Solar Question for Gurus

Topic: Solar Question for Gurus (Read 2153 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Solar Question for Gurus

Reply #25 – February 10, 2022, 09:00:56 am

Re: Solar Question for Gurus

Reply #26 – February 10, 2022, 09:08:57 am

They put solar panels above parking areas here in Phoenix area schools pretty regularly. The structures are steel and very sturdy to handle winds. Also there is a roof under the panels as, with the panels angled toward the south , wouldn't provide coverage from all Sun and occasional rain. Also as mentioned above, with the dust, they need to be cleaned and they hire folks to do this. If you have room and sounds like you do, I would go with the ground mounted array for cost and accessibility . Our home here is covered with solar. We put on when we got a new 30 year roof. Otherwise if you ever need a new roof, panels must come off. 6-7k for removal and reinstall.. we are big fans of solar as the 30+ panels have offset our electrical costs for the house AC and our pool heater. P.S. I am able to rinse mine off when needed, a few times a year

Re: Solar Question for Gurus

Reply #27 – February 10, 2022, 10:50:58 am

Quote from: EddieNel – February 09, 2022, 06:15:14 pm

Great thread. I've been thinking about solar panels. Didn't know about the micro inverters. From what I have read they are way more efficient.

Monitoring helps make sure the panels are working well and how well.

These are the microinverters we have. Reliable solar and storage for your home | Enphase

The newer iQ8+ versions are >97% efficient, much better than most DC to AC inverters, and can be set up to provide split-phase 220v. With a monitoring kit connected to the internet, we can see the status and performance of each panel in real-time and summarized it over time. We have a second monitor which tracks grid power used, power sold to the grid, and solar production, used and sold in just about any time frame you want from minutes to lifetime. All this data is available online to see whenever your want.

If you have an integrated Victron system connected to the internet you can track solar production, power use, battery crate, and landline use with Victron's online app.

August 17th, 2021.

A hot AC use day at home. The smaller spikes are AC and the wider spikes are the electric water heater coming on at night. Both (and the coach barn) are on off-peak power for about 4.5¢ per kWh. 42.8 kWh generated. 8 AM to 8 AM.

Panel status and generation for the same day as above, start and stop times are 12 AM to 12 AM so slightly different production numbers, 43.5 kWh.

And VRM data from yesterday

For the last months while we are away our production is off - lots of snow at home. If we were there I would be clearing the snow on the panels on the bigger array, I can do it from the ground.

Re: Solar Question for Gurus

Reply #28 – February 10, 2022, 11:04:36 am

Quote from: Roger & Susan in Home2 – February 10, 2022, 10:50:58 am

The newer iQ8 versions are >97% efficient, much better than most DC to AC inverters, and can be set up to provide split-phase 220v.

The Enphase IQ8+ micro inverters are even more magical.

Supposedly they are capable of setting up a "micro grid" when the electric power fails at your house. This allows the solar panels to keep operating (in the daytime, of course) and supplying power to your home even if you do not have any battery backup. This is a big advance from all other grid-tied solar systems, which are usually disabled when the power grid goes down, unless you have backup batteries.

Re: Solar Question for Gurus

Reply #29 – February 10, 2022, 11:35:18 am

Yup, no big equipment, since it is already tied to the house and grid just disconnect grid when power is out.

We added 6 more panels a year ago, mount them, plug them in, and that was about it.

There are many ways to get this done. Each installer is going to have their preferred way, probably the one that makes them the most money. We used silver frames at home for cost reasons. Black frames are about the same now and look cleaner. Your needs should drive the solution.

Re: Solar Question for Gurus

Reply #30 – February 10, 2022, 03:24:35 pm

Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie – February 09, 2022, 01:34:46 pm

We've owned our coach since late 2013. All I need to do is go back in my files and dig out the paper utility bills for a couple years prior to our purchase. Total the monthly usage for 12 months and come up with a average monthly kWh before plugging in the coach. SIMPLE!

Chuck what concerns me is that you have utility bills from over 10 years ago. The DW thinks I'm crazy for keeping them a year. 😂😂

Keith

Re: Solar Question for Gurus

Reply #31 – February 10, 2022, 10:59:35 pm

Update: Met our first salesman today. He works for Sunpro Solar - a national company with excellent ratings. We had a good conversation about our goals for the system and he gave me his proposal. Here is what he suggested:

System size: 13.68 kW
Estimated 1st year production: 24,992 kWh = 2083 kWh per month = 69 kWh per day
(36) LG NeON 2 panels, 60 cell, 380W, 21.0% efficiency
(36) Enphase IQ7+ micro inverters
(1) Encharge 10 Storage System module (AC coupled battery, 10.08 kWh useable, lithium iron phosphate (LFP) chemistry)
Enpower Smart Switch
IQ Combiner (includes Envoy wireless communication module)
Enlighten mobile app
Unirac ground mount racking system
All material and labor required for complete turnkey installation, plus any permitting (if required)
25 year guarantee on all system components, 25 year Power Production Gaurantee

This system is projected to provide 100% of our average monthly power usage, based on last year's (2021) numbers. In theory, this should allow us to zero out our utility bill each month, assuming we have a plan with net metering. The salesman provided me with contact info for a electric provider that serves this area and has a net metering plan with unlimited roll-over of unused credits. Our current provider - Reliant - does not offer this type plan in this area. The new provider will also reimburse us for the penalty if we break our contract with Reliant.

We don't have a firm price yet, cuz the finance office is working up some different financing proposals. Will probably be a heart stopper when they hand me the $$ numbers. What the heck - can't take it with you.

I really like the Enphase totally integrated system...especially the seamless way everything works together. I'm gonna get two more bids from other companies, based on the same system components. See who can give me the whole package at the most reasonable price.

So what say you Forum solar experts? Does this sound like a good package? All comments happily accepted!

Re: Solar Question for Gurus

Reply #32 – February 11, 2022, 12:06:50 am

Have the guy give you some names and numbers of people that had installed a year ago. See if those numbers are correct. Those numbers come out to 5 hr of 100% per day. Ready for Roger to give us some numbers

Re: Solar Question for Gurus

Reply #33 – February 11, 2022, 12:13:39 am

My enphase enlighten system provides data on production and panel performance. We added the eGauge monitor to add in actual consumption, solar production and net in and out from the grid.

If your average daily consumption is 69 kWh then 10 kWh of battery storage will get you about 3.5 hrs of backup capability. Ask if the cost for that capability works.

Ours was about $2.75 / watt all in including permits and inspections. Adding the battery component could add another $10K.

Re: Solar Question for Gurus

Reply #34 – February 11, 2022, 09:12:40 am

Quote from: turbojack – February 11, 2022, 12:06:50 am

Have the guy give you some names and numbers of people that had installed a year ago. See if those numbers are correct. Those numbers come out to 5 hr of 100% per day.

Good idea to ask for references from local customers. We'll do that!

I checked the production claim with the NREL PVWatts calculator. It came out very close. See .jpg below.

PVWatts Calculator

EnPhase claims the IQ7+ micro inverters are more efficient than conventional string inverters, which should help a bit.

https://enphase.com/sites/default/files/2021-05/IQ7-IQ7plus-DS-EN-US_0.pdf

AND, if the system does not live up to projections, SunPro will pay for the shortfall in cash (on a annual basis) for 25 years.

Power Production Guarantee for 25 Years | Sunpro Solar

The salesman says he has not ever had a customer in this area make a claim under that guarantee.

Re: Solar Question for Gurus

Reply #35 – February 11, 2022, 09:30:31 am

Quote from: Roger & Susan in Home2 – February 11, 2022, 12:13:39 am

If your average daily consumption is 69 kWh then 10 kWh of battery storage will get you about 3.5 hrs of backup capability.

Ours was about $2.75 / watt all in including permits and inspections. Adding the battery component could add another $10K.

The salesman said that the Enphase system will all be hung on the outside wall of our house, right next to where the grid power enters the house, electric meter, and main disconnect breaker. This will be a perfect location for us because it is on the side of the house we hardly ever visit. Won't take up any valuable space in our garage, which is where I thought everything would go.

He said they will install a circuit breaker sub-panel with 10 available circuits. They will ask us what we want powered when the grid goes down. What we choose to power will determine how long the 10 kWh battery will last. So we need to think about that... The water well, for sure, plus our fridge. He said the single battery cannot power our heat pump, but we can live without that.

I'm sure our price per watt will come in a lot higher than your number, for a couple reasons.

The ground mount panels will require extra labor time to build. They are designed to handle wind requirements in this area, so posts will either be set in deep holes in the ground, or on "cement ballast" mounts. He said the engineers decide that stuff. Plus they need to dig a trench for the cables roughly 100' from the mounts to the house. In our extremely rocky soil this dirt work will be a real chore. More time and labor.

Also, everything in the Midland area is expensive. In the middle of the TX oilfield, it is assumed that everyone is rich.

Re: Solar Question for Gurus

Reply #36 – February 11, 2022, 11:35:44 am

Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie – February 11, 2022, 09:30:31 am

He said the single battery cannot power our heat pump, but we can live without that.

Based upon our experience when we were without utility power for an entire week after a nearby tornado I would seriously consider adding a second battery if that would provide heat pump/air conditioner capability.

Re: Solar Question for Gurus

Reply #37 – February 11, 2022, 11:53:18 am

Chuck, are you buying this system, or leasing?

Re: Solar Question for Gurus

Reply #38 – February 11, 2022, 12:31:17 pm

Buying, either cash or financing, depending on the deal they offer.

Re: Solar Question for Gurus

Reply #39 – February 11, 2022, 12:33:05 pm

Quote from: D.J. Osborn – February 11, 2022, 11:35:44 am

Based upon our experience when we were without utility power for an entire week after a nearby tornado I would seriously consider adding a second battery if that would provide heat pump/air conditioner capability.

This is something we will look at after we see how one battery works. Adding batteries is very simple with the Enphase system. It just costs $$$$

As long as we have our coach parked in our driveway, we always have backup living quarters. If the house gets too hot, we move into the coach. Same if it gets too cold. As long as it doesn't get below freezing in the house, we're good. Last winter during the Big Freeze, it got down to about 45 degrees in the house after 4 days of outside temps in the low teens and single digits.

Re: Solar Question for Gurus

Reply #40 – February 12, 2022, 12:00:24 am

Chuck please keep us posted, I'm interested as well.

General question, can you get used solar panels, ie santan, and add micro inverters to any/most?

Re: Solar Question for Gurus

Reply #41 – February 12, 2022, 09:38:00 am

Update: Received our second bid yesterday. This one was done remotely by a salesman in Houston. He works for TriSMART - a regional company with good ratings. Solar Company Texas - TriSMART Solar
I know we have some Forum members in the TX gulf area, so if you know anything about this outfit, good or bad, let me know. Below is his proposal. Items different from the first bid (Reply #31) shown in RED.

System size: 14.22 kW
Estimated 1st year production: 26,157 kWh = 2180 kWh per month = 72 kWh per day
(36) REC Alpha 395 Pure Black, 132 half-cut "heterojunction" cells, gapless technology, 21.3% efficiency
(36) Enphase IQ7+ micro inverters
(1) Encharge 10 plus (1) Encharge 3 Storage System modules (AC coupled batteries, 13.44 kWh useable, lithium iron phosphate (LFP) chemistry)
Enpower Smart Switch
IQ Combiner (includes Envoy wireless communication module)
Enlighten mobile app
Unirac ground mount racking system
All material and labor required for complete turnkey installation, plus any permitting (if required)
25 year guarantee on all system components, 25 year Power Production Gaurantee

This system is projected to provide 105% of our average monthly power usage, based on last year's (2021) numbers. In theory, this should allow us to zero out our utility bill each month, assuming we have a plan with net metering and unlimited roll-over of credits. This type plan IS available in our area.

So, several improvements over my first bid. Bigger battery! More battery is good by any measure. The REC half-cut panel is leading edge solar technology, with some "theoretical" advantages over a conventional 60 cell panel like the LG that was listed in my first bid. The REC is pure black, which is seemingly a big deal to customers who mount the panels on the roof in view of their neighbors. Since I won't even be able to see the front of my panels from our house I couldn't care less about this aspect.

https://cdn.myced.com/images/Products/ZZ0000/ZZ3058/00000/ZZ305800017_DS.pdf

Got another salesman coming by today for my third bid. Then it will be decision time.

Re: Solar Question for Gurus

Reply #42 – February 12, 2022, 09:49:46 am

@Chuck & Jeannie I don't want to be the Richard on this thread but can you give us a ball park price on this setup? If your not comfortable can you pm me? Im also wanting to check into the tax credit on a system like this. I need to know if when your filing your taxes and your using the short form less then $25,100 in deductions. Is the credit separate and applied to the purchase.

Does the $2.75 per watt that Roger posted sound about right with the kit and installation?

Re: Solar Question for Gurus

Reply #43 – February 12, 2022, 10:23:51 am

I will post the final price on whatever final configuration we end up with. Then everybody can tell me how bad I got screwed.

I am finding that pricing is very, shall we say, fluid with these solar companies. They throw around all kinds of "discounts" and "rebates" that seem to change each time they open their mouths. And then when you talk about financing, it gets even more fun. They have a multitude of financing options, rates, payment periods, etc. So right now I don't know what my proposed system will cost - it is still up in the air.

The way, in general, they price out the system is as follows. They quote a really BIG system cost, then they subtract out all the discounts and rebates to finally arrive at a "financed amount". That is your bottom line cost for the system. You can finance the whole amount, or pay a cash down payment to reduce the financed amount, or pay the whole amount in cash. Your choice.

The 26% fed tax credit is based on the financed amount. You apply the credit to the bottom line of whatever tax form you use. If the credit is larger than your tax owed for the first year, you can carry over the excess credit to following years, until it is eventually used up. NOTE: I am not a tax expert! Always consult a tax professional for guidance.

Roger's ballpark price of $2.75 for a 14000 watt system would come out to $38500. My bids so far are coming in a lot higher than that. BUT, his price does not include a battery. Batteries add a really big chunk to the total cost. So it's hard for me to compare directly to his number.

Re: Solar Question for Gurus

Reply #44 – February 12, 2022, 10:24:13 am

My cost at $2.75 per watt is very likely to be quite a bit less than Chuck's will be. We have no battery component for overnight use or backup in case of power outages which are rare and short where we live. And this was about 4 years ago. We benefited from a 30% Federal Tax credit, a rebate from our local electric coop utility that was about 12% of the total cost, a buyback of excess power by the electric coop at retail rates, and some generous considerations from the solar instller.

Our is a roof top system which only allows orientation and angles of the roof and the house relative to the sun and the space available for panels. And we live in the woods. We did a lot of strategic tree trimming and removal for production reasons but some shade is inevitable. Chuck's will be a ground based system (something we cannot do in our township) in open spaces which allows better orientation for performance and as much space as they need for panels.

Every installation will be different based on where you are, where you can put panels, local buy back programs and assistance, finance options and much more.

The opportunity to significantly reduce our future electric costs and increases has worked for us. It may work for you as well. We hope this works for Chuck as well as it has for us.

Re: Solar Question for Gurus

Reply #45 – February 12, 2022, 12:25:29 pm

Eddie, you can only be a Richard if your name is Richard!

Re: Solar Question for Gurus

Reply #46 – February 12, 2022, 02:29:22 pm

Let me say that I don't consider myself to be a solar guru. I know something about it because I did my homework and have installed solar systems on my own home and on my coach. I have some direct experience, that's about all.

Our system was financed at the total cost minus the cost of permits. It was in 2 parts, one a short term zero interest balloon payment loan equal to the federal tax credit (30% of the total cost) payable in 18 months and the balance was a 10 yr 2.9%. Cheap money, we paid it off in 4 yrs.

By the way, your motorhome is considered a second home by the IRS and is a capital asset. If you make improvements they increase the basis value of the asset (initial cost + improvements). When you sell it, probably for a lower price than the asset value, you incur a capital loss which can be used to offset other capital gains.

So if you add solar panels, a solar charger or two, batteries for storage (think lithium), and all of the other components involved in the improvement to your coach, the total cost qualifies for the Federal tax credits, and increases your basis value for the asset (coach) just as if you had put them on your house or in your back yard.

Re: Solar Question for Gurus

Reply #47 – February 14, 2022, 11:10:10 am

I've been stuffing my old brain with solar info, trying to understand the ins and outs of planning a solar installation. LOTS to learn!

Along the way, happened on the chart below. Should be interesting to anyone planning a solar install on their coach. Where do you anticipate spending most of your camping time? Location will have a definite effect on solar output...which is why everyone wants to go BIG on the panel number/wattage. Of course, affording BIG is another matter...

NOTE: In case it is not obvious, the darker colors mean more "productive" sunlight per day = better performance from solar panels.

Re: Solar Question for Gurus

Reply #48 – February 14, 2022, 11:34:38 am

Enphase has a excellent free tool on their website. It allows you to plan a solar system (with storage) based on geographical location and power requirements. The cool thing is you can fine tune the system based on what exactly you want to power in a "off grid" situation, by adding and subtracting from a large list of items. This might even be helpful when planning a solar system for your coach. Will give you a rough idea what different electric devices require, power wise.

Fun to play with!

Enphase Energy- Power your house with Solar and Storage | System Estimator

Re: Solar Question for Gurus

Reply #49 – February 14, 2022, 11:48:05 am

After playing with the design tool mentioned in post above, I have decided to raise our sights and shoot for employing two 10 kWh Encharge storage modules in our proposed system. I have advised the 3 companies who have already submitted bids of this change. Waiting to see what they say...

I'm thinking about starting a GoFundMe campaign to finance this project...I'm sure our loyal Forum friends would be happy to contribute.

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