues?

Re: Starting trouble. Solenoid? Isolator? Something else?

Reply #10 – June 27, 2021, 06:33:20 pm

Start the engine,read the volts while running just in engine batteries.
Shut off , read volts.
Crank while reading volts.

Re: Starting trouble. Solenoid? Isolator? Something else?

Reply #11 – June 27, 2021, 07:21:00 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – June 27, 2021, 06:09:01 pm

With those reading, any starting issues??? Other electrical issues?

Yes...starting issues, but I don't know why. The chassis batteries were brand new 2 years ago right before going into storage for a year and a half and they were kept on a trickle charge in climate controlled storage the whole time. It wasn't until February that the coach was kept outside at my parents' house, plugged into 30 amp shore power until May when we arrived back from Hawaii.
It shouldn't be a problem with the chassis batteries, at least I hope not. They were $200 each and we never even got to use them

There seem to be other electrical issues as well though. Our trimetric isn't consistently showing a charging light, even when we are plugged into shore power or driving or when the generator is on. Recently the house batteries have not been lasting overnight when we are staying at a Walmart or something, but I said before, we know the house batteries are not the greatest. They've been performing poorly ever since we got our coach back from friends who borrowed it and drove it to Florida for us a couple of years ago. I think they did a little too much boondocking and ran the battery below 50% too much even though we asked them not to.

We have had some electrical issues in the past that I don't think are connected, but maybe a short somewhere. Mostly in the back bedroom. There's a bedside light and the a/c that would intermittently not turn on. They've been working fine recently though so I don't think that's connected. And when we are plugged into shore power everything works fine. It's just mostly been starting problems we've been having and trimetric issues.

Re: Starting trouble. Solenoid? Isolator? Something else?

Reply #12 – June 27, 2021, 07:22:46 pm

Quote from: Protech Racing – June 27, 2021, 06:33:20 pm

Start the engine,read the volts while running just in engine batteries.
Shut off , read volts.
Crank while reading volts.

What should the voltage look like during running, shut off and cranking?

Re: Starting trouble. Solenoid? Isolator? Something else?

Reply #13 – June 27, 2021, 07:50:26 pm

And for what it's worth, earlier when things weren't starting we checked the voltage with the voltmeter and the voltage didn't change at all. But that's when we were just getting the click in the back.

Re: Starting trouble. Solenoid? Isolator? Something else?

Reply #14 – June 27, 2021, 08:40:07 pm

Have you checked to positive and ground connections at the starter/engine?

Clean metal and connections tight?

Re: Starting trouble. Solenoid? Isolator? Something else?

Reply #15 – June 27, 2021, 11:08:49 pm

Mine did the same thing and I replaced the starter and it fixed the gremlins. Get a reduction starter

Re: Starting trouble. Solenoid? Isolator? Something else?

Reply #16 – June 27, 2021, 11:37:12 pm

Been mulling over your intermittent starting problem. I'm not worrying about the other problems you mentioned - just working in my head on the "no crank" situation. If I made any glaring mistakes in my sequence below, I expect the smarter members of this Forum to please correct me.

Here is a simplified list of the engine cranking sequence components in roughly the order that they are required or activated:

1. Start batteries
2. Ignition switch
3. 90 Amp circuit breaker
4. Ignition solenoid
5. Neutral start safety switch
6. Aux start solenoid
7. Starter solenoid
8. Battery cables going to starter
9. Starter motor

ALL of these components must operate correctly to make the engine crank. There is other stuff required to make the engine start, but that's not our concern at the moment. Loose, dirty or badly corroded wiring connections at any point in this sequence could cause intermittent failure to crank.

Expanding a bit on each component:

1. Start batteries: Batteries must be fully charged, with no dead cells. Check each battery individually for proper resting voltage, 12.6 to 12.8, with a multimeter, and for dead cells with a load tester. After batteries are tested, reinstall and be sure all cables and connectors are clean and tight.

2. Ignition switch: Check that the connections on the back of the ignition switch are clean and tight. Make sure the "HOT" supply wire to the switch is good.

3. 90 Amp circuit breaker: Located behind the white fiberglass cover on the aft wall of the central storage bay. Supplies 12 volt power from start batteries to the ignition solenoid under dash. Check to be sure it is HOT on both posts of the breaker.

4. Ignition solenoid: Located under your lift-up dash cover. Check with multimeter. With ignition key OFF one large post on the ignition solenoid should be HOT, and the other large post should not be HOT. Turn the ignition key to ON and both large posts on the ignition solenoid should be HOT. If not, the small wire running from the ignition switch to the small post on the ignition solenoid may be broken or loosely connected.

5. Neutral start safety switch: To tell the truth, I don't know where this switch is located. If it does not work properly, the engine will not crank because it won't "know" the transmission is in neutral.

6. Aux start solenoid: Located on the isolator panel, or nearby. With the ignition key in the OFF (or ON) position, one large post on the aux start solenoid should be HOT, and the other large post should not be HOT. When the ignition key is turned to START this solenoid receives power to the small post from the Neutral start safety switch, and both large posts should then be HOT.

7. Starter solenoid: Mounted on the starter motor. Receives activation power from the aux start solenoid. When activated this solenoid connects high amperage feed from start battery cable to starter motor, and engages the pinion gear on the nose of the starter with the ring gear on the engine. If this solenoid "sticks" it can sometimes be freed up with percussive persuasion. See threads linked below.

8. Starter motor: Cranks the engine over so hopefully it starts.

Threads below may be of some help (or at least encouragement, knowing others have been in the same boat):

8.2 DD won't start

Its Aliiiiiiiiivvveee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Starting trouble. Solenoid? Isolator? Something else?

Reply #17 – June 28, 2021, 08:34:51 am

Without the boost on we wouldn't even get the starting alarms when we turned the key halfway. Trent was thinking it was the starter solenoid so he went and tinkered with that for a bit but nothing changed. Finally, he took one of the cables off the engine battery and replaced and tightened them and the coach started.

Based on this statement.......... I would make sure the chassis (cranking) batteries cable grounds to the frame and or engine connections are clean and tight. Have Trent put the voltmeter on the large positive cable on the starter (red lead) and chassis frame (black lead) while you try to start it. If you get 12v and no start then you are looking at a bad connection from the battery to ground OR ... a defective starter. (most likely the brushes are sticking, not making a good connection) tap it with a small hammer.

BE SURE TO USE SAFETY BLOCKS WHILE WORKING UNDER THE COACH........

Re: Starting trouble. Solenoid? Isolator? Something else?

Reply #18 – June 28, 2021, 10:06:36 am

Cranking volts should stay over 10 on the Meter. If the volts do not drop while cranking, you have faulty connections along the electron path. Battry post, cable ends, grounds. All may be weak.

Re: Starting trouble. Solenoid? Isolator? Something else?

Reply #19 – June 28, 2021, 10:35:42 am

Quote

7. Starter solenoid: Mounted on the starter motor. Receives power from the aux start solenoid.

On that rig, the starter solenoid is mounted on the isolator panel in the wheel well area.
jor

Re: Starting trouble. Solenoid? Isolator? Something else?

Reply #20 – June 28, 2021, 11:15:59 am

Quote from: jor – June 28, 2021, 10:35:42 am

On that rig, the starter solenoid is mounted on the isolator panel in the wheel well area.
jor

The solenoid mounted on the isolator panel is the AUX start solenoid (#6 on my list).

The STARTER solenoid (#7 on my list) is part and parcel with the starter, mounted on the engine block. The big battery cable connects at the STARTER solenoid. See photo below:

Re: Starting trouble. Solenoid? Isolator? Something else?

Reply #21 – June 28, 2021, 11:27:09 am

Trent,
Rereading all this it seems the problem went away at least two times when you removed and reinstalled the start battery cables.
Maybe you have a battery cable to battery clamp(connector) problem?

Re: Starting trouble. Solenoid? Isolator? Something else?

Reply #22 – June 28, 2021, 11:38:45 am

Quote from: Walkerfam7 – June 27, 2021, 07:21:00 pm

Yes...starting issues, but I don't know why.

There seem to be other electrical issues as well though. Our trimetric isn't consistently showing a charging light, even when we are plugged into shore power or driving or when the generator is on. Recently the house batteries have not been lasting overnight when we are staying at a Walmart or something,

It's just mostly been starting problems we've been having and trimetric issues.

As I continue to analyze your first post in this thread, and your subsequent posts, I see what I feel is a fundamental problem. You don't have a simple, reliable means of ascertaining the relative condition of your two battery banks. I don't mean this as a criticism - just a statement of fact. If you don't know what is "happening" in your battery banks, then you are shooting in the dark.

Obviously, your batteries are critical to the operation of your coach. No need to list the ways they are essential. The trouble is, Foretravel did not (originally) equip your coach (or mine) with a good battery monitor system. They gave us two volt meters - the analog dial meter in the instrument panel, and the Audit digital meter displayed on the CRT. That's it! Not the easiest setup for monitoring your batteries when driving, and when parked neither of them are even powered.

The more experienced members on this Forum have long advocated for a better means of monitoring battery bank condition. Many suggestions have been posted on how to do this. Ideas range from using 2 cheap lighter plug volt meters to spending many hundreds of dollars for sophisticated hardware and software. The end goal however is the same: to be able to tell at any time, and with a quick glance, exactly what is the condition of the two battery banks and how do they compare.

I see from reading past posts that your coach's previous owner installed a TriMetric TM-2025-A battery monitor system. I have never used this system, so no personal knowledge. From reading the instruction sheet (linked below) I see it uses a shunt to monitor the activity in the house battery bank, and also has a secondary readout for the voltage (only) in the start battery bank. This may be a great system, but because of the location of the monitor panel in your coach, it is not useable by the driver when driving. You also report some erratic (or non-existent) readings from the monitor. For this reason, I would not put much faith in what it is telling you. You, or a service technician, should review the installation instructions and figure out why it is malfunctioning.

Bogart Engineering TM-2025-A - TriMetric 2025 12/24/48 Volt Battery System...

My suggestion, in the meantime, is that you purchase two inexpensive digital volt meters and mount them on the dash in clear view of the driver. Connect one to coach battery bank and one to start battery bank. You will find both voltage sources under the lift-up dash cover on your GV. These volt meters should be powered at all times. The amp draw is negligible. Every time you enter the coach, you should glance at the meters and instantly know the relative condition of your battery banks. I stress the word "relative" because the meters may not show the actual battery voltage due to transmission loss in the long wires from the batteries to the meters. For this purpose, however, that is not important. What the meters will tell you is if the voltage is increasing, decreasing, or steady. They will tell you if a battery bank is being charged, or being depleted. They will tell you if the banks are operating independently or connected together. They will tell you if the alternator is working correctly, and if the isolator is functioning properly. All this from 2 simple cheap meters. Money well spent for peace of mind! Some examples in the link below:

Amazon.com : mini voltmeter

Photo of my dash volt meters below. When photo was taken, my battery banks were combined, hence the identical readings. The SeeLevel monitor is displaying start battery volts:

Re: Starting trouble. Solenoid? Isolator? Something else?

Reply #23 – June 28, 2021, 11:40:31 am

Quote

The STARTER solenoid (#7 on my list) is part and parcel with the starter

Oh, OK, of course. I misunderstood. I need to read these threads more carefully before jumping in!

I don't want to confuse the issue. Anyhow, the start solenoid up front is a Blue Sea and the one on the isolator panel is Cole-Hersee and both were replaced back in 2014.
jor

Re: Starting trouble. Solenoid? Isolator? Something else?

Reply #24 – June 28, 2021, 11:51:06 am

Quote from: jor – June 28, 2021, 11:40:31 am

...the start solenoid up front is a Blue Sea and the one on the isolator panel is Cole-Hersee and both were replaced back in 2014.

I am sure the Walkers will appreciate any ideas you can supply to help solve their present problems. Your intimate knowledge of the coach could be very valuable in this regard.

The two solenoids you replaced in 2014 should still be in excellent condition. I would just want to verify that the wiring connections at both points are clean and tight, then move on to other more likely suspect areas.

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