new Batteries

Topic: new Batteries (Read 1775 times) previous topic - next topic

new Batteries

January 24, 2022, 02:45:42 am

I just installed new batteries and I would like some info .

I have been reading this tread

The RV BATTERY CHARGING PUZZLE « HandyBob's Blog

and got me thinking. I spent 2 k on this batteries with the intent of newer having to buy another set in 10 years.
I have disconected the house batteries for about 3 days while I took the old ones to be tested and then got the new ones.
did the charger lose it prior programing?
do I need to reprogram the charger for the new batteries.?
how do I check what my charger puts out?
how do I check what my alternator puts out?
how do I know when the batteries are charged for sure?
can I set the bulk charge and float charge parameters on my charger?
which is the best way to charge the batteries?

thank you in advance

Re: new Batteries

Reply #1 – January 24, 2022, 08:37:42 am

Before we start throwing answers/advice at you, would help if we know:

1. How many new 8D house batteries did you buy? Are they all AGM? How many chassis (start) batteries do you have? What size? Are they also AGM?

2. What is the brand and model of the inverter/battery charger in your coach? It is not unusual for this component to be upgraded or replaced, so we don't want to assume that it is still the factory original unit.

3. Do you own a good quality multimeter (electrical tester) and do you know how to use it?

4. Are you comfortable working around your big engine when it is running?

5. Do you know where the battery isolator is located on your coach?

Let us know!

Re: new Batteries

Reply #2 – January 24, 2022, 11:49:38 am

You don't have to have a $200+ multimeter, most are OK. You probably want a clamp-on DC amp meter. AC is also nice.

This one does both AC and DC amps, AC and DC volts, ohms, continuity, and more. Lots of choices.
Amazon.com: Extech MA445 True RMS 400A AC/DC Clamp Meter with NCV : Industria...

As an Amazon Associate Foretravel Owners' Forum earns from qualifying purchases.

Re: new Batteries

Reply #3 – January 24, 2022, 12:53:15 pm

Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie – January 24, 2022, 08:37:42 am

Before we start throwing answers/advice at you, would help if we know:

1. How many new 8D house batteries did you buy? Are they all AGM? How many chassis (start) batteries do you have? What size? Are they also AGM?

2. What is the brand and model of the inverter/battery charger in your coach? It is not unusual for this component to be upgraded or replaced, so we don't want to assume that it is still the factory original unit.

3. Do you own a good quality multimeter (electrical tester) and do you know how to use it?

4. Are you comfortable working around your big engine when it is running?

5. Do you know where the battery isolator is located on your coach?

Let us know!

1. I only replaced the house batteries and they are all 3 agm and identical
2. xantrex prosine
3.i own a 20$ multimeter
4. somewhat comfortable working around a roaring engine.
5. I am not sure where the batteries isolator is.

pictures help when trying to located parts
thank you

Re: new Batteries

Reply #4 – January 24, 2022, 01:03:07 pm

Thanx for the added info!

How many chassis (start) batteries do you have? What size? Are they also AGM?

It's helpful to know if all the batteries on your coach are the same type (AGM?) because it can have a bearing on battery charging setups.

The battery isolator is a handy place to test the output of your alternator, and the voltage of each battery bank.

If still the original factory installed unit, your isolator probably looks similar to the photo below:

Re: new Batteries

Reply #5 – January 24, 2022, 01:40:57 pm

I found one of your previous posts, which includes some very helpful photos, AND answers to some questions.

1. Your battery isolator is located on the forward wall in your engine compartment. Lift your mattress platform, look down, there it is!

2. You have the BEP Voltage Sensitive Relay Module.

3. You have the standard ProSine LED Control Panel.

Statpower fault light .

https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=media;sa=media;in=1186

Re: new Batteries

Reply #6 – January 24, 2022, 01:52:34 pm

BEP Digital Voltage Sensing Relay (DVSR) 12/24V

"The Digital Voltage Sensing Relay (DVSR) allows the charging of a second battery bank from any single charging source. When the voltage on the charged bank rises sufficiently, the DVSR engages allowing the 2nd battery bank to charge. When charging stops and voltage falls, the DVSR automatically isolates the battery banks, ensuring that engine start batteries are kept fully charged."

Re: new Batteries

Reply #7 – January 24, 2022, 02:17:14 pm

Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie – January 24, 2022, 01:40:57 pm

I found one of your previous posts, which includes some very helpful photos, AND answers to some questions.

1. Your battery isolator is located on the forward wall in your engine compartment. Lift your mattress platform, look down, there it is!

2. You have the BEP Voltage Sensitive Relay Module.

3. You have the standard ProSine LED Control Panel.

Statpower fault light .

https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=media;sa=media;in=1186

ok here are some pics of the batteries and inverter.

the chassis batteries are intersate probably flooded lead by the stickers on it.
I attach a pic of the battery bank settings from the inverter dip switches
and I remember that blue box under the bed.

Re: new Batteries

Reply #8 – January 24, 2022, 04:30:31 pm

Quote from: danilaprepeleac – January 24, 2022, 02:45:42 am

I have disconnected the house batteries for about 3 days...
1. did the charger lose it prior programing?
2. do I need to reprogram the charger for the new batteries.?
3. how do I check what my charger puts out?
4. how do I check what my alternator puts out?
5. how do I know when the batteries are charged for sure?
6. can I set the bulk charge and float charge parameters on my charger?
7. which is the best way to charge the batteries?

Now that you have provided the necessary information, hopefully one of members who is familiar with the ProSine 2.5 inverter will be able to answer your questions about how to set it up for your new batteries. I know nothing about that inverter so I'm no help. If you have the Owner's Manual for your inverter, it should contain the answers to these questions. Or, refer to the copy from our Forum library (linked below).

https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=media;sa=media;in=1186

I can answer question #4. Since you now know where your isolator is located, it is easy to check the alternator output. The center post on the isolator is the alternator input post. Simply start your engine, then check the voltage on that post. Easy!

The other two posts on the isolator are connected to your battery banks. When the engine is running, the voltage on those posts should be about 0.5 to 0.7 volts LESS than what you read on the center post. This is due to the voltage loss across the diodes.

There is no way, in your photo, to determine which outer post on the isolator is connected to the chassis (start) batteries, and which is connected to the coach (house) batteries. This can only be determined by either following the battery cables, or by doing some testing with the multimeter. It would be a good thing to know!

The BEP VSR in the photo below is connected to the two outside posts on the isolator. This model VSR only operates in one direction. If the input to the VSR was connected to the chassis isolator post, then the VSR would be doing essentially the same job as the isolator. This is illogical. Therefore, I assume the input side of the VSR is connected to the coach isolator post. If this is true, then the VSR would be acting sorta like a Trik-L-Start device. When the coach batteries are being charged, the VSR would (under certain conditions) divert some charging current to the chassis batteries. This would allow the inverter/charger to maintain the chassis batteries when the coach is plugged in to shore power (or when the generator is running). This would be logical.

Re: new Batteries

Reply #9 – January 24, 2022, 05:51:05 pm

Your new batteries look like AGMs. Your Prosine 2500 should be set for that type by default unless it has been changed. Not likely that that is the case. You may have had GEL batteries but the profiles are very similar. GEL batteries are more sensitive to overcharging, charging temperatures and charge slower. See the manual for details. Disconnecting the Prosine will not change how it is set. See page 26 of the Prosine document.

You should have a temperature sensor for the Prosine. Be sure to hook it up, it will help improve charge performance

The charge rate from the inverter to the batteries can be seen if you have a battery monitor and shunt. Many use these. Victron Energy BMV-712 Smart Battery Monitor

Or you can use a clamp-on DC amp meter on either the + or - cable from the Prosine. The Prosine charger will adjust the charge rate based on the voltage of the batteries. The charging voltage will be somewhere between 13.4 and 13.8 volts.

Look up the datasheet for your batteries to get the rate of charge for the battery that indicates a fully charged battery (or as much as you are going to push into it.

For Lifeline AGM Batteries at 77° F "The battery is considered to be fully charged when the current drops below 0.5% of the battery's rated capacity (0.5A for a 100Ah battery)". See section 5.4 of the Lifeline document. That's about 4 amp for three 8Ds.

You can use the same DC clamp-on amp meter to see what the alternator is generating. Clamp the meter to the cable near the center post of the isolator. Safer there.

AGM batteries should be recharged when they reach 50% state of charge (SOC) or 12.2 volts. 50% SOC is when 1/2 of the battery capacity has been used. It is a maximum discharge level before recharging to get the manufacturer's estimated life expectancy measured in charge cycles. To get that, you need to recharge to 100% SOC almost every time. If you discharge to 75% SOC (use 1/4 of capacity) and recharge to 100% regularly you will almost double the life expectancy of the AGM batteries. In any case, 10 years of life is at the outside of a reasonable expectation. 7 years is more realistic. With care, some get more.

Not recharging to 100% almost every time will slowly degrade the battery's maximum storage capacity.

Your batteries should be connected as shown. You will improve battery life if you change the order of the batteries once a year or so. 123 becomes 231 and then 312 as time goes by. With the batteries connected as shown they don't discharge evenly. Rotating the connections evens out loads over time. This is easier done (sometimes) on start batteries. Not so easy with 8Ds either.

Roger

Re: new Batteries

Reply #10 – January 24, 2022, 07:51:25 pm

Roger you just blew my mind! I have to do a lot of reading about batteries. I have some pretty old MK 8d gel house batteries. I'm not sure if I will replace them with gel or agm. I guess I need to see what I have for a charging system to see what I can do. Of course there is no date on the batteries or any paper work in the folder.

Re: new Batteries

Reply #11 – January 24, 2022, 08:54:36 pm

Actually 3 batteries wired as shown share the load equally, so no rotation is required. Each battery is connected with 2 jumpers to the load as shown by the numbered jumpers.

Re: new Batteries

Reply #12 – January 24, 2022, 10:52:01 pm

Quote from: prfleming – January 24, 2022, 08:54:36 pm

Actually 3 batteries wired as shown share the load equally, so no rotation is required. Each battery is connected with 2 jumpers to the load as shown by the numbered jumpers.

Peter might be right but what I read talks about the internal resistance of the batteries when wired as shown make the middle battery discharge at a different rate than the batteries at the end positions. Maybe it is not much but if you are really trying to extend life of your batteries then this is a pretty easy strategy especially for the start batteries.

Re: new Batteries

Reply #13 – January 25, 2022, 09:41:33 am

Quote from: prfleming – January 24, 2022, 08:54:36 pm

Actually 3 batteries wired as shown share the load equally, so no rotation is required. Each battery is connected with 2 jumpers to the load as shown by the numbered jumpers.

I can see no difference in the cabling of the 3 diagrams.

Nick

Re: new Batteries

Reply #14 – January 25, 2022, 10:56:40 am

Here is an extract from an Impact Battery Blog page. It shows 4 batteries wired in the way described above. Three batteries will have the same result. The center batteries charge and discharge differently than the outside batteries by 15% in this example due to internal resistance.

I recently rewired my start batteries so that each battery is connected to a pair of bus bars using the same length cables. My house batteries are done the same way. This is a uniformly balance way to get equal charge to all batteries and equal discharge from each battery. Individual batteries are always going to vary from each other especially as they age so no scheme is ever perfect.

The blog entry is also attached.

Re: new Batteries

Reply #15 – January 25, 2022, 11:45:22 am

Yes, "Roger's Way" is slightly better. So, if rewiring, go with it.

If not rewiring, I would probably stay with positive from "one end" battery, negative from the "other end" battery. Just a cost/benefit issue.

Re: new Batteries

Reply #16 – January 25, 2022, 11:49:04 am

So for the po' folks like us with only two (or less) batteries in each bank, not something to lose sleep over.

Re: new Batteries

Reply #17 – January 25, 2022, 12:07:43 pm

Pages 42, 43, and 44 give you the DIP Switch settings you want to check.

Xantrex Prosine Ps2 5 Users Manual PS2.5_3.0 Install&Operate

Re: new Batteries

Reply #18 – January 25, 2022, 12:20:29 pm

Quote from: Old Toolmaker – January 25, 2022, 12:07:43 pm

Pages 42, 43, and 44 give you the DIP Switch settings you want to check.

Thank You for getting us back on track and providing an answer to the OP's original questions. I'm as bad or worse than everybody else about running the discussion off the rails.

Not sure which copy of the ProSine manual you are looking at. In the .pdf copy linked below the dip switch settings are found on pages 25, 26 and 27.

https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=media;sa=media;in=1186

Re: new Batteries

Reply #19 – January 26, 2022, 03:49:28 pm

my coach has 3 house batteries and they are 2 at the bottom and 1 on top just like in the picture I attached how do I maximize the battery life like that to ensure all batteries work equally

see the pic of the wiring set up
and none of those cables are the same length

Daniel

Re: new Batteries

Reply #20 – January 26, 2022, 07:18:19 pm

Jason, JMHO but I wouldn't worry much about it. I never rotate my flash light batteries😆

Re: new Batteries

Reply #21 – January 27, 2022, 12:19:09 am

Daniel,

Your batteries should be wired this way. The way you have it shown, both the + and - connections come from the same battery. When batteries are wired this way cable length doesn't matter much.

Re: new Batteries

Reply #22 – January 27, 2022, 01:21:35 am

thank you Roger and everyone for your wisdom.
i will try tomorrow to see if the coach negative is long enough to reach the top battery terminal.
I had a feeling that they were not wired the best optimal way.

Re: new Batteries

Reply #23 – January 29, 2022, 02:20:01 am

The charge rate from the inverter to the batteries can be seen if you have a battery monitor and shunt. Many use these. Victron Energy BMV-712 Smart Battery Monitor

Roger i just got the Victron BMW 712.

do you have this installed in your coach ,would like to be able to understand how exactly gets hooked up.
if you don't mind using the last drawing can you please show me where it gets added to the system and did you take it up in the coach or just left it in the bay since it has the Blue tooth communication.
Also the inverter is behind the wall do i need to get additional cables to be able to hook it up.

Thank you for tacking the time to explain this to me

Daniel

Re: new Batteries

Reply #24 – January 29, 2022, 10:47:31 am

Quote from: danilaprepeleac – January 29, 2022, 02:20:01 am

The charge rate from the inverter to the batteries can be seen if you have a battery monitor and shunt.

Battery Monitor, DROK Amp Volt Power Watt Meter DC 0-300V 200A STN LCD...

Another option for battery monitors is using a Hall sensor. With this method no shunt is required, and very inexpensive.

I have this installed in the Excursion camper build our daughter is working on. It measures charge and discharge current, and tracks battery state of charge in amp-hrs.

This picture shows fully charged batteries (300 AH) and current with a 100 watt light bulb (9.0 amps). The AHs will start going down. When charging the current shows a negative number and the AHs will start going up, returning to 300 AH at full charge.

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