Engine fan delete?

Topic: Engine fan delete? (Read 6525 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #75 – April 05, 2022, 10:16:36 am

Pull air out of the rear.
I will check the wires for temp, check amps and power supply . , set the temp controls. Road test. Tidy wiring.

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #76 – April 05, 2022, 10:26:10 am

Air flow is from FRONT to BACK.

So, they pull.

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #77 – April 05, 2022, 11:35:21 am

I wonder how pulling hot air over the electric motors will effect their longevity. AC electric fans on cars push cool air past the motors. Assuming that the air has to travel to the rear from the engine compartment?

Pierce

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #78 – April 05, 2022, 11:43:22 am

This install duplicates the OE install
The caddy fans are behind the rad.

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #79 – April 06, 2022, 04:50:17 pm

Removed the metal fan bolts yesterday. Took about 2 hrs. Loctite and some electrolysis corrosion. The fan would not come off of the hub. Sprayed it with ATF and let it sit to this morning. Put one bolt back in and gave some tappy tap love . It must weigh about 20# . Dropped the alt belts off for space and wiggled it out.
Started the bus, with the bed cover up and the back door open, it never got the T stat open. Closed the doors and revved it up enough to get a little heat in the system and adjusted one fan to come on really low . Set the other temp switch just a little above the first and went for a ride.
The idle speed is up about 100+to 800 from 650 ish .
Way quiet. Much quieter .
Lots faster in the lower gears . I made some WOT pulls up to 60 ish to get the trans temp up . Set the higher fan to come on at about 180 +-.
Its 86* degrees right now . Not really hot for Florida but any issues should show up IMHO .
Ran around the block and set the upper fan a little higher. The low fan has been running 100% . There is some cross air flow with one fan on. The tell tales suck into and towards the running fan.
Made a few more WOT pulls through the gears . Temp goes to about 180 - 185 maybe . The high fan comes on and the temp is stable . Slow down and stop, the high fan goes off. So the system is not gaining heat.
The IR heat gun shows the rear bumper at 130* at the hot point . Wow . The engine door is also hot to the touch .
The low fan relay and breaker are warm to the touch, about 125* . I added some aluminum tape to heat sink the relays . I have 2 spares . I will order a set of breakers for spares. All of the wiring stays cool. The house batteries stayed up.
I need to build a recovery cap and bottle that works along with a new cap .
I will also thin the door slats some more .
Total success at this point . Will it make a WOT , 3rd gear hill? Seems like it should . We'll see. I can see a solid MPG possible .

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #80 – April 06, 2022, 11:48:33 pm

Man, that sounds promising. Looking at the fans in ad it appears they counterrotate, I wonder what the thinking is on this? Have to admit, when I made my prior comments I didn't realize it was a rear radiator setup, was thinking about my side mount rad. Seems like the side mounts would have the advantage of not cooling the rad with engine heated air. The large bump in idle speed is a big deal for sure, likely you'll see a corresponding increase in efficiency.
Congradulations, you're now on the bleeding edge of diy cooling mods. Appreciate your sharing of documentation and process details.

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #81 – April 07, 2022, 07:30:31 am

Is the high idle speed going to cause problems in the future? Will it keep the transmission from going in gear? I am assuming it would not be too hard to lower the idle speed with the non computer engines and that the computer engines will automatically keep the idle speed the same.

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #82 – April 07, 2022, 08:12:24 am

I can set the idle speed down. I will do that as well as set the valves next week.

If I was told of the performance increase , I would call BS. But having run it , I will add fans and electric power to make this work. Nothing short of amazing .
Keep in mind that my power train is the worst of the bunch with the solid fan.
The side rad with hydro drive should be almost as good. Minus the hydro power losses. The Wanderlodge looks like the same era buses had some sort of fan control on the engine driven fan. This did not.
I already have a revision . I will add two low power fans on the bottom , engine side to cool that section and reduce the bumper temp.

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #83 – April 07, 2022, 09:03:14 am

Way back at the beginning, maybe even before this post subject started I questioned removing my engine fan because I have two large electric fans on the bumper side of the radiator and also a fan on a separate desert cooler transmission cooler.
Granted, I have the under powered (for the 36' coach) Detroit Diesel 8.2 Turbo-charged V8 engine, but I had already had an increase in power and MPG(slight) by going to a straight pipe and eliminating the 35 gallon OEM muffler.
Nice to see what I considered a possibility to an actual working process and be able to show the resulting increases.
Guess my idea wasn't so bad. I sometimes think about taking the non-functioning fans (same as the ones on the rear & in my pics) off the front AC condenser and put them on the engine side of the rear radiator

THANK YOU

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #84 – April 07, 2022, 11:04:49 am

That's why the Euros and Latins went with just a belt drive to the fore/aft mounted radiators and GM went with the sidewinder engine in the 4xxx series with side radiator. Hydraulic fans are an incredibly stupid, stupid idea. For us, motors and a pump to fail and leave us stuck by the side of the road with obsolete units. They also create heat and rob the engine of power and your pocketbook too. I'm betting one mpg in summer driving in our mountains. Good for you Mike! On a GV with a 2 cycle, the pump can easily be replaced with an alternator and the front AC condenser replaced with a radiator(s) using the heater hoses.

Pierce

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #85 – April 07, 2022, 04:08:02 pm

I looked into running lines to the nose. I used hard plastic for the race truck to remote mount the radiator . Lots of failure point additions. Plus you have to get them a long ways and move the water a long ways. Seemed easier to add fans .

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #86 – April 07, 2022, 08:25:02 pm

Quote from: Protech Racing – April 07, 2022, 04:08:02 pm

I looked into running lines to the nose. I used hard plastic for the race truck to remote mount the radiator . Lots of failure point additions. Plus you have to get them a long ways and move the water a long ways. Seemed easier to add fans .

Several others including Brett, have used the existing heater hose to bring coolant to an aux radiator up front. I agree, it's a difficult job to remove the existing heater hose and replace it with a larger diameter hose/pipe to cut the friction loss. Their front aux radiator plus fans on the rear side radiator may be enough to eliminate the hydraulic system. So, on our coach, it's probably 25 feet each way. A 50 foot garden hose can flow a fair amount of water so the addition of a couple of radiators up front is cheap with a huge temp difference in the returning coolant. U300s come with a aux pump back at the engine to aid the flow to the front.

Pierce

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #87 – April 14, 2022, 01:32:34 pm

A couple of notes. MY 87-88 ORED had no recovery radiator cap nor bottle . This worked fine when it ran at 180 . Needed coolant maybe every 3-4 months.
I swapped the cap to a NAPA sourced #703-1418 . It has 2 rubber seals and is 7# rated bleed off.
I added a 1/2 gallon bottle with hose into the bottom.

Some careful work with a flat tiny file to remove the radiator neck edges helps to allow turning the cap to the stop . About 120* Not 80.
This allows me to add almost 2 gallons of coolant , and should retain most of it .
I dont think that the system ever had any running coolant pressure. I'm sure that the 7# will find all of the old leaks waiting for love.

I also will add a low power fan under the bumper to cool that area and add some air control there.

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #88 – April 14, 2022, 08:04:11 pm

There is a pressure side to the radiator, or water flowing from the water pump to the radiator. There is a suction side to the radiator, water flowing from the radiator to the water pump.

Stay off the pressure side with the radiator cap, any fill points with pressure caps, and overflow bottle and you will be much happier.

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #89 – April 29, 2022, 12:51:39 pm

The removed all metal fan weighs 22#.

So, soon, i will have the solar panels charging my coach batteries, the batteries powering the electric fans.
So, in effect I have a solar aided RV.

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #90 – June 15, 2022, 10:44:24 pm

Update: first trip with 6000 # trailer in 97 degree heat.
As prior noted the engine door blocks an excessive amount of air . I narrowed the flat faced slats almost 50% , hoping that it would allow enough air to pass . It does not. I had to prop the door open and the running temp stayed under 205 . I will remove the door for the trip home .
I have more air control to do to improve reserve capacity. Works as is but I would like the engine to be able to stay at 190- or so. It sits on 198 as it is with some hard pulls at 205?
I know stuff last longer at 190 , so will fix it.
The rear bumper blocks about 30% of the lower radiator and that area will be optimized with an air dam directly under the rad and some considerations for the air to exit cleaner .
The fuel use is still being calculated but the improvement is substantial so far.
Hard numbers post trip .
These fans also consume a good bit of my solar power and I will move towards 400 watt panels as cash allows. The ac uses a lot and these fans use a lot.

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #91 – June 19, 2022, 01:06:36 am

A radiator up front using the exiting heater core lines and an electric booster pump will get a lot of free air cooling (no fans needed).

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #92 – June 22, 2022, 01:56:14 pm

I put the metal fan back on this morning . I ran WOT , 2nd gear out of Virginia mountains and it ran almost 215. Too hot for me .
I have to fetch a Super V race car in the mountains of Pennsylvania , run across the state in the hills , and make a drop and then head south next week.

I will build an air control /fan box, for the lower half of the radiator at my shop . The air blockage is pretty bad and I dont want to make a shot in the dark and make a mistake . My engine runs too well to mess it up.
The fuel MPG is 10.5 for the last 1200 miles or so. Up from 8.8 . I still cant believe how much faster and frugal it is without the fan .

Other notes. The RT 81 was so rough that one of my solar panels broke the retainer screws and it made horrendous noises inside. Backed out the screws and installed over size today.
The air dryer purge valve has a leak , causing a cycle every 5-6 min. Ordered a new NAPA purge kit. Will install tomorrow .

Edit ; The air issue of continual cycling .losing pressure on one tank ,appears to be the main line check valve. It works OK as is but will get cleaned or replaced at home .
The dual tire balance line fittings came loose and I lost 12 # of air on one set . Snugged up and checked.

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #93 – June 23, 2022, 11:21:26 am

I have a '95 U-240 with 2 hydraulic fans. I have a switch on my dash to change between hi and low speeds fans. I can hear the difference between hi and low real easy. When I switch from low speed to hi speed, I can not tell the difference by the engine performance. My little 250 hp kitty Cat 3116 would show the loss of 50hp. On the other side going from hi speed fans to low speed fans does not increase power at all. IMO I think 50hp must be a wrong number!

Pat

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #94 – June 24, 2022, 02:48:14 pm

Quote from: pthurman48 – June 23, 2022, 11:21:26 am

I have a '95 U-240 with 2 hydraulic fans. I have a switch on my dash to change between hi and low speeds fans. I can hear the difference between hi and low real easy. When I switch from low speed to hi speed, I can not tell the difference by the engine performance. My little 250 hp kitty Cat 3116 would show the loss of 50hp. On the other side going from hi speed fans to low speed fans does not increase power at all. IMO I think 50hp must be a wrong number!

Pat

I agree that 50 HP sounds high. As far as I can tell the required power use of my fan is significant . over 1.5 MPG and quite a bit of speed. All of the data online shows 40 - 50 real. Cars with solid fans on the dyno show 30 HP loss. .
Anything that can activate the fan to an as required power loss will be an improvement . This has shown to be a huge improvement so far and will be once the engineering is done.

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #95 – June 25, 2022, 08:52:35 am

Quote from: Protech Racing – June 24, 2022, 02:48:14 pm

Anything that can activate the fan to an as required power loss will be an improvement . This has shown to be a huge improvement so far and will be once the engineering is done.

A programmable controller for existing hydraulic fan setups would seem to be fairly straightforward using off the shelf parts. I know folks have had problems with some of the legacy controllers and moved to the wax valve which is reliable. But if you want granular control of fan speed this is what it will take. Controllable pitch blades on fan would be another (very expensive) possibility but good contol is critical for any efficient setup.

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #96 – June 25, 2022, 10:46:08 am

No issues with the fans. They are on thermostat switches and work as engineered.
The issue is that bottom 30% of the radiator is air hindered .
I will clean up and control that area .

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #97 – July 06, 2022, 01:07:16 pm

Ran the return trip with all of the fans working . Pulled flat down through the mountains of Pennsylvania and WV. Never got warmer than 190 .
The metal fan slows it down power off , engine braking , quite a bit better than removed. I read that on the wanderlodge post and dismissed it , but the brakes are needed more with fan removed . ESp in the hills.
Power up the hill is also reduced of course. 40 -50 Hp does not seem unreasonable . It is a lot faster removed.
MPG went from a solid 10.5 to 8.5 - 9 with adding the fan back on. Over the 3000mile total , 1500 each way.
This MPG is towing a light 2 car open trailer at around 7500#. both ways within 1000#.
My running speed is 2200 RPM and about 62mph. faster on the down hills and slower up .
Cruise cost about 1.5 MPG as it coast down hills and request WOT uphills.

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #98 – July 28, 2022, 08:05:52 pm

Update
Added air control under the bumper as well as 4 small fans .
These fans will blow air under the bumper and through a set of holes along the bottom of the bumper.
Now the radiator is fully shrouded with a total of 6 fans. Each pair has its own power and controller. Solar powers all of them in addition to a one wire GM alternator .

Re: Engine fan delete?

Reply #99 – July 28, 2022, 08:40:09 pm

Mike,

I can pull any alternator off cars or PUs from late model wrecks at Pick N Pull for under $30. Which one wire alternator do you recommend and why? I will be pulling the AC compressor and installing the alternator in it's place.

Thanks Mike,

Pierce

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