Comparing coaches

Topic: Comparing coaches (Read 1944 times) previous topic - next topic

Comparing coaches

December 18, 2021, 03:38:55 pm

First of all, we're NOT likely to buy any of these coaches, at least not right now. If they are still for sale in July we may consider them, but I suspect that if they are still for sale then it means that either there is a problem or they are overpriced. At any rate, I'm interested in comparing a 270 to a 320, similar ages and floor plans. I know a 270 has only one propane furnace while a 320 has an AquaHot.

Coach #1: 1997 Foretravel U270 3600 WTBI | Motorhomes of Texas

Coach #2: 1999 Foretravel U320 3600 WTFE | Motorhomes of Texas

Coach #3: 1999 Foretravel U270 3602 WTFE | Motorhomes of Texas

Coach #4: 2000 Foretravel U270 3602 WTFE | Motorhomes of Texas

For reference, we're in a 40' 1993 U300 WTBI. If I copied the right coaches, these are all 36' with a similar floor plan. Some of these have the headlight conversion and some do not. Two have full body paint, two do not. We very rarely drive after dark (has happened only once), so what the headlights light up isn't as much of a concern for us as for others. I do drive with the headlights on, though, to make my vehicles easier for others to see.

Our towed is a 2015 Lincoln MKT, about 5,000 pounds.

A 270 is probably a somewhat simpler coach than a 320, but I suspect that both will use the same tires and have the same maintenance costs for engine and generator. The 320 will have more maintenance for the AquaHot, but is that more than made up for by the multiple zones, since the 270 has only one furnace?

Give me your thoughts on these. Basically, I'm asking you to give me ideas for us to talk about, NOT tell me to run down to Nac and buy sone. School runs until the end of May, and a fifth grandchild will be born here in early June, so we're not leaving until late June/early July anyway, and most likely these will all be gone.

Let the discussion begin.

Re: Comparing coaches

Reply #1 – December 18, 2021, 03:55:22 pm

Check out Beam Alarm for info.

https://web.archive.org/web/20191218121353/http://beamalarm.com/

Re: Comparing coaches

Reply #2 – December 18, 2021, 04:01:04 pm

For me there are two major advantages in having the U320. The Aqua-Hot is (I believe) a "must have" item. It actually requires very little maintenance, and the heating and the hot-water supply capabilities are great! The M11 (or ISM depending upon the year) provides much better towing and hill-climbing ability. The significantly higher torque is a real blessing! Based upon my experience and everything I've read the Cummins M11/ISM engines are among the best engines Cummins has ever produced—and perhaps among the best Diesel engines anyone has ever produced.

Re: Comparing coaches

Reply #3 – December 18, 2021, 04:10:31 pm

I should have said that I have the information from:

Foretravel Motorhome 1999 Specifications Brochures & Photos.

Foretravel Motorhome 2000 Specifications Brochures & Photos

Foretravel Motorhome 1997 Specifications Brochures & Photos

I'd like to hear what you think about the differences between these various models. For example, different engines are used. Is that important? Anyone who owns one is encouraged to chime in with your thoughts.

Re: Comparing coaches

Reply #4 – December 18, 2021, 04:16:26 pm

I'm with David when I was looking I only wanted a U320. With Aqua-hot I love the
warm floors and the warmth when I get up in the middle of the night. I leave the bathroom
thermostat on a 70, with the doors closed. The rest of the coach I turn the heat down.
The floors have been redone and it looks like the furniture has been redone. The
M11 is awesome.

Re: Comparing coaches

Reply #5 – December 18, 2021, 05:32:14 pm

The M-11 will cost slightly more in maintenance cost like twice the amount of oil than an 8.3.
The M-11 will have the 4060 rather than the 3060 but maintenance cost will be about the same.

Mike

Re: Comparing coaches

Reply #6 – December 18, 2021, 07:11:15 pm

how you use your coach and the condition of the coach is
probably the best reason to choose one over the other.
if we use our coach in the winter, we are in arizona if we
use it in the summer we are at home. we always look for
sun and warmth. there is nothing, other than hang in there
longer on a hill that a 320 will have over a 270.
I almost never hear of furnace problems but aqua hot and
slides are a regular subject on this forum

Re: Comparing coaches

Reply #7 – December 18, 2021, 08:40:19 pm

Fwiw I had a 2 furnace 280 and a 1 furnace 270 and don't miss the second furnace. Wouldn't be a factor for me as I never ran both at once.

Re: Comparing coaches

Reply #8 – December 18, 2021, 08:47:27 pm

Old thread may be useful: Lurking for awhile and have some questions

Re: Comparing coaches

Reply #9 – December 18, 2021, 08:53:46 pm

David. I too compared what I thought would meet my needs and expectations. Everyone is different. I started disqualifing coaches for many reasons and ended up in a corner with only one coach that would meet my needs. I also figured it would be out of my price range.
Do or will you ever tow? If so what do you tow?
Driving power requirements. Do you poke along or need to make good time?
Do you travel or park more.
Do you use in cold weather ever?
Slide or no slide?
Mountain driving or just stay in Florida?
Exhaust brake or Retarder. Jake also
How big do you want.
Only you can answer those questions

Personally it was worth the wait to find our coach, yes the aqua hot is more but it returns more, much more IMO. Being able to preheat engine is also nice. Bigger engine and trans were a no brainer for my planned and current use. More robust fuel system too. Tows 10k without any issues and does it in the mountains. Downside we probably loose out on one MPG fuel economy for the life of the coach.
Scott

Re: Comparing coaches

Reply #10 – December 18, 2021, 10:16:43 pm

To answer a few questions about us: We've been full-timers since 2014, with a break for a couple of years while I help out our church and school here in Riverton, WY. That will come to an end this summer and then we'll be back on the road. Most of the family is in the central half of the country, but there are some relatives on all three coasts (counting the Gulf of Mexico). We'd like to visit all 50 States, so there will be some mountain driving. I'd like to drive to Alaska, but Jo Ann thinks a cruise up would be better. That is a year or two off yet, so we'll see. Since they aren't making much progress on the bridge to Hawaii we'll probably have to figure out another way there.

We generally like to leave about 8 or 9 in the morning and land by early afternoon. I prefer cruising at about 60, especially since our towed is limited to no more than 65. We take whatever highway seems appropriate to get us from where we are to where we are going. There are times when the Interstate is the best choice and times when something else is better.

Our current coach was made before slides, but our learner had a small slide. Overall, I'd prefer no slides, but I also understand that the newer we get the more likely it is that we'll have one or more slides.

We do like to do campground hosting, so we're in one spot for one or two months at a time. Otherwise, we generally like to stay anywhere from a few days to a couple of weeks and then move on. We have a lot in New Mexico as a winter base. The plan is to spend much of the time from the end of October to mid-January in that area, taking some shorter trips but spending about half of the time at The Ranch.

We just had the bulkheads worked on this past summer, so I'm familiar with that problem. I like going to Nac annually for service, and from what I've read, an AquaHot requires annual service. Rudy is between Nac and The Ranch, and I'm pretty sure there are people in Nac who are qualified to service it too.

The mention of the additional torque and horsepower in a 320 vs the 270 is what I'm looking for, as is the note that one engine requires more oil than another. Thanks for the ideas. Keep them coming.

Re: Comparing coaches

Reply #11 – December 18, 2021, 10:36:11 pm

We have been to Alaska both ways. 2 cruises and 1 trip to Alaska and another up
north all the way to the Arctic Ocean. Those trips were in a Monaco Dynasty with
the 8.3 engine so that engine will get the job done. When I bought the Foretravel
I wanted a Jake brake which I have now put in and lots of power and I didn't want
a slide. I am planning on going North again and will go back into Alaska. What I want
is not what you might want and as Wayne said the condition and how you want to
use it is important.

Re: Comparing coaches

Reply #12 – December 18, 2021, 11:09:08 pm

We looked and looked and took a chance on a coach on the other side of the country. Bought it with only photos to go by.

Going on fourteen years later, it's been great and more than paid for itself in enjoyment with only diesel and insurance as the real expenses. It's been ultra reliable and while not over confident, worrying about being stuck somewhere is not on our minds. It's never been to a shop and never intend to take it to one.

The big pluses are the exterior styling, most of the interior layout with special emphasis on the feeling of privacy and cozy feeling the passenger has with no door there. The view is amazing with the high seating area and all the glass. Galley design is good and the bath is just perfect with the huge shower. The dark wood and cabinets are excellent.

The Detroit has excellent power, gets good mileage and the Jake absolutely rules. The Allison is rugged but a 6 speed with a shorter first and taller final drive would really be a nice addition. Never know the engine is back there except when I open the window and listen to the exhaust next to a wall or in a tunnel.

In closing, while I would like to make lots of changes, I can't imagine a better manufactured RV that ticks about all the boxes we wanted. As I said, the cost of ownership other than consumables has been just about nothing. Our U300 will be the last coach we ever own and will park it to use for the grand kids when we hit the century mark.

Can't wait for the next trip.

Pierce

Re: Comparing coaches

Reply #13 – December 18, 2021, 11:27:15 pm

I love this discussion. My first DP fell in my lap and I had no idea about it whatsoever. I quickly learned a ton online and now see some of the same topics discussed often. When the time came and a Foretravel fell in our lap I again did not go into making decision like which one I wanted. It was either this one or none. I chose to take this one

If I had a choice and the budget to go buy another one I would go for the 320 with the M11 and Aquahot. That comes with more cost up front and maintenance. That will have to be up to you if it is worth it. I look forward to seeing all the other replies.

Re: Comparing coaches

Reply #14 – December 19, 2021, 10:02:57 am

David, since I am a black sheep on this forum with a Wanderlodge, I'll not make any comparisons between various Foretravel coaches; that said, I can talk about length.

We have camped, ministered out of, worked out of, and full timed in both 36 footers and 40 footers. We recently sold our 36' coach, which we both dearly loved and was in excellent condition. We bought another 40'. The 4' was not the only consideration, but it was a VERY big one. More storage, room for a washer/dryer, larger shower, and more room for people. When we minister somewhere, invariably someone will want to meet with us. And, they want to meet in the coach......LOL! I have no idea why that is....... LOL!!! Anyway, meeting with the pastor and their spouse is no problem, add the kids and it gets tight, Pastor and staff and they need to be related! LOL! Sometimes we mediate in troubled marriages. The estranged spouses may not feel comfortable setting beside each other. Having spaced seating is handy. Even hosting family members can be tight:

ME: "Hi, we're in town & would like to see your guys. When is a good time?"

THEM: "Anytime is fine but you don't need to come here. You drove so far already! Where are you? We will come over. It's just so neat that you have your house with you!..... And we will bring Uncle Jack and Aunt Judy and their families too! They want to see your camper!!"

Stay with a 40 footer...... You will be glad you did!

TOM

Re: Comparing coaches

Reply #15 – December 19, 2021, 10:11:46 am

The 40' ft. models are my preference too. More for the storage than visitors. Also the bus doors are a blessing for me as the canopy I park under doesn't let my battery door or water manifold door open wide enough to work on without backing out from under the cover.

Re: Comparing coaches

Reply #16 – December 19, 2021, 10:23:02 am

My opionion,keep the one you have with the new engine.

Re: Comparing coaches

Reply #17 – December 19, 2021, 11:06:01 am

David, so playing devils advocate ill honestly say my complaints about my coach.
Electronic toilet. In a 36 footer it is a project to change but worth it IMO
Head light are the end of the performance spectrum at the bottom. Many upgrades available
Wanted to stay under 34 foot, our is 36

Can't think of any other
Pro items that pushed into the purchase
Trash truck running gear. ISM 450 , Allison 4060R
I was unable to find any failures other than operator error.
Robust fuel system, no Caps injection pump.
No retarder issues like on the 3060R trans
Aqua hot
Dislikes with all old coaches both 270, 295,320;
Many of the shared problems with 20 year old rubber products
Poor corrosion prevention
CRT TVs got to go.
Dated interior, fine for us but have heard others complain
Slide, no slide I have a slide Ive yet to be able to use. Will resolve once parts show up, looking forward to that
Typical 20 year old coach issues
Its not a hobby, more like a part time job ( I do enjoy) but worth mentioning
I alway have the liability of owning a large piece of equipment in the back of my mind and hope I can relax in a couple of years of ownership
Things I really enjoy;
Driving it is a pleasure
IMO decent fuel economy
36 footer seems fine and I now wouldn't give as much preference on length other than weight limits on the coach.
Safety of the Foretravel coaches.
Did i mention driving, i was amazed how well they handle when driving conditions demand good handling
Outboard air bags. Really improves handling.
Yes I think I'm biased
Scott

Re: Comparing coaches

Reply #18 – December 19, 2021, 01:09:05 pm

David-

Some questions/comments-

1- Why are you wanting a newer rig? You have a FT that you know all the history, quirks and features, and I am going to assume it is paid for. What does a newer rig get you that you do not have currently.

2- That said, is a Aqua-hot mandatory? If so, a 320 or optioned 295 are what you need.

3- You mentioned a M11 would be nice; unsure what is in your 40 ft, but I would opine that a 8.3 on a 36ft chassis would be more than adequate on the shorter chassis. I tow a large SUV and have no concerns about power with my 8.3. Additionally, the M11 detracts another 1 mpg from what I have read and heard from others.

4- If you are set on a newer rig, you have time on your side. I would look for a member-owned FT that has records and is well cared for. Put a WTB ad on here and FB. Obviously money comes into play, can you buy one and then sell yours or do you need to sell yours to fund the new one? Is a trade in/consignment ideal for you? If so, MOT would be a great option. You don't need to reply to the money questions if you do not want to, just something to think about. I will say that if you find something you like, you should be ready to pull the trigger or you may miss out on it.

GL and keep us posted!

Re: Comparing coaches

Reply #19 – December 19, 2021, 01:21:40 pm

Quote from: Jason – December 19, 2021, 01:09:05 pm

Additionally, the M11 detracts another 1 mpg from what I have read and heard from others.

I would really like to see some data to support this statement. I honestly believe that driving style has more of an impact on fuel mileage than does engine size. However, if anyone has actual data comparing engine size under otherwise identical conditions then I'd really like to see the data.

Re: Comparing coaches

Reply #20 – December 19, 2021, 01:50:39 pm

Lots of good points here. I'll try to answer some of them, in no particular order.

Why look for something newer? Our coach is coming up on 30 years old and we're sure hoping that we'll be back to fulltiming this summer. Yes, we've put plenty of money into it to keep up with maintenance. Yes, it is paid for. Yes, we do like it. That said, we're hoping to be able to get something that will let us keep going without too many unplanned delays for repairs.

Fuel economy is another issue. We're getting about 7-8 mpg with the Detroit and generator. I think (and you owners can chime in here) that a newer coach would probably do a bit better than that. A one mpg improvement would probably save me a couple hundred dollars a year.

Length is only a minor concern. From what I can see from the pictures a 36' has nearly as much interior space as our 40' GV. The bathroom is slightly smaller, but otherwise it looks pretty similar. The difference comes in the basement. Our GV has another bay, slightly smaller than the main one, that a 36' doesn't have. Since we now have our base at The Ranch we don't have to carry everything with us. Also, Laborers For Christ is gone, so I won't have to carry a bunch of tools anymore. Might have to learn how to pack more efficiently and also learn to leave more behind.

I know they were only used for a few years, but I really like the bus-style bay doors. Having the doors lock open instead of falling down on my hard head might make the doors last longer.

Since Jo Ann can't drive our current coach, and probably wouldn't even try anything else, owning two coaches just isn't going to work. The 93 will have to go prior to, or at the same time as, getting something else.

Re: Comparing coaches

Reply #21 – December 19, 2021, 01:55:28 pm

I really like our 36-foot. We are not full-timers, so we still have empty storage areas. Some people crave a toilet in a room - we don't care, but I respect the notion. No doubt the extra room is nice - I don't think a 40-foot would make the turn into our driveway!

I am pretty indifferent when it comes to big engine versus medium engine. As long as I avoid a King Cruise! We have the M-11, and I have floored the pedal once in over 10,000 miles. More power than I need or use. Whether I go 60, 50, or 40 up a steep hill is not an issue for me. I usually tuck myself behind the slow semi and take it easy on the equipment. In our first coach, I once spent an entire hour at 12MPH, climbing up a mountain! The M-11 takes more oil, (more coolant?), but that is hardly on my radar.

The Aqua Hot... I love it, despite the additional maintenance. I have replaced the nozzle and corrected a wiring issue. If it were sitting on a work bench, the repairs would be so simple! On my side, in a bay, reaching back and around - a little tougher. But the quiet heat is so nice. I get annoyed buying propane - we top it off maybe twice a year.

I guess all coaches in your search group would have the retarder, though I guess a new buyer could opt out. I would not own a coach without a retarder.

My primary check list for our last purchase:
1. No delamination
2. No interior stink
3. Diesel generator
4. Retarder
5. No bulkhead disaster
6. 36-foot or less

After that, we looked at them. We QUICKLY centered on Foretravels. We went from "let's buy another motorhome" to driving this one home in less than two weeks.

My wife reacts to cleanliness and order. I react to good repair, maintenance and surmountable issues. We actually make a good shopping team.

We found one that we really liked and went from first seeing it to handshake deal in a few hours.

My secondary check list was probably much like an inspector would use.

No regrets. I have repaired or improved TONS of things on our coach, but have had no major problems (as in stranded for days) in over a year of ownership.

One thing... Think carefully about full body paint. We got it, I like it, it looks great. I do miss the "hose it off and put it to bed" with our previous FT. I feel it is my duty to wax the new one after every outing.

Re: Comparing coaches

Reply #22 – December 19, 2021, 01:59:11 pm

Our 40' has a lifetime average of 7.6 mpg I am getting a little better than that towing the GC. I don't know if you would get a 1 mpg improvement with the M-11 or ISM over your Detroit. Having the 6 speed in all the later coaches would be an improvement for driver comfort. on hills.

Re: Comparing coaches

Reply #23 – December 19, 2021, 02:23:29 pm

David, when we purchased our 320,I knew that I would eventually pull a full size truck(3/4 ton). I checked with the local Allison service rep and he gave me information on the 3060 Allison and the 4060 Allison. The 8.3 cummins is rated at 350 HP if I'm not mistaken and the 3060 Allison is rated for 365 INPUT horsepower. With that information I knew that I Would not be able to turn up the horsepower on the 8.3 if I needed to to pull a larger load. Since that time I have seen new coaches (other brands) that advertise 450 HP with a 3060 Allison. I revisited this issue with the Allison service tech and he assured me that the issue was weight--As long as you stay around 40,000 lbs the 3060 will do fine with the 450 hp engine but if you put that combination in a 80,000 lb truck the transmission would last about 2 weeks. With that being said we are very satisfied with our coach, I did replace the radiator and CAC but was able to do that myself, Also, as Mike stated above the oil change on the M11 is around double the 8.3-- M11 takes 9 to 10 gallon and I think the 8.3 is 5 to 6 gallon. I use the oversize oil filter so it takes close to 10 gallon. Good luck on you adventure
Just my thought
Chris

Re: Comparing coaches

Reply #24 – December 19, 2021, 02:34:38 pm

Number one in mpg gain/loss is speed. The faster you go, the more fuel you use per mile.
Coach weight is another. A little less mpg on the flat but more loss on mountain terrain. Stop and go mileage will be less on a heavier coach. Huge appetite for diesel on twisty roads like Highway 1 in California.
Final drive ratio. The taller the ratio, the better the mileage will be in many cases. The six speeds already have a tall final drive ratio.
Engine size. The more cubic inches you have, the more internal friction you will have. Big engines use more fuel at idle and low speed but may be offset somewhat by being able to pull a taller gear because of more torque at a lower rpm at cruising speeds. Less piston travel per mile.
Height and width will total more frontal area in a big coach, more aerodynamic drag.
Proper alignment and tire pressure will help mileage. Low pressures generate more heat and require hp to make that heat. Mounting Smart Way verified tires will increase mileage. Look up list online. New tires will see mileage improvement after a few thousand miles.
Driving technique in a coach may effect mileage just like a car.
Pulling even a light toad will drop mileage. Terrain and toad weight can result in a significant mileage drop.

Any car review with the same car and different sized engines will always show more fuel used as the larger engines are compared.

For prospective new coach buyers, let the manufactures know that you want a DT12 manual/automatic transmission. It is the absolute best way to get the best mileage and the least maintenance. No torque converter and the included GPS programming for every weight, every grade and speed required automatically selects the right gear, throttle, speed for any situation if the autopilot setting is selected. Jakes are on all engines also. No transmission cooler using engine coolant either.

Pierce

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