Hard starting

Topic: Hard starting (Read 984 times) previous topic - next topic

Hard starting

October 10, 2022, 08:43:27 pm

Hi
Had my fuel lines changed by foretravel.
Prior to that, overnight enough fuel would drain out that it took filling up secondary filter or cranking for long time (many 10 to 15 second and rest intervals) to start.
Once started it was good for the day! It would start within 5 second crank. Now after lines were changed it takes 10 to 20 seconds to start. I have not really timed it, but it is after my gut tells me to stop cranking! If i push it a little farther it will start. Or if i stop and rest, crank again it starts right up. It does this everytime, regardless of cold, hot, wait a day or a week.

I figure this cant be good for my starter. Initial investigation points at one way valve on the ecm cooling plate, or a weak engine position sensor EPS.

This is what i read on line. Be delighted to hear from anyone who has had long crank issue and solved it!

Re: Hard starting

Reply #1 – October 10, 2022, 08:58:05 pm

What elevation are you at now? Our house is at 5600' and starts are noticeably more difficult here than when we drop off the mountain.

Re: Hard starting

Reply #2 – October 10, 2022, 09:02:33 pm

Your loosing prime. I would start by checking all the fuel line connections especially since you mention they have all been taken off. I would blow a bit of air in my fuel tank and look for fuel leaks while doing it. Not a lot of pressure mind you. The check list is longer but this is where to start, including filter gaskets and filter base.

Re: Hard starting

Reply #3 – October 10, 2022, 09:42:33 pm

Which filter system do you have? If it is the Winn/Racor 300200 did the O rings get changed? If not they need to be checked and even if they appear good change them out with new. If a spin on filter check for double gasket. If your secondary filter has a drain cock check it out for a leak.

Mike

Re: Hard starting

Reply #4 – October 10, 2022, 09:48:12 pm

If you have the Winn filters push the air button at the rear of the coach before trying to start
the engine to see if that helps.

Re: Hard starting

Reply #5 – October 10, 2022, 09:50:52 pm

300200 screen orings
It is easy to miss the o-rings inside the upper and lower housing unless you know they are there. Even if you purchase a new pre-filter, it does not come with the smaller ones needed for the housing.

These are the ones I ordered. The ones on the right (114) go inside the housing. The ones on the left (208) go over the pre-filter.

208 Buna-N O-Ring, 90A Durometer, Round, Black, 5/8" ID, 7/8" OD, 1/8" Width...

114 Buna-N O-Ring, 70A Durometer, Black, 5/8" ID, 13/16" OD, 3/32" Width (Pack of 100): O Ring Seals: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
114 Buna-N O-Ring, 70A Durometer, Black, 5/8" ID, 13/16" OD, 3/32" Width...

As an Amazon Associate Foretravel Owners' Forum earns from qualifying purchases.

Re: Hard starting

Reply #6 – October 11, 2022, 09:25:00 am

New pre filter and o rings installed.
Racor system pump doesnt work.
Elevation is 1300, but it acts the exact same no matter where

Re: Hard starting

Reply #7 – October 11, 2022, 10:20:21 am

Air is getting into the system. If the Racor system pump does not work, fix it. Sure way of finding the leak is to use a Mitty Vac. You can isolate separate parts of the fuel system until you find the fault. $50 at HF: https://www.harborfreight.com/search?q=mitty%20vac

Pierce

Re: Hard starting

Reply #8 – October 11, 2022, 10:48:48 am

Quote from: Ldillow – October 11, 2022, 09:25:00 am

New pre filter and o rings installed.
Racor system pump doesnt work.
Elevation is 1300, but it acts the exact same no matter where

So after diving coach how much air is in your clear 300200 screen. If your electric purge pump is not working I doubt you can ever get all the air out. Several have converted to a FASS fuel system and I to plan to follow there lead. Currently your entire fuel feed system operates under a vacuum produced by the primary pump draws fuel in during operation. This is why it is so important to resolve all vacuum leaks leaking air into the fuel. Im not saying it wont run with leaks, just that the air reduces fuel pressure substantially during operation. Bad for everything IMO. After I returned from our 5K trip there was about a inch of air in the filter with the engine off. Everything has been recently replaced.

I would not want to leave the house with a non operable purge pump!!!!
Scott

Re: Hard starting

Reply #9 – October 11, 2022, 10:55:37 am

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – October 11, 2022, 10:20:21 am

Air is getting into the system. If the Racor system pump does not work, fix it. Sure way of finding the leak is to use a Mitty Vac. You can isolate separate parts of the fuel system until you find the fault. $50 at HF: https://www.harborfreight.com/search?q=mitty%20vac

Pierce

You say 'fix it'. Are you referring to actually fixing the unit or replacing it. I have yet to see a tear down on how to fix the Racor pump. My parent's unit is not functioning and would love to know how to fix it without replacing it.

Re: Hard starting

Reply #10 – October 11, 2022, 11:09:01 am

I believe the Winn fuel filter pump comes on when you turn the key on so if it isn't working
your transfer pump does all the work. I put the Fass fuel system on so the transfer pump has
fuel all the time.

Re: Hard starting

Reply #11 – October 11, 2022, 11:10:22 am

Quote from: Zach – October 11, 2022, 10:55:37 am

You say 'fix it'. Are you referring to actually fixing the unit or replacing it. I have yet to see a tear down on how to fix the Racor pump. My parent's unit is not functioning and would love to know how to fix it without replacing it.

Check to see if it is possible to fix it. If not, replace the entire filter assembly. The integrity of the fuel system is very important and may effect starting to injection pump longevity.

Short start cranking time extends the starter life, insuring that your starter won't let you down, possibly in a bad place.

Pierce

Re: Hard starting

Reply #12 – October 11, 2022, 11:48:46 am

Battery state of charge and starter condition are critically important for a quick start on the 320. It may seem to be cranking adequately but needs not only a fast spin, but enough electrical reserve while cranking to adequately power the electronics.
My sister's 320 was habitually slow to start. A new set of start batteries cut crank time br 75 pct. I am pressuring her to replace her functional starter with one of the new gen gear reduction delcos.

Re: Hard starting

Reply #13 – October 11, 2022, 11:55:21 am

Quote from: Ldillow – October 10, 2022, 08:43:27 pm

Be delighted to hear from anyone who has had long crank issue and solved it!

How old are your batteries and have you verified cables operate as intended. Power and ground resistance will cause slow rotational speed and slow starts. Put a volt meter across the leads from battery to end posts and check for voltage while cranking will show actual heath of the leads. Positive post to starter then negative post to ground somewhere
Do you have the original starter or the new improved gear drive starter?

ISM starter

Scott

Re: Hard starting

Reply #14 – October 12, 2022, 07:05:38 am

subscribing.

Re: Hard starting

Reply #15 – October 12, 2022, 09:47:15 am

It used to start fine.
New 8d battery, new 2 stage starter
Never heard that the winn system actually primed.
It didnt work when it started fine, so it did not change when the problem started.
1. Ran fine.

2. Died on freeway going down hill. Had to manually prime filters to get started.
Discovered winn pump not working. Once started ran great, sarted up in a few seconds. But if you let it sit overnight, would have to reprime filters, or crank for ever.

3 had fuel lines replaced. Now it starts the same way, whether turn off and start, or sit for a week. Takes at least 15 to 20 seconds to start, about the time i feel the starter should rest and start again.

I have a good crank, just takes a while, which is new since lines were changed. So my assumption is lines fixed some of the issue, but i feel i stillhave something going on.

Re: Hard starting

Reply #16 – October 12, 2022, 10:06:36 am

Don't assume the line change was done correctly. As I said, the MityVac eliminates the guess work. Cranking for 20 or 30 seconds will greatly reduce the life of the starter. If you have a heated screen on your Cummins, the engine should be running a about one second unless it's really cold.

Pierce

Re: Hard starting

Reply #17 – October 12, 2022, 10:52:51 am

He has an M11 and that engine takes at least 2 revaluations before it will start as it is
electronic. How are you priming the filters if the Winn pump is not working.

Re: Hard starting

Reply #18 – October 12, 2022, 09:17:29 pm

Here's an issue I had after changing the fuel lines and it took me over a year to figure this out. When changing the lines you need to pull the fuel tank half way out to access the center feed tubes and make the connections. In doing this you have excess fuel line/hose that will be looped/coiled on top of the tank when it goes back in place. I used to keep a window squeegee with an extendable handle on top of the fuel tank, you could feel it hitting the fuel lines when you slid it in, handle first. No big deal, wrong. The handle was pushing the already tightly looped fuel line tighter, kinking the hose to the point it was choking off the fuel supply. Anyhow, the worst part was it would run fine one day and the next day it was hard to start and would cut out at higher speeds or die at a stop light, it all depended on me washing the windshield and how I put away the squeegee!

I found it when I had a generator issue and thought it was fuel problem, not sure why I grabbed a flashlight and looked at the top of the tank but when I did I could see the 1/2" line for the big Cummins was kinked. Once I relaxed the loop it's been running like it should, starts at the count of 3 every time.

Your issue sounds more like fuel bleeding back into the tank. As suggested air is being let in from a lose hose or fitting allowing the fuel to drain back. In used an inline check valve on a motor that sat well above the fuel tank. that may be something to consider.

Re: Hard starting

Reply #19 – October 13, 2022, 11:07:08 am

Quote from: Mobius – October 12, 2022, 09:17:29 pm

Here's an issue I had after changing the fuel lines and it took me over a year to figure this out. When changing the lines you need to pull the fuel tank half way out to access the center feed tubes and make the connections. In doing this you have excess fuel line/hose that will be looped/coiled on top of the tank when it goes back in place. I used to keep a window squeegee with an extendable handle on top of the fuel tank, you could feel it hitting the fuel lines when you slid it in, handle first. No big deal, wrong. The handle was pushing the already tightly looped fuel line tighter, kinking the hose to the point it was choking off the fuel supply. Anyhow, the worst part was it would run fine one day and the next day it was hard to start and would cut out at higher speeds or die at a stop light, it all depended on me washing the windshield and how I put away the squeegee!

I found it when I had a generator issue and thought it was fuel problem, not sure why I grabbed a flashlight and looked at the top of the tank but when I did I could see the 1/2" line for the big Cummins was kinked. Once I relaxed the loop it's been running like it should, starts at the count of 3 every time.

Your issue sounds more like fuel bleeding back into the tank. As suggested air is being let in from a lose hose or fitting allowing the fuel to drain back. In used an inline check valve on a motor that sat well above the fuel tank. that may be something to consider.

Had a similar issue with my AH when changing the lines. Big ole kink in the line was causing fuel starvation. As previously stated, a mityvac may help to see if it is a fuel issue.

OP should also check for any leaks in the fuel pathway as I had hiccups with my m11 and had to replace the o-ring on the engine fuel pump. It was leaking fuel prior to the change.

Re: Hard starting

Reply #20 – October 13, 2022, 07:30:52 pm

Well, i actually timed it. It started in 8 long seconds. After warm up. It took 5 seconds. It used to start imeadiately, but the techs tell me 5 to 8 seconds is ok.
I am also pulling off the winn system and installing a 790r30 racor system, as also suggested by foretravel.

Re: Hard starting

Reply #21 – October 14, 2022, 09:02:57 am

Quote from: Ldillow – October 13, 2022, 07:30:52 pm

I am also pulling off the winn system and installing a 790r30 racor system, as also suggested by foretravel.

I replaced our Winn system with the Racor 790R30 five years ago and it has served me extremely well. That change solved my cold-weather starting issues.

Re: Hard starting

Reply #22 – October 14, 2022, 09:21:53 am

Quote from: Ldillow – October 13, 2022, 07:30:52 pm

Well, i actually timed it. It started in 8 long seconds. After warm up. It took 5 seconds. It used to start imeadiately, but the techs tell me 5 to 8 seconds is ok.
I am also pulling off the winn system and installing a 790r30 racor system, as also suggested by foretravel.

As much question as statement... I have heard or read that the M-11 ECM must see oil pressure before it will allow the engine to start, so it takes a little bit longer than other engines.

Mine takes around five seconds unless it is a quick restart. FWIW, I use the battery boost switch in cold weather or for the first start of the day.

Re: Hard starting

Reply #23 – October 14, 2022, 09:49:16 am

Quote from: oldmattb – October 14, 2022, 09:21:53 am

As much question as statement... I have heard or read that the M-11 ECM must see oil pressure before it will allow the engine to start, so it takes a little bit longer than other engines.

My understanding was that you are correct (but I now see in bf the post below that it's not correct). Mine starts rather quickly but definitely doesn't start instantly. I now see that the ECU needs information from the crankshaft position sensor before starting.

Re: Hard starting

Reply #24 – October 14, 2022, 10:36:47 am

It's not oil pressure the M11 needs to see, as on my coach I put a preluber on my engine so
I have oil pressure up before I turn the engine over. What needs to happen is the ECU needs to
get the reading from the crankshaft positioning sensor so it can do it's thing and that takes a
least 2 revaluations of the crankshaft.

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