Did Foretravel cheapen out on things? [split from Re: fuel lines]

Topic: Did Foretravel cheapen out on things? [split from Re: fuel lines] (Read 1388 times) previous topic - next topic - Topic derived from fuel lines

Did Foretravel cheapen out on things? [split from Re: fuel lines]

July 06, 2021, 10:18:21 pm

Quote from: Michelle – July 06, 2021, 08:54:45 pm

Unlikely. Foretravel in that era was not known to cheap out on anything. As you know, in 1995 FT changed over to a bus-front design. Who knows what component, manufacturing, design, etc. changes that caused. Could even have been a process change at the fuel line manufacturer.

Not to be argumentative, but I don't recall them ever using any primer, galvanizing or anything else on the lower structure. No stainless fasteners, fiberglass mat instead of cloth used in many place, etc. How much extra would it have cost to have made a shop manual along with a parts manual? One extra employee to record and make all the information available. My bus came with an illustrated shop manual with instructions for maintenance along with a parts manual with an exploded view of every part along with an exact description of that part. Every model and even custom versions should be documented in print easily accessible by owners. Aircraft cost about the same but every modification, every airworthiness (AD) directive is sent to owners free of charge. When an aircraft has an accident, the cause is investigated and a recommendation is given or made mandatory. We get a kick in the teeth. Not just FT but most of the RV industry.

I love our coach but suffer no illusions for it's shortcomings.

Pierce

Re: Did Foretravel cheapen out on things? [split from Re: fuel lines]

Reply #1 – July 06, 2021, 10:33:29 pm

Split this post out to its own topic since it was unrelated to the fuel line discussion.

Re: Did Foretravel cheapen out on things? [split from Re: fuel lines]

Reply #2 – July 06, 2021, 10:49:37 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – July 06, 2021, 10:18:21 pm

Not to be argumentative, but I don't recall them ever using any primer, galvanizing or anything else on the lower structure.

I love our coach but suffer no illusions for it's shortcomings.

Pierce

BOOM!

Re: Did Foretravel cheapen out on things? [split from Re: fuel lines]

Reply #3 – July 06, 2021, 11:25:29 pm

You need to understand, they were built to best of their knowledge at the time. I don't think they expected steel to get wet. Many cars etc are built today with exposed steel. Most RV's also.
Rember, Ray Fore built his own RV 1st, and it transpired from that. I was at the factory many times back then, having had my own business, specifically a van conversion shop, I questioned a few things. Also, Texas is very dry for the most part, unlike most of the US.
But they were good ol' boys, just doing the best they could, with they had. They were not Boeing airplanes. They were not like many huge big dollar financed factories I worked at in Socal in the 60's. They mostly dealt in cash, were hand to mouth. I respected everything they did.
I have worked on them all in 60 yrs, and the ones today are simply piles of cardboard. very sad.
Chris

Re: Did Foretravel cheapen out on things? [split from Re: fuel lines]

Reply #4 – July 06, 2021, 11:57:35 pm

Quote from: gracerace – July 06, 2021, 11:25:29 pm

But they were good ol' boys, just doing the best they could, with they had. They were not Boeing airplanes.
Chris

I have come to believe that to be a actual truth. They in my opinion did a pretty good job. Yes there could be areas with 20-20 hindsight that could be improved. If they had been built to the standards you say they like a Boeing they would be unaffordable to most of us. And I honestly will say if I was designing a Boeing it would be too heavy to fly. Look for the good things, there there. Or dwell on the negative and never go skiing using your coach as home base. Yep everything has its faults
Scott

Re: Did Foretravel cheapen out on things? [split from Re: fuel lines]

Reply #5 – July 07, 2021, 12:14:02 am

"If your going to be dumb, you got to be tough."

is DSD's motto.

I read his posts with enjoyment, and finding myself agreeing with him frequently.
I conclude he is weak, because he certainly is not dumb.

Regards

Klaus

Re: Did Foretravel cheapen out on things? [split from Re: fuel lines]

Reply #6 – July 07, 2021, 12:25:09 am

I'm fairly confident DW will disagree with you. I think all I ended up with was tenacity.

Re: Did Foretravel cheapen out on things? [split from Re: fuel lines]

Reply #7 – July 07, 2021, 12:47:17 am

Chris, Did they really think that every buyer would only be from Texas dry country and never drive to or move to a wetter place? A bit of paint is pretty cheap and the buried steel wouldn't even have to be pretty, Just protected. Esp on a $400,000 piece of equipment. So not even labor intensive to throw on a coat before sending the structure down the line. It ain't rocket science, nor would it have added weight beyond a few once's of paint.

I liken it to the same type of thinking in the Boeing 737Max situation. Boeing didn't think it necessary to use an already existing second AoA sensor on the nose for the MCAS system to compare to when the MCAS was activated by the flight computer and allowed the MCAS to take total control of the aircraft stabilizer and didn't mention that one needs to turn MCAS off if the runaway stabilizer continues to push the nose down for more than three seconds. In this case there was essentially ZERO cost involved to use the other sensor when the runaway stab went beyond three seconds or brief pilots about MCAS's over control and when to shut it off.

Now I'm not directly comparing Foretravel to Boeing. Just the thinking involved in why such a decision was made.

Boeing assumed that the MCAS system would very, very rarely activate. They were wrong. But sadly the solution was always there. Boeing just chose to not use it.

Foretravel assumed that the coach would never see a drop of water. They were wrong. And the solution was easy and cheap to do. Foretravel just chose to not do it. And considering the avg home in 98 was $119K and the 36ft U320 was $375K I wouldn't think that a coat of paint on the 'frame' wouldn't be a bridge too far. But it was.

It sure raises an interesting point of discussion about our coaches that cost 300% more than the average home. The hind sight excuse is not valid. Water has always throughout the history of this planet been the enemy of homes, whether they are mud, sticks and bricks or mobile.

Re: Did Foretravel cheapen out on things? [split from Re: fuel lines]

Reply #8 – July 07, 2021, 01:20:11 am

I full timed in a 1981 Foretravel for 10 years before upgrading to my current 1993 U225. There are many similarities but all in all the 93 is a much better coach. (chassis, air brakes, etc. etc.)
I believe that being in business for so long and providing customer support has been a huge benefit for Foretravel, it's products and their customers.

Re: Did Foretravel cheapen out on things? [split from Re: fuel lines]

Reply #9 – July 07, 2021, 01:58:32 am

All good points, there are shortcomings. No product of man, my new grandson excepted, is perfect.

Back up a bit, though, and consider. What is it about these coaches that makes them so eagerly sought, even at an age where the majority of competing brands have long ago hit the scrap heap? Durability, longevity, servicability, usefulness, and an enduring aura of quality workmanship are the characterisitcs that are often echoed among owners.

Bear in mind that hindsight is 20/20, and the folks that built em did not have the 10+ years of experience operating and maintaining an individual coach like many of us have had.

Re: Did Foretravel cheapen out on things? [split from Re: fuel lines]

Reply #10 – July 07, 2021, 04:19:33 am

Dakota, Chuck.
My point of contention is that it has always been a given that water is enemy #1 of all homes. (mobile or stationary) This water is the enemy is not a new concept that came to light only after FT started using the hidden internal sub-frame design.

So if water is enemy #1 and always has been. Why was it not job #1 to take the small step of painting the sub-frame?

If it were a cheap sob coach, then I guess you get what you pay for.

And that's the point. Foretravels are and always have been high dollar semi custom coaches and thus the high cost should include such simple things. Like rust prevention on the 'hidden' structure that supports the whole bloody coach.

Of course talking about what Foretravel did or didn't do back then or even on ANY? of their sub-frame coaches until they switched to a properly painted Spartan chassis. Is in the end a fruitless exercise.

I find it more interesting that some have proffered excuses for that blunder by Foretravel in past threads on this subject. When in actuality, there is no excuse.

That said. We still like our Foretravel in all it's luxuriously frustrating glory.

Re: Did Foretravel cheapen out on things? [split from Re: fuel lines]

Reply #11 – July 07, 2021, 06:57:38 am

Interestingly we don't see this problem with Newell's or other coaches. I figured out that after 18 years and three Foretravels my next coach will be built by engineers who have many iterations behind them on the chassis. There was and is no way for FT to have made enough coaches to see enough issues to adjust. It is actually better that they are on Spartan now than making their own.

Re: Did Foretravel cheapen out on things? [split from Re: fuel lines]

Reply #12 – July 07, 2021, 07:23:13 am

Quote from: Chuck Pearson – July 07, 2021, 01:58:32 am

Bear in mind that hindsight is 20/20, and the folks that built em did not have the 10+ years of experience operating and maintaining an individual coach like many of us have had.

John S, thank you for your valid comment. Please realize that you recently moved up 15+ years in technology. This is not a criticism of your comment, just my observation. As far as Spartan, yes, an exceptional mfg and product. Also know they too have had numerous, yet understandable, issues over the years. Spartan in 2020 was acquired by REV Group, a specialty vehicles manufacturer with 29 vehicle brands, including, Fleetwood RV, Holiday Rambler, Monaco Coach, American Coach, and Midwest Automotive Designs Fleetwood RV, Champion Bus, E-ONE Fire and Horton.

I have to agree with Chuck on this one. Foretravel was a leader in the industry, building a quality rv, on the revolutionary 8 outboard air bag chassis. Others, choosing to choose components from Spartan, Gillig, and BFG torsion suspension would have their own specific shortcomings, not from an intentional cheapened design, however from not having the benefit of hindsight.

Over the years, on my side, I've had the advantage of hindsight, seeing the shortcomings of many mfs. This goes back to manufacturers from the first rv I retailed, in SF, CA, in the early 70s, a motorized rv, a Revcon, and then a 1972 Silver Streak aluminum travel trailer in 1975 in San Jose, CA. I was around for the rotting out of the wet bay in Spartan chassis 1995 American Eagles, the soft floors that needed replacing in Winnebago diesels, the too short diesel pusers from various mfgs, the collapsed aluminum roofs in Monaco rvs, the poorly designed heating systems and other quality issue's that lead to their demise of Alpine luxury diesel pushera, the complications of design issue's of Travel Supreme that eventually lead to the mfgs selling out. I had over the years customers cussing out Newell, Bluebird, and Newmar quality issues. I've had this advantage.

I choose a Foretrave to be the best quality rv I could purchase in 2017 to retire in, meeting my budget, requirements, and needs. I did this after after experiencing the above and after owning many rvs and rv diesel pushers. I did this thinking I'd have to replace the basement sub structure. I did not know that a previous owner had already addressed this properly.
This posible repair, I considered, easy issue to rectify.

I see bigdog's point, I also believe Foretravel did this not intentionally, as the above mfgs did not intentionally have their shortcomings. I still believe after three years of ownership I made the right decision for my budget, needs, and experience.

We all have purchased a structure that travels down the road in a constant state similar to that of an earthquake. Ever hear of a water leak or other issues after a quake?

Bigdog, I believe, has had many and different experiences, that have given him credibility and a sense of what perfection can be. I respect his comments and look forward to our unique forum complimenting our Foretravel expectations, understanding, and ownership.

https://youtu.be/ad6jiLqAguU

https://youtu.be/-lGTzJxXeCk

https://youtu.be/iT_0O-7q-r8

https://youtu.be/iCKKlHqL0D0

Re: Did Foretravel cheapen out on things? [split from Re: fuel lines]

Reply #13 – July 07, 2021, 11:08:29 am

A total of 22,138 Cessna 150s were built in the United States between 1958 and 1977. 19 years of production with only minor modifications. Of all the Cessna 150 models, the 1966 model year was the most plentiful with 3,067 1966 Cessna 150s produced. This was the first year the aircraft featured a swept tail fin, increased baggage area and electrically operated flaps the only major change in 19 years. So yes you can purchase a parts book with every nut bolt and Dzus fastener listed.

I think of Fore family Foretravels as what they are, limited production catalogue bespoke motorhomes. Catalogue bespoke? The closest industry that I can think of which offers as example is the pipe organ industry. You can go to the Andover Organ Company in Andover, Massachusetts, and order yourself a practice organ from their catalogue.

Andover Organ Company :: New Organs :: Opus 117

And then they custom build it for your home. Excuse me, for that much money, residence.

I recently repaired a factory flaw in my shower skylight. Stuff happens in limited production vehicles.

Re: Did Foretravel cheapen out on things? [split from Re: fuel lines]

Reply #14 – July 07, 2021, 11:48:59 am

Thank goodness we don't have to maintain like a Boeing. Every coach out there would be unsustainable imagine having a 10k annual inspection and required updates. I'll keep cleaning stripping priming and sealing as I can afford. Good enough for me
Scott

Re: Did Foretravel cheapen out on things? [split from Re: fuel lines]

Reply #15 – July 07, 2021, 11:52:04 am

If I had the bulkhead issue, I might be more sensitive to it. But our coach was repaired, welded and done overkill, so I don't think about it much. It wasn't rusty, it was a Texas coach, then a California coach. Bolts just failed.

As most have mentioned above, any shortcoming by Foretravel, was not done because of lack of care. Ray Fore took any new model coach, and used it for months before it went into production, to find any issues. Mostly it was useability, light switch here, a light here etc.

I always tell people it's like putting your home on a trailer, and dragging it around the US. And secondly, "You have an RV, so you have a problem, you just don't know what it is yet" They all have issues, some worse then others.

I could go on about needing to rebuild my Cat engine at 119K miles. Is that Caterpillars fault for a oversight? Did they do this intentionally? Mine wasn't the only one, and a FT with a Cat engine gave you a 200K warranty, and demanded a higher price tag. Is that FT's fault?

Everything mechanical made by man has issues. How many control boards need replacing, and the customer always has to pay for the " New upgraded version"

I love our coach, despite all the dramas we had.
Chris

Re: Did Foretravel cheapen out on things? [split from Re: fuel lines]

Reply #16 – July 07, 2021, 12:16:50 pm

But let's take a look at the famous Beechcraft Bonanza. An upscale aircraft at about the same price as a Foretravel. In 2006, they cost about $700,000 and a little over 100 were built in that year. They crossed all the T's and dotted all the I's as far as every little part and documentation goes. And this is for a very limited production aircraft.

No one is suggesting our coaches are Boeings but how much additional would a coat of paint cost as Bigdog mentions in his post? An extra employee for the manuals? Some steel for the front cap so the windshields don't crack and move around? Even a little bit of front cap tubing would be better than none.

But 95% of RVs are much worse. In fact, terrible in construction and documentation. To avoid a $1200 recycle fee, the SOB we had was stripped and then taken to the junk yard. I have photos of the steel structure that was left. Just a couple dozen small, thin wall square tubing pieces sticking up from a Dodge frame. The structure provided almost no protection for occupants.

Our U300 is almost like owning a Jaguar. Love it until you find something wrong, fix it, curse the designer but still love it regardless of it's faults.

Pierce

Re: Did Foretravel cheapen out on things? [split from Re: fuel lines]

Reply #17 – July 07, 2021, 02:10:31 pm

Quote from: Jack Lewis – July 07, 2021, 07:23:13 am

I also believe Foretravel did this not intentionally

Jack, Hope things are well with you and the DW way down south in Brazil. After you guys get back I hope we can meet up with you two again.

I'm a bit conflicted on that quote. While I don't think Foretravel acted with anything even close to malice. They most certainly intentionally decided to not paint the support structure. It's not a flaw of the design. It's not near as technical a matter as a truck engine breaking or an Aircraft. Minus the corrosion issue, These bulkhead/sub-frames seem to be immensely strong. I doubt that there has ever been a failure from the design itself.

I'm talking about not taking the simple VERY SIMPLE step of spraying a bit of paint on a frame that has just been welded and has yet to see any added items mounted to it. What a great time to spend $20 on paint and an hour(ish) of labor and an hour or so of drying time. So what is that in relation to the total cost to the end user? A few hundred dollars? No reason to not do it as it would have been such a cheap & easy step to have accomplished. And their reputation has a preeminent coach builder would have been even greater.

Just think of the brochure copy. "We at Foretravel are so dedicated to building the finest coach. We went the extra mile and even painted the hidden sub-frame to guard against even the remotest possibility of future corrosion"

As always, I find it interesting to hear everyone's take on this issue. Even though the deed has been done long ago and I don't have Mr. Peabody's "way back machine" to go back and change Mr. Fore's mind on the issue.

Re: Did Foretravel cheapen out on things? [split from Re: fuel lines]

Reply #18 – July 07, 2021, 05:47:23 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – July 07, 2021, 12:16:50 pm

But let's take a look at the famous Beechcraft Bonanza. An upscale aircraft at about the same price as a Foretravel. In 2006, they cost about $700,000 and a little over 100 were built in that year. They crossed all the T's and dotted all the I's as far as every little part and documentation goes. And this is for a very limited production aircraft.
Pierce

Pierce, just to be a d*&k here, the Beech Bonanza was originally type certified in 1947(ish) and every one since then has been built, with modifications, on that original TC.

Re: Did Foretravel cheapen out on things? [split from Re: fuel lines]

Reply #19 – July 07, 2021, 07:07:17 pm

Quote from: Old Toolmaker – July 07, 2021, 05:47:23 pm

Pierce, just to be a d*&k here, the Bech Bonanza was originally type certified in 1947(ish) and every one since then has been built, with modifications, on that original TC.

Exactly! But it's a very low production aircraft. The point I'm making is that it does not have to be a high volume item to have lots of employees, big profit and only then does it get done correctly. The Beech engineers/designers were able to get it right from the get go without making a lot of mistakes. I had a D-50 Twin Bonanza for many years and never found a design flaw.

I never thought Foretravel intentionally cut corners. I just don't think some at the drawing board were up to the level they needed to be. Others were brilliant with the interior design, cabinets, choice of carpets, etc. The frame guy dropped the ball in the front and rear. Think many manufactures copied the side radiator on the GM buses. Problem was that GM put the engine in as a sidewinder so the fan was direct drive. Others have same side radiator with a fore and aft engine placement and a ridiculously complex and problem plagued pump/fan arrangement. Europeans and Latin Americans used the correct rear frame design so they could run a side to side radiator even in 96 inch coaches.

Pierce

Re: Did Foretravel cheapen out on things? [split from Re: fuel lines]

Reply #20 – July 07, 2021, 07:48:12 pm

Pierce, I would go so far as to say that I think "cheapen out" is probably to harsh a term. I'd say as the cost of painting the bulkhead area was so low to begin with. I would call it "being lazy" more than anything.

Re: Did Foretravel cheapen out on things? [split from Re: fuel lines]

Reply #21 – July 07, 2021, 07:57:24 pm

So, knowing that many of these aircraft were going to be operated in corrosive costal environments, did they paint or otherwise corrosion protect the interior of wings and spars during production? Or was it left to future owners to deal with corrosion protection?

What USA production vehicles came with properly painted and undercoated undercarriages?

Re: Did Foretravel cheapen out on things? [split from Re: fuel lines]

Reply #22 – July 07, 2021, 08:22:04 pm

Thru years of failures they have become very proactive. Every flight they get cold soaked and accumulate condensation apron reaching lower altitudes. Corrosion control is a huge issue, then you add in lavatories and baggage bins. Also about twenty years old and cost to maintain a active jet becomes non cost effective and they go to work somewhere else in the world under way less than desirable conditions

Re: Did Foretravel cheapen out on things? [split from Re: fuel lines]

Reply #23 – July 07, 2021, 09:13:28 pm

Perhaps if the government had sunk as much money into recreational vehicle technology as was put into planes ?
Oh that's right RVs seldom if ever go to war, so that would explain the planes having all the hard work done.

Re: Did Foretravel cheapen out on things? [split from Re: fuel lines]

Reply #24 – July 07, 2021, 09:21:36 pm

Quote from: dsd – July 07, 2021, 08:22:04 pm

Thru years of failures they have become very proactive. Every flight they get cold soaked and accumulate condensation apron reaching lower altitudes. Corrosion control is a huge issue, then you add in lavatories and baggage bins. Also about twenty years old and cost to maintain a active jet becomes non cost effective and they go to work somewhere else in the world under way less than desirable conditions

And I don't know of any aircraft that fills it wings with water absorbing foam like our coaches are under the baggage and water utility bays.

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