Takes Three Cranks to Start

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Takes Three Cranks to Start

December 11, 2021, 12:09:02 pm

It always takes three cranks to start now. I'm stumped.

This started at the beginning of a 2400 mile trip. The second morning out, we stopped at a truck stop and had the oil changed. Fuel filters were done as well. I watched them work and they filled the filters with diesel before spinning them on. My oil level is just a little over full.

Immediately after the oil change, the three cranking problems started and the solenoid problem started.

Once started, we run just fine (after replacing the solenoid).

I have no fuel leaks and the fuel lines are 18 months old. Seems like the 2200 miles since the change would have worked out any priming issues.

This is the M11 Celect+, so I know there are lots of things that need to be satisfied before the ECU gives permission to start to the engine. But, I'm thinking it might be something simple since it just started (no pun intended) happening.

The battery terminals and cables all the way to the starter have been recently removed and wire brushed (after this started). They're tight and clean. The starter is new and turning at the right speed. The starter turns at the same speed on the first crank as the third, so I don't think it's current/voltage related. Engine preheat/no engine preheat and ambient outside temperature don't affect it.

Ideas or is this where I need Cummins to put a code reader on it?

Re: Takes Three Cranks to Start

Reply #1 – December 11, 2021, 12:29:22 pm

Which secondary filter and pump does your coach have? Fuel Screen?

Re: Takes Three Cranks to Start

Reply #2 – December 11, 2021, 12:30:48 pm

I install my fuel filters empty and let the purge pump clear all of them. It's its' Job. If there is a fuel vacuum leak and air is being drawn in the pump pressure will be reduced during start till the pump can over come the loss

Re: Takes Three Cranks to Start

Reply #3 – December 11, 2021, 12:32:58 pm

One of your fuel filters may have a minor leak. Check them out. If they seem tightened correctly you may have to verify that your mechanic removed old gasket before mounting a new filter. Two gaskets may prime and then still have a minor leak that would cause the problem you reported.

jk

Re: Takes Three Cranks to Start

Reply #4 – December 11, 2021, 12:39:59 pm

Quote from: kimosabe99 – December 11, 2021, 12:32:58 pm

One of your fuel filters may have a minor leak. Check them out.

X2. When a new problem pops up, always go back and check the last thing done to the engine. I learned this the hard way.

Re: Takes Three Cranks to Start

Reply #5 – December 11, 2021, 12:44:18 pm

Quote from: dsd – December 11, 2021, 12:29:22 pm

Which secondary filter and pump does your coach have? Fuel Screen?

The filter is a Fleetguard FS1212. No idea on the pump. Where is it? Ditto, the fuel screen.

Re: Takes Three Cranks to Start

Reply #6 – December 11, 2021, 12:47:11 pm

Quote from: dsd – December 11, 2021, 12:30:48 pm

I install my fuel filters empty and let the purge pump clear all of them. It's its' Job.

I've done both. This shop filled them.

Re: Takes Three Cranks to Start

Reply #7 – December 11, 2021, 12:49:30 pm

Quote from: kimosabe99 – December 11, 2021, 12:32:58 pm

One of your fuel filters may have a minor leak. Check them out. If they seem tightened correctly you may have to verify that your mechanic removed old gasket before mounting a new filter. Two gaskets may prime and then still have a minor leak that would cause the problem you reported.

Ok, I like this. This sounds like it has the right cause an effect from the oil change. I'll check it out. Thanks!

Re: Takes Three Cranks to Start

Reply #8 – December 11, 2021, 01:28:24 pm

Sadly, no smoking gun here. Both filters were tight enough I had to use a wrench to get them off. One gasket per filter and the sealing surfaces of the flange and the gasket looked clean. I gave them all a wipe anyway.

It did start right up after putting both filters back on, but that's a data point, not a trend.

I'll test it again next time I'm out at the motorhome and hope irrationally that wiping the sealing surfaces and reseating them did the trick.

Thanks all!

Re: Takes Three Cranks to Start

Reply #9 – December 11, 2021, 01:31:29 pm

Do you still have the old WINN primary fuel filter? If so, any air in the clear plastic pre-filter?

Re: Takes Three Cranks to Start

Reply #10 – December 11, 2021, 01:36:23 pm

No. It's a Fleetguard now. Some PO must have changed it.

Re: Takes Three Cranks to Start

Reply #11 – December 11, 2021, 01:54:54 pm

What do you mean by "three cranks"?

There rotations of the crankshaft?

There discret starting attempts?

Re: Takes Three Cranks to Start

Reply #12 – December 11, 2021, 02:02:44 pm

Quote from: TGordon – December 11, 2021, 01:54:54 pm

What do you mean by "three cranks"?

Crank for ten seconds, rest 20, crank ten, rest, crank and start.

Re: Takes Three Cranks to Start

Reply #13 – December 11, 2021, 02:33:54 pm

Three cranks? How about Larry, Moe, and Curly or Brandon, Ka*#---Oops, almost broke a rule here.

Re: Takes Three Cranks to Start

Reply #14 – December 11, 2021, 02:57:55 pm

Quote from: trailertrashrick – December 11, 2021, 02:02:44 pm

Crank for ten seconds, rest 20, crank ten, rest, crank and start.

Air leak

Re: Takes Three Cranks to Start

Reply #15 – December 11, 2021, 04:33:37 pm

Air in the fuel system? Does the m11 require oil pressure before the fuel solenoid will open, bad sensor?

Re: Takes Three Cranks to Start

Reply #16 – December 11, 2021, 04:59:31 pm

The M11 doesn't need oil pressure to start. Try turning your key on for ten seconds
and then off and then right back on for ten seconds and do that 3 times and then
start the engine. You could also go to the engine compartment and push the bleed
switch and then run up and start it or start from the rear.

Re: Takes Three Cranks to Start

Reply #17 – December 11, 2021, 05:03:18 pm

Quote from: bbeane – December 11, 2021, 04:33:37 pm

Air in the fuel system?

That was kinda what I was thinking, but first wanted to see if it might be related to something done at the oil change because that's where the behavior changed. However, the ignition solenoid started acting up and that was unrelated to the oil change. From what I've read, air leaks are typically accompanied by fuel leaks and I have none.

If an air leak, I was hoping someone had a methodology for running it down. There is something like 80 feet of hose connecting ten or so components that I'm unfamiliar with, so not an easy job. Can't spray soapy water on air leaking in.

Quote from: bbeane – December 11, 2021, 04:33:37 pm

Does the m11 require oil pressure before the fuel solenoid will open, bad sensor?

I remember reading somewhere that it'll start and then shutdown in 30 seconds without oil pressure. The oil pressure gauge is working, so I assumed they shared a sender/sensor.

I'm still liking the fuel filter idea. If I didn't solve by pull, wipe, seat, I'm going to go back and pull them and make sure the gaskets are coated with motor oil and then reseat them again. On reflection, they seemed kinda dry.

Re: Takes Three Cranks to Start

Reply #18 – December 11, 2021, 05:05:21 pm

Quote from: oldguy – December 11, 2021, 04:59:31 pm

You could also go to the engine compartment and push the bleed
switch and then run up and start it or start from the rear.

Did that regularly before I changed my fuel lines. Was sucking air. Fuel injection fuel pump will not attain high enough pressure to initiate a start. Once running it will be able to pass the air and return to the tank.

Re: Takes Three Cranks to Start

Reply #19 – December 11, 2021, 05:06:39 pm

Quote from: oldguy – December 11, 2021, 04:59:31 pm

The M11 doesn't need oil pressure to start. Try turning your key on for ten seconds
and then off and then right back on for ten seconds and do that 3 times and then
start the engine.

I'll give that a try. I did turn it to "on" for about a minute and then try to start it, but it still required three cranking attempts.

I don't really know what's involved with this fuel system. Is there an electric fuel pump that would be energized by doing this?

Quote from: oldguy – December 11, 2021, 04:59:31 pm

The M11 doesn't need oil pressure to start. Try turning your key on for ten seconds
and then off and then right back on for ten seconds and do that 3 times and then
start the engine. You could also go to the engine compartment and push the bleed
switch and then run up and start it or start from the rear.

Will that bleed switch still work? I thought it was part of the Winn system. Where will it bleed?

Re: Takes Three Cranks to Start

Reply #20 – December 11, 2021, 05:09:26 pm

So on my stock configuration the engine pump is also the pulling fuel from the tank and threw the secondary and primary filters. I always have a vacuum indication on the fuel minder indicator I installed. Its not going to leak fuel out under a vacuum, but leak air into the system. I always use a small drab of DC4 on my fuel filters to allow correct torque and ease removal.

Re: Takes Three Cranks to Start

Reply #21 – December 11, 2021, 05:12:38 pm

You should have a electric bleed pump that can be operated manually. Once running it will not run. Without one you could never bleed air from system for filter change.
Once running it will be able to pass the air in the fuel and return back to the tank. I also had a primary fuel filter water drain allowing air to be drawn in. Never leaked fuel out except when the engine was shut down then would drip till it was empty

Re: Takes Three Cranks to Start

Reply #22 – December 12, 2021, 01:17:09 pm

When we bought ours, it was a little hard starting so I found a crack in the fuel return valve and bad O rings in the priming pump. See the crack in the return valve. Never pay list price as it was $72 but a local trucking company was only $31 as I remember. O rings were $0.10/each at NAPA.

Pierce

Re: Takes Three Cranks to Start

Reply #23 – July 25, 2024, 07:46:02 pm

I'm the original poster on this topic.

Just to close this out, I've been chasing it a while and finally found it on a Youtube, of course. It was a clogged check valve. I had MoT put a new one in and that solved it.

If I understand correctly, the check valve is the first thing in the fuel supply after the long run of fuel line -- before any filtering. Anything in the fuel tank might get stuck here and prop the valve open. This allows fuel to drain back in the tank, causing the fuel system to lose part of it's prime.

After MoT, I let it sit for about a month and it started right up.

Re: Takes Three Cranks to Start

Reply #24 – July 26, 2024, 02:44:33 pm

I've been struggling with a similar air leak problem in my 1997 Foretravel U320.

I have no visible fuel leak but have low fuel psi until the starter cranks for 30 seconds.

After "key hot", I must push the 'air purge' button at the rear of my coach and let it run for 20 seconds. Then it starts quickly.

Where is the "fuel return valve and bad O rings in the priming pump" ?

Furthermore, where is the fuel check valve(s) ?

Thanks,

Steven

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