Engine fan delete?

Topic: Engine fan delete? (Read 6523 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #50 – January 19, 2022, 12:05:50 pm

Engineering wise , hydraulic powered fans may have been more durable or cheaper than electric. The high flow brushless fans were very expensive in 1993. It's likely that the continuous duty rating was under the design parameters.

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #51 – January 19, 2022, 12:20:32 pm

The whole engineering concept was bogus. Just copy the Euro and Mex buses with their simple fan arrangements. No need for hydraulics. GM had it right with their sidewinder for many years. And with your '88 GV, incredible that the nose of the coach was ignored. Hope your pioneer efforts work well. Will be in your corner.

Pierce

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #52 – January 19, 2022, 12:25:19 pm

I've found shrouding to be very helpful on pulling air, as in the air is coming through the radiator and then through the fans or not at all.

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #53 – April 01, 2022, 02:43:30 pm

I'm Old and slow and the shop has been busy..
Update . fans are installed .
Autozone has a 40 amp relays that should replace all of ther HELLA style 4 post relays around our bus.
part # RL44. about 6 $ .
I have 2 running the fans, triggered by the fan switches.

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #54 – April 01, 2022, 06:53:22 pm

Quote from: Protech Racing – April 01, 2022, 02:43:30 pm

I'm Old and slow and the shop has been busy..
Update . fans are installed .
Autozone has a 40 amp relays that should replace all of ther HELLA style 4 post relays around our bus.
part # RL44. about 6 $ .
I have 2 running the fans, triggered by the fan switches.

How about a report on how they work cooling the coach? Side or rear radiator?

Pierce

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #55 – April 02, 2022, 08:35:28 am

Quote from: Protech Racing – January 19, 2022, 12:05:50 pm

Engineering wise , hydraulic powered fans may have been more durable or cheaper than electric. The high flow brushless fans were very expensive in 1993. It's likely that the continuous duty rating was under the design parameters.

The "high flow brushless fan" motor was doable in 1993. It was the electronics to make the damn thing run that was expensive. Back then variable frequency drive on board development was a career choice.

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #56 – April 02, 2022, 09:06:12 am

Now there is a huge range of choice in fan drives, would be pretty straightforward to build an Arduino or similar control with temp inputs from multiple points (water, cac, retarder oil etc.) to control dc fan drives. Could be as simple as controlling four relays for four fans, or elaborate as variable speed drives. Figuring out temp curves and appropriate responses are the detail devils.

Really looking forward to seeing how the electric fan setup performs in general, we're all cheering for ya!

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #57 – April 02, 2022, 10:26:32 am

Quote from: Chuck Pearson – April 02, 2022, 09:06:12 am

Now there is a huge range of choice in fan drives, would be pretty straightforward to build an Arduino or similar control with temp inputs from multiple points (water, cac, retarder oil etc.) to control dc fan drives. Could be as simple as controlling four relays for four fans, or elaborate as variable speed drives. Figuring out temp curves and appropriate responses are the detail devils.

Really looking forward to seeing how the electric fan setup performs in general, we're all cheering for ya!

And it's not that hard to go commercial. When I want to automate something I either go to automationdirect.com or if it's a big project order their catalog, because like, I'm old and set in my ways, and I like turning pages and using paper bookmarks.

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #58 – April 02, 2022, 11:18:26 am

At this point , I am comparing airflow of the stock fan to the electric's
It's amazing how the engine door restricts the air exit . Also the fans show more reversion than I like .
Today I will make the door pass air easier , add a shroud to the shrouds.
Recheck air flow of each system .
I am committed to making this work after looking at others success with regards to fuel use and applied power .

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #59 – April 02, 2022, 01:49:50 pm

Bottom pic is starting to round the corners on the door.

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #60 – April 02, 2022, 02:56:04 pm

Quote from: Chuck Pearson – April 02, 2022, 09:06:12 am

Now there is a huge range of choice in fan drives, would be pretty straightforward to build an Arduino or similar control with temp inputs from multiple points (water, cac, retarder oil etc.) to control dc fan drives. Could be as simple as controlling four relays for four fans, or elaborate as variable speed drives. Figuring out temp curves and appropriate responses are the detail devils.

Really looking forward to seeing how the electric fan setup performs in general, we're all cheering for ya!

Thanks. I like the simple way , most of the time . This uses 2 separate systems. Each having a temp sender like this. Auto zone fan temp sensor - Google Search
These run a 40 amp relay , that run each fan set . Both sets are wired to the coach batteries' circuit and the feed is from my extra Delco one wire alternator post . Each fan set has it's own 50 amp breaker and 40 amp relay. I get very little fan speed increase when adding power wires or grounds . So the wire size /amp potential appears sufficient
Both fans run regardless of the engine running . The only trigger is temp .

At this point I have the single right side fan set at about 130* This should run almost all of the time and cool the bedroom and evacuate some air from the engine compartment.
The two fan set, left side, will be set to come on at 188- 195 ish. This is a few drees warmer than the running temp as is is now. Down the road reads a hair under 180 on my dash gauge . A tiny bit warmer may burn the fuel a touch better. may not. Science says that it will make more torque a bit warmer.

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #61 – April 02, 2022, 05:37:07 pm

The fans need to be off the radiator with shrouds that includes the complete radiator assy. What you are doing may work a little bit but it won't work a lot.

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #62 – April 02, 2022, 10:24:30 pm

Right . It may need little flaps to shut off the reverse flow , like some cars use. The flow is best with the fans up tight at this point. I have to roll it down th e road some more and video the air tell tales.
Photo Sharing. Your Photos Look Better Here.
Like my Race truck . The tell tale behind the cab, above the radiator showing flow from the door scoop through the radiator and up under the wing.
If there is some vacuum behind the radiator , it should work.

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #63 – April 02, 2022, 11:36:51 pm

Quote from: Protech Racing – April 02, 2022, 02:56:04 pm

At this point I have the single right side fan set at about 130* This should run almost all of the time and cool the bedroom and evacuate some air from the engine compartment.
The two fan set, left side, will be set to come on at 188- 195 ish. This is a few drees warmer than the running temp as is is now. Down the road reads a hair under 180 on my dash gauge . A tiny bit warmer may burn the fuel a touch better. may not. Science says that it will make more torque a bit warmer.

When we replaced our electronic fan controller with a wax valve, the fans were set to spin up to full speed at 180 degrees, but were idle until then. This was fine for coolant temperature, but when starting up (especially on hot days or when we hit highway speeds right away), it would allow the intake manifold temperature to get too high and throw a warning code. The solution was to add a needle valve to allow the fans to spin at low speed until coolant hit the 180 mark. Haven't had a problem since and intake manifold temperature now stays just a few degrees above ambient air temperature.

Your right fan may be enough to keep things cool enough that intake manifold temperature isn't an issue for you. But, if it is, might need to spin up one of the left fans at a little lower temperature if you seen the intake manifold temperature getting above 110 or 120 degrees.

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #64 – April 03, 2022, 10:52:40 pm

It sure seems like a full shroud across the outflow side of the radiator would increase efficiency. Wouldn't that put the whole radiator area into play with less inlet restriction than having individual fans cooling four circular sections of the rad? Or would that cause fans to poach suction from each other?
Just a thought, and I recognize that fluid dynamics are not necessarily intutive.

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #65 – April 04, 2022, 09:46:53 am

Quote from: Chuck Pearson – April 03, 2022, 10:52:40 pm

It sure seems like a full shroud across the outflow side of the radiator would increase efficiency. Wouldn't that put the whole radiator area into play with less inlet restriction than having individual fans cooling four circular sections of the rad? Or would that cause fans to poach suction from each other?
Just a thought, and I recognize that fluid dynamics are not necessarily intutive.

Each fan should have its own separated shroud otherwise the fan next to it that is not running with be a lower draw pressure and recirculate uncooled air. Ive seen were they install rubber sheet check flapper valve to prevent that recirculating. Each shroud can have its own individual piece of real estate too draw air threw. Again no free ride
Scott

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #66 – April 04, 2022, 10:06:05 am

This is where variable speed fans would come into play. One large shroud covering complete radiator, for 100% of the radiator fin area is used, with all 3 or xx fans running but at a low speed unless higher speed is needed where they all ramp up. I think that setup would be more efficient in total.

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #67 – April 04, 2022, 11:26:07 am

Some notes. The Ted's Garage guy is my twin .. Same cars, bikes and bus thoughts.
It appears that I need more CFM . I ordered a set of the Chevy fans. each is about 8K CFM .
My 14 in fans will go under the chev fans . They will come on first and move some air most of the time.
Next, the door slows down the air a lot . I will finish thinning the slats today .
The return on Investment(ROI) is large. At about 50$ per 1000, miles at 1 MPG. .5MPG would be enough IMHO. The cash outlay is about 500$
The best install would be to exchange the 27in solid fan for an electric , pusher through the same shroud . That is more difficult for me and puts all of the eggs in one fan basket . Doable tho.
The next most efficient would be a complete shroud of the exit air as many have mentioned. I could make a carbon enclosure, given enough time . The actual install will have the fans providing reversion control .

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #68 – April 04, 2022, 12:03:24 pm

Quote from: Protech Racing – April 04, 2022, 11:26:07 am

Some notes. The Ted's Garage guy is my twin .. Same cars, bikes and bus thoughts.
It appears that I need more CFM . I ordered a set of the Chevy fans. each is about 8K CFM .
My 14 in fans will go under the chev fans . They will come on first and move some air most of the time.
Next, the door slows down the air a lot . I will finish thinning the slats today .
The return on Investment(ROI) is large. At about 50$ per 1000, miles at 1 MPG. .5MPG would be enough IMHO. The cash outlay is about 500$
The best install would be to exchange the 27in solid fan for an electric , pusher through the same shroud . That is more difficult for me and puts all of the eggs in one fan basket . Doable tho.
The next most efficient would be a complete shroud of the exit air as many have mentioned. I could make a carbon enclosure, given enough time . The actual install will have the fans providing reversion control .

Yes its difficult to remove enough BTUs. My current project will have twin cooling fans. There as big as I can go and draw stupid amounts of power at idle speeds. I genuinely hope they will be satisfactory in the middle of summer at 115 degs to both run air conditioning and move the vehicle. Dual big alternators. Fans are continuous duty. They make bigger but are not continuous duty. Please post links to the 8k fans. I would prefer more.
16 INCH ULTRA ELECTRIC 165 WATT COOLING FAN FFD16-3000CFM UPTO 25MPH WIND...
Scott

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #69 – April 04, 2022, 12:43:27 pm

I admire the effort to explore alternatives. I owned a 1951 Chevy Sports Coupe. When I replaced my 1954 235 six cylinder with a 98 fuel injected 350 engine from a 3/4 ton truck I was told it would need a custom radiator. I installed the largest after market puller electric fan I could find with a built in shroud on the existing radiator. Covered most of radiator core. Had to cut down water pump shaft to make it fit. The engine had a 140 amp alternator and the fan took a 70 amp relay. Manual transmission. It worked! Original set up did not have a shroud of any kind, at least not when I bought it.

When I replaced my generator insulation on my 8KW Isuzu generator it was not as thick and left a one inch air gap around the stock shroud. Generator over heated. Closed the shroud gap with pipe insulation and it worked fine.

Controlling air flow around fans and radiator will be critical and is probably half the engineering challenge of this conversion. Rear and side radiators will pose different challenges.

I recently saw a commercial bus with what appeared to be five or six huge electric fans all with integral shrouds on a side radiator. The fans were clearly visible through the exterior grill, so wide spacing of grill slats. Fans appeared to cover all available surface of radiator- a wall of fans. I'm guessing these fans require a dedicated 300 amp alternator at minimum.

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #70 – April 04, 2022, 12:44:09 pm

Radiator Cooling Fan For 2009-2013 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 | eBay
These. But ordered from Autozone . about 200$ GM fan package. Rated about 10K per set .
I just opened the box. Look good. Made in Thailand.

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #71 – April 04, 2022, 01:25:32 pm

Quote from: Protech Racing – April 04, 2022, 12:44:09 pm

Radiator Cooling Fan For 2009-2013 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 | eBay
These. But ordered from Autozone . about 200$ GM fan package. Rated about 10K per set .
I just opened the box. Look good. Made in Thailand.

Those sound almost too good to be true. Looking forward to how they work.

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #72 – April 04, 2022, 03:20:20 pm

Mo powa
They almost fit.
Remove the flanges
Remove a tiny half moon on the lower edge of the bus X 2.
Make some brackets.
Might work.
Wil check on closing out the open edges of the rad .

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #73 – April 04, 2022, 07:24:16 pm

Runs .
I like this package a lot . I closed out the gaps at the sides and top. The fans push a lot of air.

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #74 – April 05, 2022, 08:57:42 am

I see these fans are on the back, they push or pull?

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