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Alternative to AMP L Start charger with lithium house battery bank

My AMPL Start trickle charger appears to be on the way out. It started indicating a low battery condition on the start battery and beeps about every 30 seconds. Woke me up last night and after checking every possible source of the beeping and changing smoke alarm batteries, I put ear plugs in my ears and dozed fitfully. This morning finally found the beeping coming from the chassis battery bank and a fault reading on the starter battery voltage. However, the charger is putting out 13.1 volts to the start battery with house batteries resting at 13.7 volts (Lithium being charged by solar). So it's working but chirping.

Disconnected the ground wire on the AMP L Start, reconnected and started bleeping and blinking again. Apparently LSL Products of San Antonio is out of business. Website has a "no orders at this time" message. The AMP L Start was installed in February of this year and includes a lithium setting and engine run detect feature.

Choices are:
1. Buy from the dwindling stock of AMP L Starts left on the internet and hope for the best.
2. Buy an Echo Charger. Does not seem suitable for dissimilar battery banks (lithium and conventional)
3. Buy a Magnum ME-SBS battery combiner, but does not seem to be a "smart charger."
4. Buy a Battery Tender at 1.25, 3 or 5 amp configuration and run it off my refrigerator inverter which is always on. I don't know what size charger is required for three type 24 batteries in a series. It will be a pain to run the power line from inverter to chassis battery location for a battery tender/charger.
5. Buy a Victron Orion TR Smart 12/12-18 battery to battery charger that is a true three stage charger and configurable and controllable with blue tooth. Already have multiple Victron devices. It would be an 18 amp charger. Would power it from the 600 amp hour house battery bank with connections at the boost solenoid which is next to the chassis batteries. House batteries are charged via solar, another Victron DC to DC charger via alternator, and our Xantrex Charger/Inverter.

We're living in our coach full time. We also camp off grid enough to want something permanent, not an umbilical cord running from inverter on ground to chassis battery bank.

It's always something! Thanks to Al (Propman) who diagnosed my howling belt on the hydraulic pump while dropping in on him at Gonefishing RV Resort on my way to Albuquerque. New belt on way. Also saw Frank of Frank and Daisy there.



1998 36 foot U270 Build No. 5328 WTFE, 900 watts solar, Victron controller, B2B, bat monitor, 600 AMPH lithium with 2018 Chevy Colorado toad, SKP #110239, Motorcade #17781, 2021 Escape 17B for when Coach is broken down and campsites are too small, retired and full-timer since Dec. 2020. Part of RV family since 1963.

Re: Alternative to AMP L Start charger with lithium house battery bank

Reply #1 –
Patrick,

I am really sorry to hear of your Amp-L-Start problem.  I just installed one last summer.  I will keep my fingers crossed but also know where to look first if I hear an unidentified beeping.  Thanks for posting. 

Richard
Jan & Richard Witt
1999 U-320  36ft WTFE
Build Number: 5478 Motorcade: 16599
2011 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited w/Air Force One
Jan: NO5U, Richard:KA5RIW
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Re: Alternative to AMP L Start charger with lithium house battery bank

Reply #2 –

Patrick this is what I use
BatteryMINDer 2012-AGM - AGM Batteries Only - 12 Volt-2 Amp Battery Charger, Battery Maintainer, and Battery Desulfator for Odyssey, Optima * AGM Lead-Acid Batteries Amazon.com: BatteryMINDer 2012-AGM - AGM Batteries Only - 12 Volt-2 Amp...
It works off of my lithium house bank to keep my Odyssey start batteries charged. Seems to do a good job and it's installed under the bed.
And it's $100. I would not buy from a company that went out of business. Just the way I roll. The victron option would be a good one as well. I really really want to put a hundred amp Victron buck boost in to charge my lithium batteries from the alternator but unless I can find one less than $1,000 I'm not going to do it.
Bob

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'99 U320 40 WTFE
Build #5462,
1500 Watts Solar 600 amp Victron lithium
2012 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland Hemi
Instagram bobfnbw
Retired

Re: Alternative to AMP L Start charger with lithium house battery bank

Reply #3 –
Quote from: Journey, Roam, Explore –
I really really want to put a hundred amp Victron buck boost in to charge my lithium batteries from the alternator but unless I can find one less than $1,000 I'm not going to do it.
I have two Victron Orions that do exactly this (60amps total) and they can be had for well under $1k
1987 Grand Villa ORED
2001 U320 4010

Not all that wander are lost... but I often am.

Re: Alternative to AMP L Start charger with lithium house battery bank

Reply #4 –
Quote from: Elliott –
I have two Victron Orions that do exactly this (60amps total) and they can be had for well under $1k
Elliot I thought about doing it with the orions as well. I could not find anywhere information on how to wire them in parallel just that they could be.
Victron Energy ORI303100000 Orion 100 Amp Programmable Buck Boost DC-DC Converter
On sale $1,385.00 $1,177.25
100 Amp DC-DC converter
These are programmable to as well and they come in 50 amp and 70 versions too.
'99 U320 40 WTFE
Build #5462,
1500 Watts Solar 600 amp Victron lithium
2012 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland Hemi
Instagram bobfnbw
Retired

Re: Alternative to AMP L Start charger with lithium house battery bank

Reply #5 –
Quote from: Journey, Roam, Explore –
Elliot I thought about doing it with the orions as well. I could not find anywhere information on how to wire them in parallel just that they could be.
Victron Energy ORI303100000 Orion 100 Amp Programmable Buck Boost DC-DC Converter
On sale $1,385.00 $1,177.25
100 Amp DC-DC converter
These are programmable to as well and they come in 50 amp and 70 versions too.

From the battery isolator, one cable going from the isolator to each orion (2 cables total or 3 depending on the amount). Busbar the positive and negatives going to your house batteries.  Should be fairly simple.
1999 U320 WTFE #5586
2014 Subaru Forester 6sp
4000 watts of solar
650 aH @ 24v

Re: Alternative to AMP L Start charger with lithium house battery bank

Reply #6 –
Thanks. Yeah it's a little bit more complicated in my coach. My lithium house bank is in the previously held the washer dryer cabinet. It's incredibly difficult to get access to that area now to bring any additional cabling in. Space is tight in there as well which is why I was looking for single solution rather than multiple. Although I could put the converters in the cabinet above and just store them up higher that door doesn't have any ventilation in it. Which is why the lithium batteries and inverter do well in the washing machine cabinet. It's a louvered door.
'99 U320 40 WTFE
Build #5462,
1500 Watts Solar 600 amp Victron lithium
2012 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland Hemi
Instagram bobfnbw
Retired

Re: Alternative to AMP L Start charger with lithium house battery bank

Reply #7 –
Quote from: Journey, Roam, Explore –
Thanks. Yeah it's a little bit more complicated in my coach. My lithium house bank is in the previously held the washer dryer cabinet. It's incredibly difficult to get access to that area now to bring any additional cabling in. Space is tight in there as well which is why I was looking for single solution rather than multiple. Although I could put the converters in the cabinet above and just store them up higher that door doesn't have any ventilation in it. Which is why the lithium batteries and inverter do well in the washing machine cabinet. It's a louvered door.

Due to your movement of the house batteries, did you opt to not run a positive from the alternator/isolator? I believe we have the same coach and model year and would think it should be too difficult to run a 4 awg cable underneath the closet area from the bay. It would take a bit of work, but would be worth it if it means not running the genny while driving.
1999 U320 WTFE #5586
2014 Subaru Forester 6sp
4000 watts of solar
650 aH @ 24v

Re: Alternative to AMP L Start charger with lithium house battery bank

Reply #8 –
I've ordered a Victron 12/12-18. The AMP L Start was 15 amps, so should be a similar draw but with a lot more features. I will have to make up a mounting board to fit both Orions into that area. Advantage is that the cable runs will be very short. The AMP L start would disconnect with ignition signal to let alternator take over the charging. I think the Orion can be configured to do that as well. Or I can turn it off through the app when running down the road.
1998 36 foot U270 Build No. 5328 WTFE, 900 watts solar, Victron controller, B2B, bat monitor, 600 AMPH lithium with 2018 Chevy Colorado toad, SKP #110239, Motorcade #17781, 2021 Escape 17B for when Coach is broken down and campsites are too small, retired and full-timer since Dec. 2020. Part of RV family since 1963.

Re: Alternative to AMP L Start charger with lithium house battery bank

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Zach –
Due to your movement of the house batteries, did you opt to not run a positive from the alternator/isolator? I believe we have the same coach and model year and would think it should be too difficult to run a 4 awg cable underneath the closet area from the bay. It would take a bit of work, but would be worth it if it means not running the genny while driving.
Was installed by AM solar. I'm not sure exactly how they did it. I could come in from the closet that's next to the Washer dryer cabinet but would have to come in from the side rather than the back but yeah it's an option. Not sure why the previous owner that had this installation didn't plan on having the batteries charged by the alternator as well, but I suspect it had to do it cost. This was a pretty pricey installation and he was probably balking it any additional cost. Probably thought he could do it himself down the road.

'99 U320 40 WTFE
Build #5462,
1500 Watts Solar 600 amp Victron lithium
2012 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland Hemi
Instagram bobfnbw
Retired

Re: Alternative to AMP L Start charger with lithium house battery bank

Reply #10 –
FWIW, I just finished the install of paralleled non-isolated Orion 30amp chargers for the house battery side...eliminated the isolator, but kept the Trik-L-Start and boost capability. 

I pulled 2 14ga wires (EX3 & EX4) out of the extra wire loom (more on that later), and hooked up the Orion H-L jumpers to a switch I put into the Ether switch hole (never been used in 22 years), so that the chargers can be shut down when engine's off.  The Trik-L-Start voltage would activate the Orions, resulting in a goofy charging loop....Wheatstone bridge???  The switch solved that problem and shuts down the Orions completely.  I used the apps "soft off" mode initially, but the Bluetooth wouldn't reach the cab. 

The blue wire on a Klixon c/b on the left goes back to toad charging connection. 

My normal DOPH experience is that when finding the extra wires behind the dash, be aware there may be more than one wire that says "EX3"!!!  2 or more bundles start behind the dash and terminate in different places in the engine bay in my U320.  Check the entire number label on the EXT wires!!!  Caused me an extra day of head scratching.  I initially ran one wire from the L-pins to the switch to ground, but there was no continuity.  Discovered the wire faux pas after I'd pulled the second wire into the fray. 

Works as advertised now, and now I won't be worrying about frying my alternator or having to run the generator to top off the Battleborns after a dry camp night.  Green battery switch on to activate the Victrons after engine start.  Whew, I'm done with mods for this winter and heading back to MT for work soon.  Aloha, W&S.

Quote from: Realmccoy –
I've ordered a Victron 12/12-18. The AMP L Start was 15 amps, so should be a similar draw but with a lot more features. I will have to make up a mounting board to fit both Orions into that area. Advantage is that the cable runs will be very short. The AMP L start would disconnect with ignition signal to let alternator take over the charging. I think the Orion can be configured to do that as well. Or I can turn it off through the app when running down the road.
2001 4010 U320 build #5865 "Bluto-d-Bus" since 09/18
2006 Honda Element ESP Toad
Full timing since 2016 in Western MT
Copilot: Sitka
1975 GMC 260 Avion: sold

Re: Alternative to AMP L Start charger with lithium house battery bank

Reply #11 –
I ended up installing the Victron Orion 12/12-18 B2B for charging the chassis batteries in the electrical area at the foot of the bed. There wasn't room for two Orion B2B chargers next to the chassis batteries in the space for the original isolator. The 30 amp Orion charges the house batteries while running down the road and turns off when the engine is off.

It was about seven feet to make connections to the start battery and to pick up power from the house batteries at the boost solenoid. I used a couple of breakers as over current protection and to conveniently disconnect the two battery systems when necessary. The Orion needs to see some kind of signal connection on the LH pins. I used a normally closed switch that gets opened when the ignition is on, that way the B2B won't try to charge the chassis battery when the engine is running and mess up the sense voltage for the alternator.

The Orion 18 amp B2B may be overkill, but unlike the Xantrex Echo Charger it can be fully programmed to work with the Lithium house batteries. I can read the Orion on my phone through the Victron App. Most of the time it's at float. I set the B2B to go off if my house battery falls below 13.1 volts. When the house batteries are at 13.1 or above it charges the chassis batteries at the specified bulk, absorption, or float voltage I've programmed. So it's not unusual to see a charge voltage higher than the house battery voltage, but with low amp loads. Soon as I turn the ignition on, the B2B disconnects. I've noticed that my chassis batteries seem to spin my engine better than before as they are nearly always at optimal charge even when we were boondocking for a month or more. The flexibility and accuracy seems great, and once set up requires no intervention. Cost is just slightly above the Xantrex. I read on IRv2 that the owner of the AmpL Start and TrikL Start passed away and no one has taken over the company as of yet. 
1998 36 foot U270 Build No. 5328 WTFE, 900 watts solar, Victron controller, B2B, bat monitor, 600 AMPH lithium with 2018 Chevy Colorado toad, SKP #110239, Motorcade #17781, 2021 Escape 17B for when Coach is broken down and campsites are too small, retired and full-timer since Dec. 2020. Part of RV family since 1963.

Re: Alternative to AMP L Start charger with lithium house battery bank

Reply #12 –
I need to do something like this. My trickle start charger I recently found out it's plugged into an outlet not supply by the inverter.
'99 U320 40 WTFE
Build #5462,
1500 Watts Solar 600 amp Victron lithium
2012 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland Hemi
Instagram bobfnbw
Retired

Re: Alternative to AMP L Start charger with lithium house battery bank

Reply #13 –
Quote from: Realmccoy –

We're living in our coach full time. We also camp off grid enough to want something permanent, not an umbilical cord running from inverter on ground to chassis battery bank.
Since you say you live in your coach full time, I am curious how long you stay in one place. We normally stay no more than two weeks in one place during spring through fall and never even think about the start batteries. In the winter, we usually stay in one place longer, so I start the coach about once a month to run the engine (sometimes I take it out on the road). I have never had a problem with my start batteries discharging below a safe level or not starting the coach.
Dave and Kathy Bennett
2004 U270
Build #6253
1600W Solar
700 AH Battle Born Lithium
2015 Jeep Wrangler

No matter what happens, remember you always get the trip out of it.

Re: Alternative to AMP L Start charger with lithium house battery bank

Reply #14 –
I've never done a deep dive to find the parasitic draw on my start batteries but I could not stay parked for two weeks without needing a charge or boost. Count yourself fortunate. I would be curious to know if most can be parked for a month without problems. That might motivate me to start hunting for mistletoe in my start circuit.
1998 36 foot U270 Build No. 5328 WTFE, 900 watts solar, Victron controller, B2B, bat monitor, 600 AMPH lithium with 2018 Chevy Colorado toad, SKP #110239, Motorcade #17781, 2021 Escape 17B for when Coach is broken down and campsites are too small, retired and full-timer since Dec. 2020. Part of RV family since 1963.

Re: Alternative to AMP L Start charger with lithium house battery bank

Reply #15 –
Quote from: Realmccoy –
I've never done a deep dive to find the parasitic draw on my start batteries but I could not stay parked for two weeks without needing a charge or boost. Count yourself fortunate. I would be curious to know if most can be parked for a month without problems. That might motivate me to start hunting for mistletoe in my start circuit.
I started the engine today, since it had been sitting since the end of February. The voltmeter showed 13V before I started it, and it started without any problems. I ran it about thirty minutes and it showed just over 14V when I shut it off. I think if you can't go two weeks without a charge or boost, something is not right. I have always been able to start cars I have owned after weeks, sometimes even months, without charging. The start batteries in an RV should be able to do the same.
Dave and Kathy Bennett
2004 U270
Build #6253
1600W Solar
700 AH Battle Born Lithium
2015 Jeep Wrangler

No matter what happens, remember you always get the trip out of it.