Should I / could I do this. Bootlegging AC lines.

Topic: Should I / could I do this. Bootlegging AC lines. (Read 1061 times) previous topic - next topic

Should I / could I do this. Bootlegging AC lines.

July 25, 2022, 03:11:50 pm

So this all comes from trying unsuccessfully for years to get our dash AC to work. Oh i does work just fine when it works or should i say holds a charge. Which could be a few weeks or maybe a few months, if we're lucky. Lots of new parts and tons on time spent for NO improvement because i do like to keep things original but i believe we're done with it. Done. ( unless one of you has that magic answer ).

What we're now looking hard at is something like the Cruise Air system out of Tempe Az. What I'm wondering is if i can simply cut those AC hoses and run a wire down the middle of them. It's a 12 volt system and I doubt i currently have a big enough wire going from the engine batteries to the front of the coach. Am i crazy, cause I've never read about anyone else getting power up front that way. Welcome all feedback......

Re: Should I / could I do this. Bootlegging AC lines.

Reply #1 – July 25, 2022, 04:19:12 pm

I think you need a proper refrigerant leak safari.
Find a AC Tech with good troubleshooting skills, likes challenges and has enough of an imagination to isolate and leak test the individual components and lines.

If the testing fails the last gasp is a refrigerant system sealant.

Re: Should I / could I do this. Bootlegging AC lines.

Reply #2 – July 25, 2022, 04:41:32 pm

You can get a can of die and put it in, that's what I did. I got it going last year and then never
needed it and tried it yesterday and it's blowing cold air.Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Re: Should I / could I do this. Bootlegging AC lines.

Reply #3 – July 25, 2022, 04:46:14 pm

Quote from: Bob & Sue – July 25, 2022, 03:11:50 pm

Am i crazy, cause I've never read about anyone else getting power up front that way. Welcome all feedback......

So you have established that you have a leak. Its a 27 year old system. I probably would fill system with 300 psi of dry nitrogen and start looking for leaks.
Absolutely need to isolate the leak and resolve. You say it works fine and that is good to hear. The fluorescent dyes do work to locate leaks. I know these can be frustrating and having a evacuation machine sure keeps the cost down. If you want to run any additional cables or lines, just follow the original routing, it really not that big a deal. I wouldn't hesitate to replace Freon lines if needed and the new one are much better than the original lines, but this means you have to have a crimping machine for ends. Guess if you did have a bad primary line you could pull it out and use it for a example at the line shop. I would also guess that the condenser fan is at the end of its life.
Could you list what has been done prior?
Scott

Re: Should I / could I do this. Bootlegging AC lines.

Reply #4 – July 25, 2022, 05:04:35 pm

In quick look the HD-12L requires 70A breaker and min #4 copper wire
HD-24L 50A breaker and min. #6 copper
HD-48L 30A breaker and min. #10 copper

Re: Should I / could I do this. Bootlegging AC lines.

Reply #5 – July 25, 2022, 05:11:24 pm

In my experience 90% of A/C leaks are at fittings, 9% are evap coils and condensers and 1% actual hose failure. Like Scott mentioned list what has been done for additional suggestions.

Re: Should I / could I do this. Bootlegging AC lines.

Reply #6 – July 25, 2022, 06:12:01 pm

Well... we had the system evacuated last year after i had replaced the AC pump, added 2 additional fans to the condenser, replaced the expansion valve, replaced the can thing ( accumulator?) forgot name and replaced the AC relays. They also recharged the system and added a dye to the system.

Then we drove to Arizona and it lasted for that trip but needed recharged for the return trip to Oregon. During that service he did the vacuum test and pressure tested to 450 lbs. held for 30 minutes. Oh and no dye showed up. And we soaped the heck out of all fittings.

This year we didn't use it on the trip south but sure did on the way back north. Before that trip we had it recharged again....and this time he added a stop leak to the mix. It worked for 2 weeks and then warm so. $$3#rmnd=24h/?.. said another way, Dam.

So the only things that haven't been touched are the evaporator and the hoses running the length of the coach. Just not sure i want to put another 500 into it.

I guess no opinions about using those AC hoses as conduit ?

Re: Should I / could I do this. Bootlegging AC lines.

Reply #7 – July 25, 2022, 06:18:53 pm

Quote from: Bob & Sue – July 25, 2022, 06:12:01 pm

I guess no opinions about using those AC hoses as conduit ?

I wouldn't even try. You will do better to just run the wire down the main cable tray.

Mike

Re: Should I / could I do this. Bootlegging AC lines.

Reply #8 – July 25, 2022, 06:30:48 pm

If you add up the cost of the unit and installation as I don't know how the heat from the condenser is going to get out of the cabin area. It might make you consider one more round of leak detecting. I have a similar unit to the one below and I can find evap coil leaks by sniffing the condensation hoses without disassembling any part of dashes.

Amazon.com: Refrigerant Leak Detector, Aprvtio ALD-100 Freon Leak Detector...

As an Amazon Associate Foretravel Owners' Forum earns from qualifying purchases.

Re: Should I / could I do this. Bootlegging AC lines.

Reply #9 – July 25, 2022, 06:54:17 pm

Okay little clearer picture. Its a huge system. I would add more dye. Evaporator leaks are tough to find and they are subject to corrosion due to condensation. I would be prepared to change the receiver dryer again and although its working when charged the expansion valve collect all the junk in the system. Pressures would tell you its condition. But not before you find the leak. Also when you have your UV light and sniffer double check the compressor again both active and inactive. If your tech is using a micron vacuum gauge this will tell if you have resolved your leak. Most techs want to slam in some parts and be done, these take a little more time to resolve. Dont give up and spend 4k on something you may be equally unhappy with. It can be fixed. Im not a fan of most additives so I shy away from them. Im sure some work
Scott

Re: Should I / could I do this. Bootlegging AC lines.

Reply #10 – July 25, 2022, 07:20:28 pm

All my leaks were the aluminum pipe going into the, compressor drier and condenser.
Some were leaking and the others would soon. All the new ones are steel pipe and the
ones for the compressor came from Foretravel. The shop I went to couldn't match the compressor
ends and he had all the other. He clamped all the ends back on my old hoses except the one from
the drier to the condenser as it was too short.

Re: Should I / could I do this. Bootlegging AC lines.

Reply #11 – July 25, 2022, 07:37:31 pm

Bob,
Trying to pull wire thru a rubber hose can prove to be a major P.I.A............You would need a good fish tape and plenty of wire pulling soap (like Yellow 77) ..... Personally I wouldn't do it, run new wires thru the same chase as the hoses. As mentioned above, I would fix your existing system, just need someone will the skills and equipment to find it. Hang in there and good luck.

Re: Should I / could I do this. Bootlegging AC lines.

Reply #12 – July 25, 2022, 07:55:37 pm

We all have had that dash air longevity problem. After our final fix many years ago, the dash air continues to bring cold to the front over the last 8 years, so figure we found the problem:

We put UV dye in the system, bought an inexpensive UV light, went out at night in a dark space, and found a leaking joint. Then the trick was to find someone with a portable manual hydraulic crimper to replace the leaking end.

Then our 10 years of our adding cans of refrigerant sitting in a pan of hot water was over. We also replaced a hose to condenser fan and filter dryer long before finding the last leak in the engine compartment.

One of the UV light problems is an old leak that was fixed may still glow, although usually shine lighter. Maybe wash connections to get rid of old dye leak?

A thing that has helped us especially in hot weather: Small digital thermometer with wired sensor placed near the dash evaporator coil down in the dash. Even when the air coming out does not feel real cold, the thermometer tells us if the system is working as best as it can. We also have a dash 12volt led wired to the engine compressor clutch, so we always know when the compressor is running, another thing to help us diagnose real time. Very encouraging to see evaporator coil temps of 40 degrees, even though we are still a bit warm up in the driver's seat.

Re: Should I / could I do this. Bootlegging AC lines.

Reply #13 – July 25, 2022, 08:08:13 pm

Try some Red Angel stop leak,it works,will not gum up system.Can get on Amazon.

Re: Should I / could I do this. Bootlegging AC lines.

Reply #14 – July 25, 2022, 08:11:55 pm

Quote from: Barry & Cindy – July 25, 2022, 07:55:37 pm

One of the UV light problems is an old leak that was fixed may still glow, although usually shine lighter. Maybe wash connections to get rid of old dye leak?

To remove old dye stains use this cleaner or something simular.
MAGNAFLUX Dye Penetrant Remover: Clear, 10.5 oz Aerosol Can - 3WU61|SKC-S -...

Re: Should I / could I do this. Bootlegging AC lines.

Reply #15 – July 25, 2022, 09:16:20 pm

Those long hoses are 27 years old. New barrier hose, fittings and o-rings. An evaporator and condenser aren't all that much money. And another receiver dryer.

Split Hydraulic A/c Hose Crimper Kit Crimping Set Hose Fittings W/ Cp-180...

Re: Should I / could I do this. Bootlegging AC lines.

Reply #16 – July 26, 2022, 01:12:58 pm

Quote from: Old Toolmaker – July 25, 2022, 09:16:20 pm

Those long hoses are 27 years old. New barrier hose, fittings and o-rings. An evaporator and condenser aren't all that much money. And another receiver dryer.

Split Hydraulic A/c Hose Crimper Kit Crimping Set Hose Fittings W/ Cp-180...

Out of stock, discontinued
iGeelee Manual Hydraulic A/C Hose Crimper Automotive A/C Hose Crimping Tools...

Cheap price in my opinion, didn't know they existed. No I didn't order one, but good to know

As an Amazon Associate Foretravel Owners' Forum earns from qualifying purchases.

Re: Should I / could I do this. Bootlegging AC lines.

Reply #17 – July 26, 2022, 01:28:14 pm

Checking on the crimper on Amazon.ca and this one came up. It's cheaper and would be
easier to use with one person. Then I found it on Amazon.com
IBOSAD Hydraulic AC Hose Crimper Hydra-Krimp 71500 Manual A/C Hose Crimper...

As an Amazon Associate Foretravel Owners' Forum earns from qualifying purchases.

Re: Should I / could I do this. Bootlegging AC lines.

Reply #18 – July 26, 2022, 01:34:21 pm

Well this was not the feedback that I expected.

Since I would rather retain the original equipment, that's what I'm going to do. The search now starts for an AC tech with some skills.
I just need to dive deeper into AC systems to understand a little better. Going to get some of the Red Angel stuff and look for a shop that uses ultraviolet light and snifter type equipment.

As usual the Forum comes through with great advise. Thanks to all. I will be referring back to this thread as I push forward.....

Re: Should I / could I do this. Bootlegging AC lines.

Reply #19 – July 26, 2022, 01:44:04 pm

Amazon.com: Dye Charge for R1234yf Systems,3 cans and Brass Charging...

Amazon.com: REALHUNLEE Auto Air Conditioner Leak Detector Tool Flashlight...

As an Amazon Associate Foretravel Owners' Forum earns from qualifying purchases.

Re: Should I / could I do this. Bootlegging AC lines.

Reply #20 – July 26, 2022, 03:02:20 pm

I know this thread has kind of ran off the track but this is the best place for this info.(untill we can get the hose crimping info split off) as several have PMd me about replacement ends now that we are talking about the crimper.

These ends are referred to as Beadlock A/C fittings. If you need replacement ends they make complete ends and just the ferrule. What you need will depend on the hose. Older coaches will have fittings that are reusable and you can use the ferrule (I prefer to change out the complete fitting and don't forget the "O" rings for 134 are special material). These fittings are made in like 4 major standard sizes generally speaking you will need either #6 & #8 or #8 & #10. I don't recall a #12 on any coach that I have tinkered on but there is always the exception to the rule. These fittings come in all configurations from straight, 45*,90s and with ports for high and low pressure places to hook gauges and sensors. I most likely have just scratched the surface and left something out but hope this helps those out that have ask.

Mike

Re: Should I / could I do this. Bootlegging AC lines.

Reply #21 – July 26, 2022, 09:55:45 pm

Reading this thread, and preparing my response has demonstrated once again that I work far longer than I should, in that I have the ATCO catalog but not the web site from which to purchase. That being said;

https://products.atcoproductsinc.com/category/beadlock-fittings

Harbor Freight has an electronic Freon leak detector for $60.

I'm installing a 1962 R-12 air conditioning system in my Studebaker.* Currently I'm sorting out the electric system, a job I've put off for far too long, but the monitor style evaporator takes up too much space under the dash for easy access to the wiring. So, sooner rather than later.

Yes I could have bought everything new but over breakfast while reading my e-mails I spoke the quiet part out loud, and once the cat's out of the bag, there's no stuffing it back in. I have a history.

Out of everything I've sourced, the one state of the art item will be the hoses and fittings. The Bead Lock fittings aren't a guarantee of no leaks, but if I do everything correctly and make a good Bubble Crimp with the appropriate tool, well, I'll be happy if I only need to replace one fitting. None would make me ecstatic.

Over the past 50 years, I've tried all of the "repair" techniques and I'm just too old to screw around with half-assed methods. So I'm going to purchase the correct crimping tool to use just once. If I had a local shop that cold make the hoses for me, I'd use them. So far this year the local industry had manufactured, Vidalia Onions, Watermelons, and we're waiting on the feed corn.

Art

*I said to myself, out loud as it turn out "12 to 14 weeks for a catalog item?" And Lynn's question made it clear that I had spoken out loud. The last time around, sometime in the early 1990s, Lynn heard me say into the telephone "Yes, I can send you another $300." And I heard "Another $300 dollars?" Yeah that was a long day.

Truth to be told, I'm happier with an AC system that looks like it came from the factory.

Art

Re: Should I / could I do this. Bootlegging AC lines.

Reply #22 – July 26, 2022, 10:09:09 pm

Theres a lot of failure points in the OE system. When new , it worked well enough and made it out of warranty. As time goes on all of the bits get corroded and heat cycled and will eventually leak . If you can get a good tech that doesnt mind crawling around , chasing leaks , Youre very lucky. I am not good enough to pay myself for a recurring problem . It is a looser for a shop to fix the OE system without a complete rebuild. IMHO. I would never take one in , even tho I know how to fix it for today , but knowing that I would see it again. I would have to eat the next repair .

I went the simple route. Minisplit over the door along with additional alternator and solar to drive it. I May have spent more cash but it works well and I'm not gong back.
Stock and OE has it's place and if the system is sound and passes the vacc test, it may work for a year or two at a time . When I was a tech at a Puegoet dealer, we pressurised the system and sprayed it down with soap . Much better than vac test.

Re: Should I / could I do this. Bootlegging AC lines.

Reply #23 – July 27, 2022, 08:29:59 am

Quote from: Protech Racing – July 26, 2022, 10:09:09 pm

Theres a lot of failure points in the OE system. When new , it worked well enough and made it out of warranty. As time goes on all of the bits get corroded and heat cycled and will eventually leak . When I was a tech at a Puegoet dealer, we pressurised the system and sprayed it down with soap . Much better than vac test.

Originally I wanted all new, but once over-ruled I took apart the Mk IV evaporator to see if I could repair the damage I had done during removal. I found an all copper tubing evaporator so a 60 year old unit is not a problem. The condenser died in the collision, so new was a given. $80 eBay. Either way for a 30 year old automotive system a new condenser and evaporator plus all new barrier material hoses with bubble crimped bead lock ends are the way to go. And that's the whole system.

Re: Should I / could I do this. Bootlegging AC lines.

Reply #24 – July 27, 2022, 11:50:42 am

Quote from: Bob & Sue – July 25, 2022, 03:11:50 pm

What I'm wondering is if i can simply cut those AC hoses and run a wire down the middle of them.

In answer to your original question, if you should decide to run a new wire and add a new system, what matters is how large are the hoses and the wires you would run. If the inside diameter of the hose is large enough to accommodate the wire (with room to spare), the only way to find out if you could run the wire is to try to push a fish tape through. If you can get the fish tape through and the hose is large enough, you can pull the wire back through. A lot would probably depend on how soft the hose is. If it is soft material the fish tape will more likely get caught, especially in any bends.

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